RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: BAC3 on Sunday 29 October 17 16:16 GMT (UK)
-
Hello,
This person is sometimes referred to as Islay Campbell FLEMING, but the origin of "Islay" is obscure and only cited in the 1851 Census as far as I can see. His parents were David and Jemima FLEMING (Mother nee BELL) and he had these brothers and sisters:
William (born 1826);
John (1828);
David (1831);
Catherine (1833);
James and Thomas, (1836);
Alexander (1838);
Charles (1841): and
Jemima (1847).
The family abode seems to have been Dalrymple Place, Edinburgh, and he appears in the 1851 and 1861 Scotland Census returns but these are the last sightings.
Can anyone help with possible marriage, family and death details after 1861 please.
Thank you,
BAC3
-
What was Campbell's occ. in 1861?
Have you found the others after 1861, where were they, did any immigrate?
Have you checked whether he was an informant on either parents deaths or a witness at any siblings marriages?
Annie
-
Is your reference for 1851 'Islay' from SP or a transcription?
The reason I ask is, I can't bring up an Islay Fleming on SP for 1851?
Annie
-
Annie,
His father died in 1853, mother in 1867, sister Jemima in 1864, sister Catherine 1867, brother William 1881, brother Charles 1888, brother John 1902 and brother David 1904.....I have not been able to investigate whether or not he was attendant at their deaths.
In 1861 he was employed as a Brass Founder Caster and living with older brother Alexander and younger sister Jemima at the family home Dalrymple Place.
-
I found him on 'Fancestry' 1861 but no mention of 'Islay'?
What was his mother's maiden name?
Annie
-
Annie,
I quoted his mother's maiden name in my opening post "BELL", born Edinburgh 1803.
BAC3
-
Apologies & thanks, I forgot in between searches :-[
Some deaths prior to the quoted '1974' date have the mother's m/s so I was looking for a death without his initial incase it was transcribed wrongly?
Annie
-
There are articles about Campbell Fleming being convicted of theft in the newspaper archive . This was in 1857 - he was sent to Parkhurst and seems to have been released just before the 1861 census on licence. There are quite detailed records on FindMyPast and although it does not locate him after 1861 you may find of interest.
William
-
Not doing too good, no sign of Campbell or Alexander after 1861 :-\
Someone has Campbell as...
'Ilay Campbell Fleming1843–'
b 07 May 1843 Free Martyrs Church, Edinburgh
Annie
-
His father died in 1853,
Someone has this... :-\
David Fleming
b 05 Apr 1801 Edinburgh, Midothian
d 28 Feb 1881 Edinburgh, Midlothian
Annie
-
Hello Annie,
That dreaded "brick wall" is growing taller by the minute ::)
Certainly the father David was born in 1801 and I suppose Scotland will have a myriad "David FLEMING" names but our versions died 30/05/1853 and 08/12/1904, father and son respectively.
William (Millmoor): I knew about his criminal background, 4 years penal servitude, and his records both at Parkhurst and Millbank Prisons reinforce the family details quoted. It is trying to retrieve his life post-prison and 1861 that is proving slightly problematic. I am in contact with a descendant who has had the same experience and hence my resort to RootsChat, knowing that unfailingly an answer will be suggested.......... 8) 8)
For the moment,
BAC3
-
Now knowing his 'past', my suggestion is, he either moved south or emigrated & possibly either flipped his name i.e. Fleming Campbell or changed his name?
Annie
-
I'm curious now about the 'Ilay' as that entry I posted has an exact date?
Annie
-
1841 (Fleming)
David 40
Jamima 38
William 15
John C 12
David B 10
Cathrine C 8
James M 5
Thomas 5
Alexander 3
Charles 1
Do you know if the middle initial 'C' for John & Catherine is for Campbell or other?
Do you know what the others middle initials B & M stand for?
I'm wondering if Campbell was indeed a middle name & used when it suited to hide his real identity?
Annie
-
Annie,
This will confuse you ::)
I have just uncovered an Ancestry Public Member Tree for a David FLEMING, born 05/04/1801 died 28/02/1881, married to Jamima FLEMING..........there is a son Islay Campbell FLEMING born 1843 died 1844.
Curiouser and curiouser!!!!
BAC3
-
That's the tree I found the info. on ;)
They have nothing on Campbell apart from his birth which I'm wondering is true for Campbell being his middle name?
'Sentence: 4 years transportation.
Licence granted 28 February 1861, for early release from Parkhurst prison'
As the licence was only granted 5 wks prior to the census (7th Apr) he possibly was transported?
Annie
-
He was actually released from Parkhurst Prison on 05/03/1861 and stated that his destination was to his mother, Jemima FLEMING, 11 Dalrymple Place, Edinburgh. The Census took place on the night 7/8 April, so even allowing for travel in Victorian times he had plenty of time to reach Edinburgh!!
BAC3
-
I realise he was in Edinburgh 1861 census night but...
He was out on 'licence' i.e. if he didn't meet the requirements of that curfew he may have ended up being transported :-\
Are you able to look at his baptism record for his correct name?
'Ilay' just doesn't seem right?
Annie
-
In 1861 he was employed as a Brass Founder Caster and living with older brother Alexander and younger sister Jemima at the family home Dalrymple Place.
I wonder where the mother was in 1861?
"Islay Campbell FLEMING born 1843 died 1844".
I didn't notice that earlier when I saw the name on that tree!!!
Confusion right enough as the one we think is the same lad was still alive in 1861 ??? :-\ ::)
Annie
-
In the 1851 census entries on Freecen, Findmypast and Scotlandspeople index his name is transcribed as Hay Fleming. On Ancestry it is May Fleming. Where does the name Islay come in?
Isobel
-
I have just uncovered an Ancestry Public Member Tree for a David FLEMING, born 05/04/1801 died 28/02/1881, married to Jamima FLEMING..........there is a son Islay Campbell FLEMING born 1843 died 1844.
Don't trust it. Never trust an online tree. Track down that death for yourself. You cannot know whether the person who submitted that tree was a meticulous researcher, or someone who has been lazy and just assumed it was the same person.
-
Scotlandspeople has a baptism of Hay Campbell Fleming son of David Fleming in 1843 in Edinburgh.
Isobel
-
Good Morning Everyone,
"Islay" should read "Hay" is, I think, the consensus, especially with the baptismal evidence. Thank you.
Sadly, and most of all frustratingly, the information has not converted into tangible appearances after 1861 :'(
For the moment
BAC3
-
"Islay" should read "Hay" is, I think, the consensus, especially with the baptismal evidence. Thank you.
the information has not converted into tangible appearances after 1861 :'(
It does help when you start out with 'tangible' evidence...
From my Reply #2
"Is your reference for 1851 'Islay' from SP or a transcription?
The reason I ask is, I can't bring up an Islay Fleming on SP for 1851?"
I had no response to that question and even now there's no sign anywhere of an 'Islay' which is very different from 'Hay'!
It helps when you're searching the proper person (with an open mind) & whether or not he is to be found is yet unknown but from deaths on SP using his 'proper' names, he doesn't appear to have died in Scotland?
I asked this on Reply #13
Can you verify any of the middle initials of the children as he may have used one of those as an alias just I mentioned about having an open mind, the more info. available, the better.
Even if he wasn't transported it looks as though he left Scotland but having a criminal record it's possible he has changed his name?
Annie
-
Just highlighting the names (found so far) for the middle initials to keep them together...
1841 (Fleming)
David 40
Jamima 38
William 15
John C 12
David BELL 10
Cathrine C 8
James MURRAY 5
Thomas 5
Alexander 3
Charles 1
Annie
-
I have written to the descendant with whom I have been researching Campbell FLEMING, setting out all the biographical details gleaned to date, including trial reports and prison movements and, most important, the "Hay discovery".
What steps he will take to fossick beyond 1861 he has promised to confirm and keep me informed.
Meanwhile, thank you for all your help for which I am so grateful
BAC3
-
I wonder if this is where the name 'Islay' originated...
http://www.thegreggs.biz/gfhp/f545.htm
If you scroll to bottom of page to heading 'Family'
As well as the baptism Isobel found on SP, the 1851 census on SP also lists him as 'Hay'...
FLEMING HAY
1851
8
685/2 163/ 9 St Cuthbert's, Midlothian
Annie
-
Hello Annie,
I introduced my descendant correspondent to "The Gregg Family History Project" but, sadly, there was no response, although the information was invaluable reinforcing some of the details already uncovered.
Further research on Campbell FLEMING has now been put to one side and in fact I have marked this thread "completed".
Nevertheless, thank you for all your help, for which I am grateful.
For now,
BAC3