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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: MattD30 on Friday 27 October 17 00:48 BST (UK)
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Is anyone able to check the parish registers of Pluckley for the christening of John Chambers between 1666 and 1670?
John Chambers married Susan Bourne in Egerton in 1690 and may have been from Pluckley as that is where his children were christened. Susan herself may have come from Pluckley or Egerton but I'm not sure yet.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks
Matt
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Hi Matt
I can't see anything in Pluckley but I can see three baptisms, one in Coldred but possibly too far away, one in Throwley which is about 8 miles from Pluckley, and one in Teynham 16 miles from Pluckley.
John Chambers baptised 13 Jun 1665 Throwley son of John Chambers
John Chambers baptised 31 Mar 1669 Coldred son of John & Susan Chambers
John Chambers baptised 19 Jan 1670 Teynham son of Margaret.
claire
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Hi Matt
I can't see anything in Pluckley but I can see three baptisms, one in Coldred but possibly too far away, one in Throwley which is about 8 miles from Pluckley, and one in Teynham 16 miles from Pluckley.
John Chambers baptised 13 Jun 1665 Throwley son of John Chambers
John Chambers baptised 31 Mar 1669 Coldred son of John & Susan Chambers
John Chambers baptised 19 Jan 1670 Teynham son of Margaret.
claire
Hiya
Yes the only one I've found so far is the John christened in Coldred in 1669, or rather I should say the only record I've got is of his parents marriage. His parents were John Chambers and Susan Browninge who married by Licence at Canterbury in 1666 (Licence dated 11 Sept 1666). According to the Licence he was 23 and of Coldred and she was 30 and (also) of Coldred (although I think she may have actually been from the nearby parish of Sibertswold).
Coldred certainly seems a bit too far from the Pluckly area though, but it is one to keep in mind.
Is there any sign of a burial for the John in Throwley? Or are there any siblings? If it's possible to eliminate him by 'killing him off' or work out if there was a particular set of names used in the family, then it might be easier to work out which John is the one I need.
If only John Chambers and Susan Bourne had married by Licence then there might be a clue as to where he came from.
To be continued.......
Matt
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Hi
No burial for John in Throwley but there is one more baptism - a sibling which does give the mothers name too
Christopher Chambers baptised 11 Aug 1667 Throwley, St Michael & All Angels and son of JOHN and ANNA Chambers.
This couple married by licence on 25 Jul 1663
Additional info
John Chambers from Throwley a husbandman, aged 25 - surname on licence spelt CHAMBARS
Ann Simonson from Throwley aged 22. On the licence it states she was from Little Chart ( which is very close to Pluckley)
Claire
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Hi
No burial for John in Throwley but there is one more baptism - a sibling which does give the mothers name too
Christopher Chambers baptised 11 Aug 1667 Throwley, St Michael & All Angels and son of JOHN and ANNA Chambers.
This couple married by licence on 25 Jul 1663
Additional info
John Chambers from Throwley a husbandman, aged 25 - surname on licence spelt CHAMBARS
Ann Simonson from Throwley aged 22. On the licence it states she was from Little Chart ( which is very close to Pluckley)
Claire
Hi Claire
Thanks for the update which I think might be useful. John Chambers married Susan Bourne in Egerton in 1690 and one of their sons was named Christopher (christened 1705 in Pluckley). Their eldest son Richard (my ancestor) married Elizabeth Wreight/Wright and their second son was also named Christopher. His brother, William, is my ancestor and he named one of his sons Christopher, as did one of his sons!
Do you know if John and Ann had any other children?
This certainly looks more promising than the other one.
Many thanks
Matt
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Hi
A quick look suggests a John Chambers & Ann went on to Pluckley sometime after the birth of Christopher.
This definitely looks like the family you are after
Edward son of John & Ann Chambers Bapt. 17 July 1677 Pluckley.
Looks like Edward married a Jane Wilson in Pluckley 10 Sept. 1707.
Richard son of John & Ann Chambers Bapt. 14 Feb 1672 Pluckley.
Thomas son of John & Ann Chambers Bapt. 20 Dec. 1674 Pluckley.
There is also the marriage of an Ann Chambers in Pluckley 1689 to a Robert Cheeseman - wonder if she could be a sibling ? - I can't see a baptism .
Looks like an inventory of John Chambers goods & effects survived - there is a document listed for the year 1708. He was buried 17 September 1708.
Also a burial for Widow Chambers on 24 Feb 1712. Both burials in Pluckley.
Claire
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Hi
A quick look suggests a John Chambers & Ann went on to Pluckley sometime after the birth of Christopher.
This definitely looks like the family you are after
Edward son of John & Ann Chambers Bapt. 17 July 1677 Pluckley.
Looks like Edward married a Jane Wilson in Pluckley 10 Sept. 1707.
Richard son of John & Ann Chambers Bapt. 14 Feb 1672 Pluckley.
Thomas son of John & Ann Chambers Bapt. 20 Dec. 1674 Pluckley.
There is also the marriage of an Ann Chambers in Pluckley 1689 to a Robert Cheeseman - wonder if she could be a sibling ? - I can't see a baptism .
Looks like an inventory of John Chambers goods & effects survived - there is a document listed for the year 1708. He was buried 17 September 1708.
Also a burial for Widow Chambers on 24 Feb 1712. Both burials in Pluckley.
Claire
Hi Claire
Thanks for this, it looks more and more like my lot. Interestingly I found a Will for John Chambers (1708) which I thought might be connected to my lot, but I wasn't sure until I saw your message mentioning the name "Robert Cheeseman". Robert is mentioned in this Will as John's "son-in-law" so I think that deffo ties this lot together.
Many thank for the help.
Matt
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Hi again,
This is possibly Anne's baptism, it's the only one I can find in the area
ANNE Chambers bapt. 13 Nov 1668 at Challock, daughter of John.
claire
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Hi again,
This is possibly Anne's baptism, it's the only one I can find in the area
ANNE Chambers bapt. 13 Nov 1668 at Challock, daughter of John.
claire
Hiya
Is this another child of John and Ann?
Matt
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Well I think so, and she went on to marry R Cheeseman
I think John & Ann had sons John & Christopher in Throwley, moved down to Challock and had daughter Anne and then moved on to Pluckley, where Anne married Mr Cheeseman in 1689.
Claire
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Well I think so, and she went on to marry R Cheeseman
I think John & Ann had sons John & Christopher in Throwley, moved down to Challock and had daughter Anne and then moved on to Pluckley, where Anne married Mr Cheeseman in 1689.
Claire
Hi Claire
Sorry I misread the first message about Ann. What you've said regarding Ann and Robert does make sense.
I think I might have found John's christening btw - 23 June 1639 Egerton, son of John and Jane. I can't see any sign of any Chambers in Throwley in the right period but might have missed some.
Also I found two Wills relating to the Simonson name in Little Chart. There is a Will for Richard Symonson dated 1688 which might be worth investing and then a Christopher Simonson in 1601. I've not found Ann's christening yet.
Anyhow I'll ponder that all 2mrw.
Many thanks again for your help.
Matt
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Two christenings for you to ponder, though the first is too early but possibly family.
Ann Simonson bapt. 4 Apr 1619 at Little Chart, daughter of Richard Simonson who married Mary Pack c1604 in Little Chart)
and the other baptism six miles away in Boughton Malherbe, which looks good
Anne Simmonson bapt. 7 Aug 1636 daughter of Richard & Joan Simmonson.
I think the latter couple married in Headcorn on 8 Nov 1630
Richard Simonson & Joan Bridge
There seems to be lots of Simonsons in this area, including a Thomas baptising children in Pluckley - but can't see an Ann, but these are just transcriptions.
Hope this helps some.
Claire
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Two christenings for you to ponder, though the first is too early but possibly family.
Ann Simonson bapt. 4 Apr 1619 at Little Chart, daughter of Richard Simonson who married Mary Pack c1604 in Little Chart)
and the other baptism six miles away in Boughton Malherbe, which looks good
Anne Simmonson bapt. 7 Aug 1636 daughter of Richard & Joan Simmonson.
I think the latter couple married in Headcorn on 8 Nov 1630
Richard Simonson & Joan Bridge
There seems to be lots of Simonsons in this area, including a Thomas baptising children in Pluckley - but can't see an Ann, but these are just transcriptions.
Hope this helps some.
Claire
Thanks for that info Claire. Simmonson/Simonson/Symonson is a fairly unusual name and if they're all centred around the same area I suspect these will be related.
The Ann Simmonson chr 1636 sounds like the best bet so far, although she would be older than she claimed on the marriage licence (not uncommon).
I'll look into this in more detail later on after work.
Many thanks and I'll let you know what I find.
Matt
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Update!
It looks like John Chambers who married Ann Simonson/Simmonson was born in Egerton in 1639. Egerton is next door to Boughton Malherbe and Pluckley.
John was the son of John Chambers and Jane Potman. They appear to have had another son named John christened in Egerton on 13 December 1635 but it looks like he died as there is a burial for him on 20 May 1637.
John Chambers and Jane Pottman were married by Licence and this makes very "interesting" reading!
"John Chambers - John Lee of Charing, husbandman, alleges that John Chambers, same parish, husbandman, about 20, son of Thomas Chambers of Battle in Sussex, husbandman, with his father's consent, intends to to marry Jane Pottman of Charing, spinster, about 22, daughter of Christopher Pottman of Challock who also consents. "The said Jane now being with child as she confesseth by the said Lee where upon the said Chambers is in the custody of the Bossolder until he shall marry with her whereby he cannot come to procure his licence" At Charing, Nov 25, 1634.
So it looks like the Chambers came from Sussex. I don't know what the term "Bossover" refers to but I suspect it might be some sort of parish constable. What do you think? It certainly makes interesting reading.
I am also pretty sure that the Ann Simonson who married John Chambers in 1663 is the one born in Boughton Malherbe. This is because the licence refers to her brother "John Sim'onson of Molash". I have found that the Ann who was christened in BM had a brother named John who was christened there in September 1639 which seems to tie up.
Anyhow that's all for now.
Matt
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That's a fascinating piece of your family history you've found.
I have absolutely no idea what that word is at all.. although I am looking just to satisfy my own curiosity.
I can't see anything resembling Bossolder, though as you suggest it was parish constables that kept the peace etc.
Glad it seems to be coming together :)
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That's a fascinating piece of your family history you've found.
I have absolutely no idea what that word is at all.. although I am looking just to satisfy my own curiosity.
I can't see anything resembling Bossolder, though as you suggest it was parish constables that kept the peace etc.
Glad it seems to be coming together :)
Hi Claire
It definitely is an interesting piece of info and I'd certainly like to know more both about John and also about the role of the "Bossolder".
I must admit I was surprised to see that John's father was from Sussex, I hadn't expected that at all. It just goes to show how useful marriage licences can be, and it's always worth checking them.
Matt
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It looks like John Chambers (b1669) was from Coldred. I've found that his parents, John Chambers and Susan Browning, were married by Licence in September 1666. The Licence states that John was 23 (so born c1643) and Susan was 30 (born c1636) and both were 'of Coldred' and although I haven't any christenings in Coldred I have found the following which seem possible candidates for both:
John Chambers chr 5 Feb 1643/44 Whitfield, Kent - son of John and Mary Chambers
Susan Browning chr 4 December 1636 Sibbertswold, Kent - daughter of Thomas and Mary Browning
Whitfield and Sibbertswold both border Coldred and it seems likely that both John and Susan moved to that parish. Also the marriage licence states that the bondsman was "Thomas Spaine of Whitfield, husbandman". It could well be that Thomas was someone who John knew and therefore it would make sense for him to come from the same parish or nearby. Thomas might even be related to John but I haven't looked into that yet.
I still find it odd that John and Susan were married so far from their home parishes (they married in Canterbury) but that appears to be the case based on the info in the Licence. I wonder why they moved to the Pluckley area after they married?
It looks like John had a sister named Joan who was born in Coldred in 1667.
Joan Chambers - chr 7 Apr 1667 in Coldred - daughter of John and Susan
There is also a Henry Chambers christened in Whitfield in 1678 who was also the son of John and Susan but I don't know if this is the same family yet.
Matt
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Hi
I've looked at the registers and there isn't anything else that fits as well as what you have found.
I've looked at the register for the baptism of John and it clearly states the year on the baptism as 1644.
Susans baptism is also showing up in Shepherdswell too, which is right next to Sibertswold, both being less than a mile from Coldred, so feel you are spot on with your findings :)
Possibly they moved around for work ?
I have to tell you there are lots of Thomas Spaines in Kent : although I think he married in Whitfield
Thomas Spaine mar. Parnel Gosbey 2 Jun 1659 Whitfield.
Claire
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custody of the Bossolder until he shall marry . I don't know what the term "Bossover" refers to
For info :- "Borsholder" Kent regional name for a police constable.
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That's brilliant :) I drove myself nuts trying to find out what that meant :)
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Hi
I've looked at the registers and there isn't anything else that fits as well as what you have found.
I've looked at the register for the baptism of John and it clearly states the year on the baptism as 1644.
Susans baptism is also showing up in Shepherdswell too, which is right next to Sibertswold, both being less than a mile from Coldred, so feel you are spot on with your findings :)
Possibly they moved around for work ?
I have to tell you there are lots of Thomas Spaines in Kent : although I think he married in Whitfield
Thomas Spaine mar. Parnel Gosbey 2 Jun 1659 Whitfield.
Claire
Hi Claire
I agree that the christening in Whitfield is the most likely one. I have found the christening transcribed online as 5 Feb 1643 and 5 Feb 1644 and that's probably because of the old style calendar that was in use then.
I think I've also found what looks like the marriage of John's parents:
John Chambers and Mary Luknil - married 24 August 1641 in Whitfield.
I am certain that Susan Browning was from Sibbertswold and she appears to have had two brothers:
George and George - christened 28 March 1641 Shepherdswell (I don't know if they were twins).
I'm going to see if I can find some info on these in Wills and Marriage Licences in case they hold any more info.
I wonder if Thomas Spaine was a relative of either John or Susan?
I also now think that the Henry Chambers who was christened in Whitfied in 1678 must be part of this family as I can't see any other possible parents for him.
I now think that the John Chambers who married Ann Simonson can't be part of my family line as it looks like my John Chambers was from a different area. It just goes to show how awkward things get when there are lots of people marrying around the same time, all called "John"
Anyhow my next task is to see if I can find anything else of the Brownings or on Mary Luknil which might provide clues. I also want to try to trace Susan Bourne who married John Chambers (chr 1669) in 1690. Their marriage appears online twice, once with her name as Bourne and once as Bourke. I am unsure which is the correct spelling though.
Matt
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Hi
I've looked at the registers and there isn't anything else that fits as well as what you have found.
I've looked at the register for the baptism of John and it clearly states the year on the baptism as 1644.
Susans baptism is also showing up in Shepherdswell too, which is right next to Sibertswold, both being less than a mile from Coldred, so feel you are spot on with your findings :)
Possibly they moved around for work ?
I have to tell you there are lots of Thomas Spaines in Kent : although I think he married in Whitfield
Thomas Spaine mar. Parnel Gosbey 2 Jun 1659 Whitfield.
Claire
Hi Claire
I agree that the christening in Whitfield is the most likely one. I have found the christening transcribed online as 5 Feb 1643 and 5 Feb 1644 and that's probably because of the old style calendar that was in use then.
I think I've also found what looks like the marriage of John's parents:
John Chambers and Mary Luknil - married 24 August 1641 in Whitfield.
I am certain that Susan Browning was from Sibbertswold and she appears to have had two brothers:
George and Henry - christened 28 March 1641 Shepherdswell (I don't know if they were twins).
I'm going to see if I can find some info on these in Wills and Marriage Licences in case they hold any more info.
I wonder if Thomas Spaine was a relative of either John or Susan?
I also now think that the Henry Chambers who was christened in Whitfied in 1678 must be part of this family as I can't see any other possible parents for him.
I now think that the John Chambers who married Ann Simonson can't be part of my family line as it looks like my John Chambers was from a different area. It just goes to show how awkward things get when there are lots of people marrying around the same time, all called "John"
Anyhow my next task is to see if I can find anything else of the Brownings or on Mary Luknil which might provide clues. I also want to try to trace Susan Bourne who married John Chambers (chr 1669) in 1690. Their marriage appears online twice, once with her name as Bourne and once as Bourke. I am unsure which is the correct spelling though.
Matt
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Hi
When you mention the double baptism in 1641 of the Browning brothers did you mean Henry & George ? You have George and George.
My transcription says twins.
Susan BOURNE or BOURKE - I can't see any baptism with either surname, nearest I can find are these
Susan Birch bapt. 2 Jun 1672 Whitfield dau. of John and Susan
and another in Fordwich which is quite a distance from the Whitfield area
Susan Burch bapt. 28 Dec 1667 Fordwich dau of Witt ? and Elizabeth.
Have had no luck at all with the Luknil surname
Claire
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Hi
When you mention the double baptism in 1641 of the Browning brothers did you mean Henry & George ? You have George and George.
My transcription says twins.
Susan BOURNE or BOURKE - I can't see any baptism with either surname, nearest I can find are these
Susan Birch bapt. 2 Jun 1672 Whitfield dau. of John and Susan
and another in Fordwich which is quite a distance from the Whitfield area
Susan Burch bapt. 28 Dec 1667 Fordwich dau of Witt ? and Elizabeth.
Have had no luck at all with the Luknil surname
Claire
Hi Claire
Yes that was a typo on my part, I did mean Henry and George. Like you I've found Susan's name recorded as both Bourne and Bourke and I suspect this may be a transcription errors.
I hadn't considered Birch as a variation though and so I'll look into that one. The Susan Burch christened in Fordwich is probably the daughter of William (shortened to Will).
It's worth remembering that John and Susan were married in Egerton which isn't near Whitfield, or Coldred (I don't know how far it is from Fordwich). I wonder if Susan might have come from that parish or near there.
Matt
Matt
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Hi Matt
Yes Egerton is a fair way from Whitfield & Fordwich.
There are two earlier ones, but these would make her quite a bit older :-\
Susan BARKES bapt. 16 Sept. 1751 at Canterbury, St Mary Breadman, Kent, dau. of Miller Barkes
Susan BARKES bapt. 15 Apr 1655 Sandwich , St Peter dau of Raman.
Claire
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Hi Matt
Yes Egerton is a fair way from Whitfield & Fordwich.
There are two earlier ones, but these would make her quite a bit older :-\
Susan BARKES bapt. 16 Sept. 1751 at Canterbury, St Mary Breadman, Kent, dau. of Miller Barkes
Susan BARKES bapt. 15 Apr 1655 Sandwich , St Peter dau of Raman.
Claire
Hello again!
I think I may have cracked the puzzle. I've just checked to see if the Susan who was christened in Whitfield had any siblings. This is what I found
William [also down online as just Will] - christened 6 October 1673 Whitefield
Mary - christened 12 January 1676 Whitfield
Thomas - christened 26 October 1678 Whitfield
I was still unsure as the name Birch/Burch didn't seem similar to Bourne/Bourke in any way. However I then check for the marriage of the parents [John and Susan] and I think I've found the answer.
John Birch married Susan Spame in Wootton on 4 August 1664 [according to Familysearch]. The name "Spame" sounded familiar to me and after checking my notes I found a clue.
John's parent's John Chambers and Susan Browning were married by Licence in 1666, and the bondsman was one "Thomas Spaine of Whitfield" - could the names Spaine and Spame be connected?
As John Chambers and Susan Browning were married by Licence I wondered if Susan Birch's parent's had also been married by Licence. Here's the answer
"John Birch, of Coldred, husbandman, 27, bachelor, whose parents consent, and Susan SPAINE, of "Wolton", virgin, 18, whose father, Bartholomew Spaine, [of] same parish, husbandman, consents. At "Wolton" 15 July 1664"
"Wolton" is probably the same place as "Wootton" which borders Sibertswold (where the Brownings came from) and is also not far from Colded and Whitfield (which border each other).
So it looks like Bourn/Bourke probably Birch badly transcribed, and the first Susan you mentioned is probably the one I'm after. Spame is clearly a bad transcription of Spain/Spaine. I'm going to see if there are any Wills for any of the Birches or Spaines as well.
The pieces do seem to be coming together.....
Matt
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That's fantastic research :)
Glad it's coming together.
Found some variants of Luknil, but not in Kent, but quite near in London.
- Luckenill, Luckenhill or Luckenbill. But nothing in Kent.
Claire
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That's fantastic research :)
Glad it's coming together.
Found some variants of Luknil, but not in Kent, but quite near in London.
- Luckenill, Luckenhill or Luckenbill. But nothing in Kent.
Claire
Hiya
Yes it does seem to be coming together, thanks in part to the marriage licences which I find very useful as they give lots of info.
I don't know where Bartholomew was from yet but it looks like he was married to a woman named Ann Rafill.
John Birch seems to have been christened in Coldred on April 1636, the son of another John and Constance Birch. He may have had a brother named William who was born in 1639, and who was also married by Licence in 1674.
On the subject of Luknil, I wondered of it could be a variation of Luckhill, or Lucknell?
Anyhow that's all from me.
Many thanks for the help
Matt
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Hi
A possible for Bartholomew
Bartholomew Bapt. 30 Aug. 1615 Westbere, Kent, son of Thomas SPAINE.
A brother Thomas was also baptised 27 Sept. 1612.
The baptisms are also showing up in the parish registers of Ripple, Kent too. These gave a bit more info that the residence was Rodmersham.
Claire
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Hi
A possible for Bartholomew
Bartholomew Bapt. 30 Aug. 1615 Westbere, Kent, son of Thomas SPAINE.
A brother Thomas was also baptised 27 Sept. 1612.
The baptisms are also showing up in the parish registers of Ripple, Kent too. These gave a bit more info that the residence was Rodmersham.
Claire
Hi Claire
I found those two christenings myself last night. I suspect the one in Westbere is probably more likely given that it is closer to Littlebourne. Bartholomew's christening also appears in the PRs of Ripple so perhaps he (and any siblings) was also christened there, or perhaps he was re-christened when the family moved.
I have also found that Bartholomew left a Will and even more luckily there is a transcript of the Will on Rootsweb which is useful. Bartholomew seems to have lived a long life, given that his Will was written on 10 February 1697, and Probate was granted on 1 October 1698.
There are some notes attached to the bottom of the Will by the transcriber which give some more clues and bits of information. Bartholomew married Anne Rafill on 3 December 1641 in Patrixbourne, Kent. She predeceased him and was buried in Wootton on 18 October 1685.
In the Will Bartholomew names his sons Richard Spaine (who he names as executor), and Bartholomew, as well as his grandchildren Bartholomew Spaine, Augustine Spaine, and John Spain (children of his son Bartholomew). Interestingly he doesn't mention his daughter Susan (married to John Birch) so perhaps she had died by then.
If Bartholomew was born in 1615 then he would have been about 83 when he died which was fairly old for those days.
I also think I've found the christening of Bartholomew's son in law John Birch. John appears to have been christened in Coldred on 3 April 1636 (which fits with his age on the marriage licence). His parents appear to have been John and Constance Birch (spelt Burch on the christenings). I've also found that John Burch snr died in 1679 and also left a Will. The Will mentions John's wife Constance, and his sons John and William, as well as mentioning that his son John had six children.
I'll let you know if I come up with anything else.
Matt