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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: myluck! on Friday 27 October 17 10:25 BST (UK)
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Just curious - while looking up records today I noticed that all the marriages on this page have the word Roman crossed out in the phrase Roman Catholic Church?
LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1915/09821/5566187.pdf) to 1915 page
The church at Golden Bridge was located in a convent that was also a mother and baby home but under Roman Catholic patronage.
So I looked up another marriage that I was sure was in Goldenbridge in 1923 and all the Golden Bridge marriages have Roman crossed out but the one in Chapelizod is not. LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1923/09180/5320246.pdf)
Was it that the priest didn't want to break some rule in marrying a pregnant woman? maybe?
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hi myluck!
I think I've seen this somewhere - I just assumed that the parish priest felt that only R.C.s were Catholics, so that Catholic was sufficient - somewhat political/sectarian?
I think I've also seen "chapel" crossed out and replaced by "church" (must check on that) - also sort of political/sectarian?
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I have no idea about this, but just throwing it out?
Is it possible that the church in question, and the priest, were somehow separate from the Roman Catholic Church?
I lived in Utrecht for 16 years, and used to often pass St Gertrude's Cathedral, of the Old Catholic Church. Oud-katholiek kathedral in Dutch.
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I wonder the same as eadaoin.
Perhaps the priest or the registrar thought it unnecessary.
Searching for ‘Goldenbridge’ also brings up St Michael’s, Inchicore perhaps locally it was known as that?
I wouldn’t have thought that the marriages would have taken place in the industrial school chapel but I have no idea really.
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Thank you for the replies
What I have found out for definite is
A Chapel is a small building or room used for worship in a school, prison, hospital, or large private house
A Church is a building used for public worship
A Cathedral is the designated principal church within a diocese
Goldenbridge Chapel was attached to the convent of St. Vincent's Industrial School, Inchicore
St. Michael's Church in Inchicore is a separate building acting as the Parish Church on Bulfin Road
It has been put to me that some girls who went into the convent in the early part of the 1900s because they were pregnant were actively encouraged to marry "the man" and were married in the Chapel attached to the convent where they would not necessarily have been married by a parish priest. It was cheaper for the nuns to let them out to have their child in a family scenario than to accommodate them.
I have looked at several marriages now and found that most couples had a child relatively quickly afterwards.
I also looked at other records and found that Roman is only marked out for some locations.
It's interesting!
I know the family I was looking at it was said he was on the run during the Civil War and went to marry in April 1923 when he could have been captured. Their daughter was born in June 1923. The Sisters of Mercy have no record of her ever being there! Except for the marriage in their chapel!
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I read an article where the children from the industrial school went to St Michael’s for confirmation - later than 1915 though.
1911 census shows only children - not a mother and baby home.
Here is Father O’ Ryan in 1911 and he is living on St Vincent’s Street so that fits.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000131588/
The House and Buildings form shows a church, a school and then the Presbytery house.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000131481/
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I've checked a number of my marriage certs . .
Chapel/Church
St Michael's Limerick 1871/1900/1905
Arran Quay, Dublin 1902/1904
Peter & Paul, Cork 1907
St Andrew's Westland Row Dublin, 1884/1897/1905 (1905 is the only one with Roman )
. . . in 1865/1870 St Andrew's doesn't replace Chapel by Church (??before Disestablishment??)
. . . by 1912 they've a new pro-forma book.
I've plenty of Certs from other R.C. churches in Dublin (St Nicholas etc) where they don't bother crossing out.
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Thank you Heywood & Eadaoin
I have looked at some other records myself around the country and it doesn't seem to be consistent. It is as if some priests were meticulous in correcting Chapel to Church and visa versa but the strike out of Roman seems to be more personal.
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Yes, my own church here was, I think, referred to as a Chapel but originally a long, long time ago, it was established in a room and then the church built. I also read that non-conformist (not of the established church) places of worship were also referred to as chapels, as some are now, but not sure how that would work in Ireland.
Going back to this one though, myluck, in 1901 census, the Goldenbridge Chapel is next to the Christian Brothers school but I can’t see if this was separate from the Sisters of Mercy school.
I know we have digressed but it is interesting looking at these things. :)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003702652/
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Here in Ireland, the term chapel is most commonly used to describe a Roman Catholic church. In most cases that would actually be a parish church rather than a chapel (ie a small church serving an individual family or ecclesiastical or other institution, such as a prison or hospital). So in Ireland the term chapel often does not really mean a chapel. If you asked anyone here what a chapel was though, they would mostly say RC church, before thinking of nonconformist churches, as is the case in England & Wales. (Nonconformists in Ireland tend to have meeting houses and gospel halls, rather than chapels).
As far as completing the civil register was concerned, it was up to the priest to decide what term to use to describe the building where ceremony took place. The form is pre-printed with the words “Roman Catholic “_________” of “___________” The priest is then free to enter church, cathedral or whatever he judges correct.
As far as deleting the word “Roman” on the civil marriage certificate is concerned, I have never seen that done before. That looks to me to be one individual priest's personal foible. In Ireland, the words Roman Catholic have been printed on those forms since 1864. I don’t know whether the wording was ever agreed with the church but I am not aware of any widespread objection to it in the past 150 years and suspect 99% of priests and their superiors are content with it.
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Here in Ireland, the term chapel is most commonly used to describe a Roman Catholic church.
I find this interesting as I grew up in Ireland and thought of a Chapel as somewhere private but not necessarily of a particular religion. The local big house to us in Roscommon was a Catholic family and held their baptisms and marriages in their own Chapel.
Some churches have a private chapel off the main area of the church.
The definitions I gave came from a Catholic Monsignor who feels the priest in question would have had reservations marrying a pregnant woman and therefore felt obliged to mark out the word Roman so he couldn't be accused of breaking church rules on a technicality! But we really don't know for sure. I couldn't help but ask when it popped up a few times.
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Maybe thy thought of themselves as being part of the Irish Catholic Church??
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I asked about this but it wasn't as much an issue a hundred years ago as today seemingly being Roman Catholic or an Irish Catholic.
I'll keep a lookout from now on as it is interesting.
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As far as completing the civil register was concerned, it was up to the priest to decide what term to use to describe the building where ceremony took place. The form is pre-printed with the words “Roman Catholic “_________” of “___________” The priest is then free to enter church, cathedral or whatever he judges correct.
The older books had "Roman Catholic Chapel of_______" on them.
I presume that before Disestablishment, this had to be left unchanged.
After Disestablishment ?1870ish?, they were still using the old registers - some priest let it be, others crossed out the word chapel.
Once the old registers were finished, the new Registers were printed as Elwyn Soutter describes.
Later on, from 1950s-1970s, I have several Certs (all Dublin) where the description is "Catholic _____ of" . . . . . . no mention of Roman.
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I am a little surprised at the answers to this question. The answer, of course, is that the church in question was and is simply the "Catholic Church". This was not legally accepted by the British, who insisted on using the term "Roman Catholic Church". Some priests corrected this.
Similarly, the use of "chapel" reflects the usage of the time when the United Church of England and Ireland and was the Established Church. Only churches of the established church were legally churches, all others being mere "chapels".
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Hello,
I have just reignited my mother's family history search in Ireland - A cousin in the USA asked me some questions and I came across a little bit of information that my Mother had managed to put together. Not a great deal and it is raising a lot of questions for me.
I found a copy of my Grandparent's marriage certificate, dated 1913. Married by Thomas Ryan at the Church of Golden Bridge, and yes Roman was crossed out.
I have tried googling Church of Golden Bridge, but am finding it hard to locate, does anyone have any information or photos of it for me please? I feel a little bit stuck.
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Hello,
I have just reignited my mother's family history search in Ireland - A cousin in the USA asked me some questions and I came across a little bit of information that my Mother had managed to put together. Not a great deal and it is raising a lot of questions for me.
I found a copy of my Grandparent's marriage certificate, dated 1913. Married by Thomas Ryan at the Church of Golden Bridge, and yes Roman was crossed out.
I have tried googling Church of Golden Bridge, but am finding it hard to locate, does anyone have any information or photos of it for me please? I feel a little bit stuck.
This one?
https://cashel-emly.ie/church/golden/church-of-the-blessed-sacrament/ (https://cashel-emly.ie/church/golden/church-of-the-blessed-sacrament/)
Golden was previously known as Goldenbridge.
The marriage registration should give more than just the name of the church - the name of the registration district or county should be on the page also.
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Welcome to Rootschat.
Here is the link from the first post in this thread - Golden Bridge, Dublin
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1915/09821/5566187.pdf
Father Thomas O’ Ryan is the celebrant. Does this compare with your record?
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Possibly Thomas O Ryan in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/New_Kilmainham/St__Vincent_Street/58399/
House and building return
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000131481/
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Yes. I posted that information, I think, in reply #5 - in 2017
So we are on the same track :)
Perhaps it was his own peculiarity. It would be interesting to see other marriages there by a different priest.
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Yes. I posted that information, I think, in reply #5 - in 2017
So we are on the same track :)
Perhaps it was his own peculiarity. It would be interesting to see other marriages there by a different priest.
Sorry I only read today's posts.
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It’s good to go over things. Something new might come up.
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St.Vincent's church is very near Goldenbridge cemetary, Goldenbridge House etc it must be the one.
St.Vincent's Industrial School is still known as Goldenbridge
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I wonder if the crossing out of "Roman" is in some way connected with the politics of the Home Rule crisis.
The protestant unionists opposed Home Rule ... they wanted remote government from Westminster to continue ... and their campaign slogan was "Home Rule means Rome Rule". So I wonder if this was a case of a Catholic priest wanting to emphasise that being Catholic didn't mean being disloyal ...
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Yes. I posted that information, I think, in reply #5 - in 2017
So we are on the same track :)
Perhaps it was his own peculiarity. It would be interesting to see other marriages there by a different priest.
If it is the correct church it's part of the convent which would explain why there is only a curate priest and no Parish priest listed in the house and building return. Curates usually lived with the PP.
It may also explain why Roman is crossed out, it wasn't a parish church.
That said getting married in a convent church seems odd.
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Thank you Wexflyer and Heywood for responding to my post. I attach a copy of the Wedding Certificate, I cannot make out what the registrar's District was. I see all bar my Grand Father marked their signatures with an X
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I think upon scrutinizing the registrar's district it reads New Kilmainham, so I am just in the process of trying to locate that now.
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I think upon scrutinizing the registrar's district it reads New Kilmainham, so I am just in the process of trying to locate that now.
Kilmainham is just to the west of Dublin city center, on the south side. Near Heuston station.
From 1868, New Kilmainham comprised the townlands of Kilmainham, Goldenbridge North, Inchicore North, Inchicore South, and Butchers Arms. Its total area was 580 acres (230 ha) and the population was 5,391 in 1881 and 6,519 in 1891.[6] It became an urban district under the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898.[7] In 1900, the urban district was abolished and the area was transferred from the county into the jurisdiction of the city of Dublin as the New Kilmainham ward.
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Thomas O'Ryan CC appears twice in the newspapers in 1901 and 1906 with the address Golden Bridge,
He's still crossing out Roman in 1919
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1919/09695/5516515.pdf
and it appears he becomes PP in Rollestown and is still crossing out Roman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1926/09114/5296609.pdf
but his predecessor didn't cross out Roman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1924/09164/5314472.pdf
in 1931 he's transferred as PP to St Audoen's, haven't even tried to look there but it seems the crossing out was a Thomas O'Ryan thing.
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People still don't seem to get it.
The use of "Roman Catholic" was British imposed, as they were of the view that the CofE was "Catholic", and hence was a "Catholic Church".
Internally, the Catholic Church is simply the Catholic Church, and many clergy resented the English imposition of "Roman Catholic".
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The point I was trying to make is it's the same priest each time, I'm trying to find some reference to the name of the Golden Bridge church associated with him other than simply Golden Bridge. He went on to be a PP so he may have an obituary.
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And my initial inquiry was really about the Church of Golden Bridge, which I still haven't got anywhere with.
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And my initial inquiry was really about the Church of Golden Bridge, which I still haven't got anywhere with.
Unsurprising, given the original focus of this thread, which you tied into.
If the church itself is what is of interest, then you should post a query on that specific topic, in the Dublin forum.
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People still don't seem to get it.
The use of "Roman Catholic" was British imposed, as they were of the view that the CofE was "Catholic", and hence was a "Catholic Church".
Internally, the Catholic Church is simply the Catholic Church, and many clergy resented the English imposition of "Roman Catholic".
Not entirely. Not really about the 'hated English' per se. Perhaps about any protestant religion
The Anglican church also talks of the 'catholic church' in the Nicene creed.
We say
"We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.'
Catholic has a dictionary meaning of 'all embracing'.
The idea that I have is that catholic mean all embracing and having been baptised once in any church you don't need to be rebaptised to join any other church. My grandfather who trained as a Catholic priest, then left and later married my grandmotherr was very clear on this.
His oldest two children were baptised by a travelling Anglican priest here in NZ were taken from his home when he was away, under protest by my grandmother who had just recently given birth by parishioners of the local RC church and ostensibly baptised again. He apparently was apoplectic about this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed#:~:text=The%20Nicene%20Creed%20of%20325,very%20God%20of%20very%20God.%22
I have the feeling that scholars like my grandfather (died 1940) was did not tend to go much on trying to make differences out of Catholic/Roman Catholic. I know though that some did and that is fine too.
But I know it did happen.
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I agree shanreagh.
I don’t have Wexflyer’s knowledge of Ireland but it seems that the terms were interchangeable.It is the same in UK.
Father O’ Ryan was presumably in favour of the term ‘Catholic’ but may not have been representative of the clergy.
‘Roman Catholic’ (to describe followers of the Roman Rite as opposed to other Catholic followers e.g. Eastern rite) is still used in official documents in Ireland.
However, back to the query. I think this was already mentioned earlier in the thread but in the census, Fr O’Ryan was living in Vincent Street. It does look to be the church which was part of the Industrial School,complex.
1901 Form B1
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003702653/
1911 B1
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000131481/
There is a map here which shows the Presbytery on St Vincents Street and the various buildings around, including St Vincent’s R C church attached to the convent.
http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/DublinGoldenBridgeIS/
There are several priests living in Tyrconnell Road, New Kilmainham DED, which, in form B1 is noted as ‘The Presbytery’, Inchicore Roman Catholic Church. That may be St Michael’s.
I hope this helps.
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Found his obit
He died in 1943
Ordained in 1893 he was Diocesan Examiner and later curate at St.Jame's, Dublin and Goldenbridge. He was chaplain at Kilmainham during the 1916 Rising. He was later appointed PP at Garristown and eleven years ago he was appointed to St. Audoen's.
Yet again it just says Goldenbridge, I think it has to be the church attached to the convent or the Christian Brother's school.
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Found his obit
He died in 1943
Ordained in 1893 he was Diocesan Examiner and later curate at St.Jame's, Dublin and Goldenbridge. He was chaplain at Kilmainham during the 1916 Rising. He was later appointed PP at Garristown and eleven years ago he was appointed to St. Audoen's.
Yet again it just says Goldenbridge, I think it has to be the church attached to the convent or the Christian Brother's school.
Congratulations on tracking him down..
But neither of those locations would ordinarily be used for celebrating weddings. They are private chapels, not normal public places of worship.
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People still don't seem to get it.
The use of "Roman Catholic" was British imposed, as they were of the view that the CofE was "Catholic", and hence was a "Catholic Church".
Internally, the Catholic Church is simply the Catholic Church, and many clergy resented the English imposition of "Roman Catholic".
Not entirely. Not really about the 'hated English' per se. Perhaps about any protestant religion
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You might wish to edit your post. Did your grandparents really have a same-sex marriage at such an early date? :o
I don't think it was the "hated English", so much as a Protestant church and country imposing a name on their own (Catholic) church, a name not of their choosing. [Though the two concepts admittedly overlapped].
While there were many aspects, the determinative one was probably the legal one. For many years if you left a bequest to, say, the "Catholic Church" it wasn't going to go to who you thought it was going to go. It would go to the established church instead. Likewise, British official documents, army, navy, etc. all insisted on the use of "Roman Catholic". And GRO documents too - which is how we got into this discussion.
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But neither of those locations would ordinarily be used for celebrating weddings. They are private chapels, not normal public places of worship.
We were saying that earlier, they would be very odd places to get married.
Searching the papers again, it appears Golden Bridge Church was part of St. James' Parish, which makes sense and there was a funeral in 1921 which calls it Golden Bridge Church Inchicore, perhaps we need to expand the search of the map a bit.
There is even a photo of a girl in 2004 at her recent graduation at Goldenbridge Church. I don't know how she found the place.
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There are newspaper snippets of funerals which mention Goldenbridge R C Church/chapel and a couple of marriages also. I checked the marriages and they are as we have already found.
Your mention of St James reminded me that I read that St Michael’s Inchicore was the Garrison church for Richmond Barracks and later part of St James’ parish.(I think).
Fr O’Ryan is mentioned as CC (curate) of Goldenbridge and P P (parish priest in newspaper articles).
Also the church and clergy I posted earlier in the census, Tyrconnel Road , that I thought might be St Michael’s, were O M I fathers.
Would the archives or Diocesan archives be able to help clarify?
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I meant to add that as he lived in the presbytery, perhaps Fr O’Ryan was chaplain to the convent etc and, if as you say, the chapel wasn’t used for public ceremonies, he held a parish role elsewhere.
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There is a play called History part of the Ireland Trilogy and one of the places featured in it is Goldenbridge Church which it says was one of the laundries
https://yanawritesabouttheatre.wordpress.com/tag/gemma-collins/
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From this article, https://maynoothgeography.wordpress.com/2022/03/18/sjd8-3-the-urban-palimpsest-of-new-kilmainham-1911/
“ On this basis, the nuns set up their own (primary Catholic) National Schools one for girls in 1858, and a little later one for boys. On St Vincent Street, the Christian Brothers set up a school for older boys in 1880s. By the convent, a chapel for the community is also shown, as early as the St Jude’s parish map of 1864. At the southern end of St Vincent Street was the presbytery for the priest attached to this chapel.”
There may not have been a hard and fast rule that the wider community could not use the chapel.
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The girl who had her graduation in 2004 at Goldenbridge church attended the Inchicore Institute of Further Education, which has a theatre in the former Convent and church.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-30124054.html
This is I believe The Goldenbridge Intergrated Complex
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You might wish to edit your post. Did your grandparents really have a same-sex marriage at such an early date? :o
ha ha Wexflyer. have modified it.
Thanks, yes they were modern with mixed marriages and intermarriage with Maori but perhaps not that modern.
I also understand the importance of making one's point in whatever way you could.
My mother was very fierce on the theology of only one baptism needed into, not so RC/Ang in her day but any baptism and other churches who tried to demand it.
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EMLaga,
It can/often happen on Rootschat that we digress or provide extra information. I hope we have helped in some way.
I suggested earlier that perhaps the diocesan archives might be able to help with regard to the chapel’s use or Father O’Ryan’s responsibilities.
https://dublindiocese.ie/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Family-History-1.docx
Or perhaps try contacting S Wilson here - the email is at the bottom of his page
https://www.swilson.info/index.php
Good luck with your searching :)
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It can/often happen on Rootschat that we digress or provide extra information.
As understatements go, heywood, that's right up there with Hirohito's famous radio broadcast which began "The war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage."
The range of specialist knowledge which people here possess is truly awesome ... and that they enjoy sharing it so freely and readily is one of the things which makes this such a wonderful site.
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It can/often happen on Rootschat that we digress or provide extra information.
As understatements go, heywood, that's right up there with Hirohito's famous radio broadcast which began "The war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage."
The range of specialist knowledge which people here possess is truly awesome ... and that they enjoy sharing it so freely and readily is one of the things which makes this such a wonderful site.
Well said ;D .
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I have to say, I was somewhat bothered about the analogy :-\ ;)
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From this article, https://maynoothgeography.wordpress.com/2022/03/18/sjd8-3-the-urban-palimpsest-of-new-kilmainham-1911/
“ On this basis, the nuns set up their own (primary Catholic) National Schools one for girls in 1858, and a little later one for boys. On St Vincent Street, the Christian Brothers set up a school for older boys in 1880s. By the convent, a chapel for the community is also shown, as early as the St Jude’s parish map of 1864. At the southern end of St Vincent Street was the presbytery for the priest attached to this chapel.”
There may not have been a hard and fast rule that the wider community could not use the chapel.
The beauty of the Catholic Church is that rules can always be dispensed with (but only by proper authority, of course). :)
So, a chapel for a religious order would not ordinarily be used as a parochial church, but if no parochial church was available or convenient, it could sometimes happen that such could be made available for parochial use. Quite unusual, but possible, and it did happen in some locations. It appears that Goldenbridge may be one such
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Attached is a photo of Our Lady Mercy chapel of Ease, Goldenbridge. Fr Ryan’s church.