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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: BronwenS on Friday 27 October 17 07:24 BST (UK)
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I have a big quandry over how the two wives of James Brock fit into the timeline. James married Ann McCartney in 1817. Between 1818 and 1832 they had 9 children. In 1832 he married Mary/Marjory Fletcher/Wright (Edinburgh) they had a child James born in 1832 and subsequent children. From the 1841 census I assume that some of Ann's children were living with James and Mary. I have not managed to find birth certificates for any of the second lot of children at all.
Hope this makes sense but not sure where or how to find out what happened to Ann McCartney/Brock.
thanks Bronwen Summers Ch.Ch. N.Z.
James Brock husband of Ann McCartney (died 1828) and then Mary Fletcher/Wright (James son of Isabella Hamilton & Thomas Brock)
B: 1788???
M:1817 June 20th, Ann McCartney, Barony (register to hand)
M:1832 March 14th Mary Fletcher (register to hand)
D:1866 July 1st aged 78, 48 Muir Street, paralysis for 19 days, Hamilton, Lanarkshire, Scotland, weaver, son Alexander Brock signed (register to hand) No details about this wife at all.
Census
1832 cotton weaver at time of 2nd marriage
1841 James 50, cotton hand loom weaver, Meady Fletcher 40 (not born in county), John 22 cotton hand loom weaver, James 9, Alexander 6, Jean 3
1851 23 Quarry Road, James 60, Mary 50 weaver’s wife, John 32, Betty 22 weaver’s daughter, Alexander 19, Jane 10 weaver’s daughter, James 16. All males listed are weavers. Father and children all born in Hamilton (Mary was born in Edinburgh)
1861 11 John Street, James 70, hand loom silk weaver, Margot 63 Pirn winder - someone who wound the yarn onto large wheel like bobbins which were then used to feed the cotton wheels hand loom cotton, Alexander 26 hand loom cotton weaver
Ann McCartney wife of James Brock
B:
M:1817 June 20th, James Brock, Shopkeeper, Barony (register to hand)
D:
Children 9
1818 April 13th b May 2nd John Brock, Barony, Glasgow Child 1 (register to hand)
1820 Feb 2nd Jean Brock, Gorbals (register to hand)
1821 June 3rd James Brock (Brok), Gorbals (register to hand)
1823 June 22nd James Brock, Gorbals (register to hand)
1825 July 10th Walter Brock, Gorbals
1825 July 10th Elizabeth Brock, Gorbals
1826 Oct 1st – 1828 Anne Brock, Gorbals (both registers to hand)
1829 Nov 1st Robert Brock, Gorbals (register to hand)
1832 June 10th Sarah Agnes Brock, Gorbals (register to hand)
Mary/Marjory Fletcher (Wright) wife of James Brock and mother of Jane Brock
B:(can’t find looked for Wright and Fletcher in Edinburgh between 1895 and 1815)
M:1832 March 14th James Brock (register to hand)
D:1872 June 8th 7 Portland Place, Hamilton, 72 years old, died of chronic bronchitis, widow of James Brock, silk weaver, son Alexander Brock, 4 Whitehall Street, Glasgow (register to hand)
Children 5 (can’t find on Scotland’s people) this information from the census
1819 John Brock, Barony, Hamilton, Scotland (child of Ann McCarthy?)
1829 Betty Brock, Gorbals,Hamilton, Scotland (child of Ann McCarthy?)
1832 James Brock, Hamilton, Scotland
1835 Alexander Brock, Hamilton, Scotland
1836 Dec 19th a female child to James Brock, born in Glasgow? Not sure of whether this is part of this family or not.
1839 Jane/Jean Brock (Summers by marriage), Hamilton, Scotland ??– her death certificate says her mother was Marjory Brock, previously Fletcher and Wright
Census
1871 Marjory Brock, 2 Leechlee Street, Hamilton, Lanarkshire, widow aged 69 born in Edinburgh (no other details given)
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Are you sure that the same James Brock married both women? James and Ann McCartney had a daughter (Agnes) born in Barony in June 1832 so Ann can't have died in 1828, as you state, and James would not have been free to marry Marjory in March 1832. In 1851 census children listed ( earliest being John b1819) are all shown as born in Hamilton. Hamilton and Barony are miles away from one another geographically and therefore very unlikely this John is the one born in Barony in 1818 to James and Ann.
Isobel
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Thanks isobel.
Anne was the daughter who I had thought was born in 1826 and died in 1828 in Gorbals, I have both the registers for this. (I don't think her death is correct either, because she was too old I see). So I wasn't thinking that one was the mother.
The thing that has me stuck on this is the supposed second wife has children who are the names of the first wife's children on the census.
Thanks for your other comments on this I will have to look again, to ascertain which is the right one. Have you any idea why I cannot seem to find the children of Mary/Majory on scotlands people - their births that is.
Regards Bronwen
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The thing that has me stuck on this is the supposed second wife has children who are the names of the first wife's children on the census.
There are some names that are so common that almost every family has them: Alexander, James, John and William for boys; Elizabeth (Betty), Jane/Jean and Margaret for girls.
Have you any idea why I cannot seem to find the children of Mary/Majory on scotlands people - their births that is.
Because either their baptisms were never recorded or, if recorded, the record has not survived. There is any number of reasons why this might happen, ranging from parents not bothering to a register being destroyed in a fire. Estimates vary of the number of baptisms missing from the readily available records.
My own tree has 5428 people born in Scotland before 1855 with at least one parent's name known to me. 1310 of these people's baptisms are missing from the readily available records, i.e. SP. That is almost a quarter. There might be a few more in episcopal church registers, if I can find them, or in the small number of registers held by the National Records of Scotland which SP does not have permission to publish, but I doubt that even if I did, it would make a significant difference.
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Many thanks Forfarian. The ages of the people on the census in '41 mean they cannot be the 'second' wife's children. John is 22 at that point.
The one thing I really did wonder about was that it says he was a shopkeeper for the first marraige, when later he was a weaver and that seems more likely.
cheers Bronwen
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The other thing I have that is interesting is this on Scotland's people. Is one likely to be a separate entry for a baptism?
BROCK JOHN JAMES BROCK/ANNE MCCARTNEY FR426 (FR426) M 13/04/1818 644/2 20 81 Gorbals
BROCK JOHN JAMES BROCK/ANN MCCARTNEY FR1395 CHILD 1 (FR1395) M 02/05/1818 622/ 50 440 Barony
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In the FreeCEN transcription of the 1841 census, in Glasgow, there are James Brock, 50, tobacconist; Ann Brock, 45, born Ireland; John, 20; Jane, 20; Eliza, 15; Sarah Ann#, 9.
#Ann and Agnes are often used interchangeably.
In 1851, in Glasgow, is a household consisting of James Brock, 40*, upholsterer, born Old Kilpatrick; Anne Brock, wife, 58, born Ireland; Sarah A Brock, daughter, 18, born Glasgow.
*This looks like an error of some sort. The original may clarify it.
There is a death of an Ann McCartney, other surname Brock, aged 87, in Gorbals in 1881. Assuming her age at death is accurate she would have been born in 1793/4.
Therefore I think that the James Brock married to Marjory Fletcher/Wright is a completely different James Brock, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Anne McCartney.
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The other thing I have that is interesting is this on Scotland's people. Is one likely to be a separate entry for a baptism?
BROCK JOHN JAMES BROCK/ANNE MCCARTNEY FR426 (FR426) M 13/04/1818 644/2 20 81 Gorbals
BROCK JOHN JAMES BROCK/ANN MCCARTNEY FR1395 CHILD 1 (FR1395) M 02/05/1818 622/ 50 440 Barony
This is two different records of the same event. If you look at the IGI at www.familysearch.org you will see that the record from Barony parish gives both the DoB and the date of baptism, but the Gorbals one only the DoB. You need to look at both originals to get the full information.
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Okay thanks for all of that.
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There are two John Brocks born about 1819 in the 1851 census. There is the one you already have living with James and shown as born Hamilton and another living in Gorbals, Glasgow who is a Tobacco Spinner married to a Christina with a daughter Ann McC Brock age 5. She would appear to be Ann McCartney Brock born 1845 in Gorbals to James Brock and Christina nee Gray. The Hamilton born John ( who married Barbara Forrest) went to Canada and died there. His gravestone gives a precise age down to the number of days and this does not tally with the birth entry you have for John born in Barony.
I agree with Forfarian that these are definitely two different families.
Isobel
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Thanks. I am not sure that that adds up given what I already have.
The John Brock I have was born to James & Ann Brock (McCartney)
1818 April 13th b May 2nd John Brock, Calton, Barony, Scotland
A John Brock appears on the 1841 census see below he is 22 and the parents are listed as James & Mary Brock (Fletcher) who didn't marry until 1832 I have the register cert for that and the possible first marraige.
1841 Lamb St, Gorbals, Hamilton, Lanark, James 50, cotton hand loom weaver, Meady Fletcher 40 (not born in county), John 22 cotton hand loom weaver, James 9, Alexander 6, Jean 3 in 1841 census.
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James Brock may well have been married before he married Mary Fletcher, but it wasn't to Ann McCartney. That is a completely different family group.
The best way to try and find the name of any first wife would be to find a Scottish marriage or death certificate for one of the possible children of that first marriage i.e. John ( who appears in the 1841 and 1851 census with James and Mary) or Betty ( who appears age 22 in 1851 with James and Mary). John appears to have married Barbara Forrest but this was before the start of civil registration in 1855 so there is no certificate to check. He emigrated to Canada with His wife and children sometime between 1861 and 1871 and died in Huron, Ontario in 1894. Unfortunately his death certificate has no parent details on it. I can't find anything at all on Betty before or after 1851.
Isobel
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Thanks. I am not sure that that adds up given what I already have.
Not surprising. If you try to add two (James Brock and Ann McCartney) and two (James Brock and Mary Fletcher) you are bound to get five.
The John Brock I have was born to James & Ann Brock (McCartney)
1818 April 13th b May 2nd John Brock, Calton, Barony, Scotland
Yes, so far so good. There is a family in Warwick Street, Glasgow in 1841 comprising James Brock, Ann Brock, John Brock, aged 20, Jane Brock, 20, Eliza Brock, 15 and Sarah Ann Brock, 9. These match the names and ages of the children of James Brock and Ann McCartney. I have already pointed out that the names Ann and Agnes are used interchangeably, that Sarah A, 18, is with James and Ann Brock in Glasgow in 1851, and that Ann McCartney or Brock died in Glasgow in 1881. Therefore not only did Ann McCartney not die before 1832, she was alive and living with her husband in Glasgow 18 years later, and she lasted another 30 years after that. John's age is spot on for the son of James Brock and Ann McCartney, because adults' ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years in 1841. Therefore it looks as if the John Brock living with James Brock and Ann McCartney is their son and it follows that the one living with James Brock and Mary Fletcher is not the son of Ann McCartney.
A John Brock appears on the 1841 census see below he is 22 and the parents are listed as James & Mary Brock (Fletcher)
No. He is in the same household as James Brock and Mary Fletcher. There is nothing to say that he is the son of either. If he is James' son he is unlikely to be Mary's, as James and Mary had only been married 8 years and he is 22, so this James Brock may well have been married twice, but his first wife is not Ann McCartney. John could even be Mary's son by her first husband, having taken his stepfather's surname.
I don't understand why you are so determined that the James Brock who married Ann McCartney is the same person as the James Brock who married Mary Fletcher or Wright. The 1851 census says that all the latter's family were born in Hamilton, while the children of James Brock and Ann McCartney were born in Glasgow (Calton/Barony/Gorbals). This on its own is enough to show that they are two different families, even without the overlap of dates.
1836 Dec 19th a female child to James Brock, born in Glasgow? Not sure of whether this is part of this family or not.
As this child was born in Glasgow, not in Hamilton, it is more likely that she was another daughter of James Brock and Ann McCartney than that she was a daughter of James Brock and Mary Fletcher.
The one thing I really did wonder about was that it says he was a shopkeeper for the first marraige, when later he was a weaver and that seems more likely.
It makes perfect sense unless you think they are the same individual.
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PS I strongly suggest that you take a look at the death certificates of James Brock in Gorbals in 1876, Ann McCartney or Brock in 1881, and of John Brock in 1883 in Gorbals, and see what they tell you.
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Thanks, sorry to be so frustrating I am just trying to get my head around this. I will look at the certificates you suggest I do have a death certificvate for James that I thought was him with a son Alexander signing.
1866 July 1st aged 78, 48 Muir Street, paralysis for 19 days, Hamilton, Lanarkshire, Scotland, weaver, son Alexander Brock signed (register to hand). It does have Mary in the '71 census as a widow.
I need to track down John Brock listed on the 1841 census with James & Mary's children. It does have a tick to the query about where he is born and it is the same as James and the children.
Thanks Bronwen Ch.Ch. NZ
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Thanks, sorry to be so frustrating I am just trying to get my head around this. I will look at the certificates you suggest I do have a death certificvate for James that I thought was him with a son Alexander signing.
But James Brock and Ann McCartney didn't have a (recorded) son named Alexander.
I need to track down John Brock listed on the 1841 census with James & Mary's children.
Why? Isobel has already found that he married Barbara Forrest in 1845, emigrated to Canada and died in Huron Ontario.
Which of all these Brocks is your ancestor?
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1841 Lamb St, Gorbals, Hamilton
You need to look at the original of this. Gorbals is a parish in Glasgow, and Hamilton is a parish elsewhere in Lanarkshire. They are mutually exclusive; a place in Gorbals cannot be in Hamilton, and a place in Hamilton cannot be in Gorbals.
The SP index to the 1841 census lists them in Hamilton.
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The OP is interested in the antecedents of Jane Brock who married John Summers in Hamilton in 1859. She already knows from her death certificate that she was the daughter of James Brock and Margery Fletcher. The information she has already sourced regarding James Brock and Ann McCartney is not relevent to the family line she is researching. Checking the death certificates of James and Ann nee McCartney is therefore a waste of time and money.
Isobel
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Thanks, sorry to be so frustrating I am just trying to get my head around this. I will look at the certificates you suggest I do have a death certificvate for James that I thought was him with a son Alexander signing.
But James Brock and Ann McCartney didn't have a (recorded) son named Alexander.
I need to track down John Brock listed on the 1841 census with James & Mary's children.
Why? Isobel has already found that he married Barbara Forrest in 1845, emigrated to Canada and died in Huron Ontario.
Which of all these Brocks is your ancestor?
John Brock age 32 born Hamilton is living with James and Mary in 1851, listed as their son. I haven't actually found a marriage to Barbara Forrest but the first of their children was born about 1853 in Hamilton. They had twins in 1855 ( checking that certificate would provide date of marriage plus confirm place of birth of John).
Isobel
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Fair enough. It just seemed that it was very hard to convince the OP that Mary/Margery/Marjorie Fletcher's husband was not previously married to Ann McCartney.
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No Forfarian I appreciate your work but just need to understand it and if possible find out where John comes in.
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But James Brock and Ann McCartney didn't have a (recorded) son named Alexander.
James & Mary have a son called Alexander
1841 Lamb St, Gorbals, Hamilton -
You need to look at the original of this. Gorbals is a parish in Glasgow, and Hamilton is a parish elsewhere in Lanarkshire. They are mutually exclusive; a place in Gorbals cannot be in Hamilton, and a place in Hamilton cannot be in Gorbals.
Okay I did try to sort out the Gorbals and Hamilton.
I assume you mean I will need to purchase the original which will have more information?
'I need to track down John Brock listed on the 1841and 1851 census with James & Mary's children.'
Because he is on the 1841 and '51 census and presumably is James or Mary's child or a relative and I would like that information. I am following James and Mary's child Jane who married John Summers as Isobel says. So no I don't need any more information about James & Mary.
I see Isobel has said that John Brock age 32 born Hamilton is living with James and Mary in 1841 and 1851, although I am not sure it actually says he is their son as Isobel says, I think that might be an assumption made.
Thanks Isobel I will look into this: John Brock age 32 born Hamilton ....I haven't actually found a marriage to Barbara Forrest but the first of their children was born about 1853 in Hamilton. They had twins in 1855 ( checking that certificate would provide date of marriage plus confirm place of birth of John)
Thanks to both of you for all your help. Bronwen
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That's fine. It certainly seems that there is no surviving record of the baptism of the John Brock born in Hamilton about 1818-1819.
At least you can discount the James Brock/Ann McCartney family as irrelevant.
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The 1841 census does not show family relationships, however in 1851 John Brock age 32 born Hamilton is listed at 23 Quarry Rd Hamilton with James and Mary Brock, described as son. It would seem likely this is the same John that is listed with James and Meady in 1841 age 22. In 1861 John Brock age 42 born Hamilton is living at 37 Society Street, Barony, Glasgow with wife Barbara and several children. By 1871 the family are in Canada.
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Yes apologies Isobel I just had another look at that - attached.
So presumably the son of one of them.
Interstingly in the 1841 census there is an Elizabeth Reid living with the Brocks ( see attached).
Jane brock and John Summers had a daughter with the middle name Reid.
1867-1901 July 7th Elizabeth Reid Summers (Shaw) Glasgow St John, Lanarkshire, Scotland
and way back - although I haven't confirmed this yet there was a Reid.
BROCK JAMES WALTER BROCK/ISOBEL REID FR548 (FR548) M25/11/1766 647/30 65 Hamilton
I have indeed discunted James & Ann (sorry put the wrong name earlier).
cheers Bronwen