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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Paul Crook on Sunday 05 November 17 23:35 GMT (UK)

Title: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Paul Crook on Sunday 05 November 17 23:35 GMT (UK)
Hi. I am attaching three images to do with a friend's relative who we think died in WW2. We have been told that the uniform he is wearing in the attached photo shows him as a member of the Royal Signals Corp. However, we thought he was one of the two men who died in Italy as attached. Does anyone have anything they can add to this please. Is there anyway I can find a link between these two men and the man in the image? Any help would be gratefully received.

Thanks as always

Paul
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 06 November 17 00:43 GMT (UK)
What a handsome young man!

The collar badge looks like Royal Corps of Signals. I think the shoulder title also reads "Royal Corps of Signals,

I'm sure the experts will be along soon to help you further.
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: MaxD on Monday 06 November 17 08:37 GMT (UK)
Ruskie is too modest and has the badges correct I would say.  The shoulder titles look as if they have the TF in the middle denoting Territorial Force

In any event, unless he transferred between regiments/corps, he is neither of the other two men whose badges were markedly different.

MaxD
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Paul Crook on Monday 06 November 17 18:00 GMT (UK)
Hi. Thanks for the replies. We were wondering if either of the two men did transfer. Is it possible to tell from the service numbers when the two Murphys joined their regiments?

Pau
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 06 November 17 22:03 GMT (UK)
Hi. Thanks for the replies. We were wondering if either of the two men did transfer. Is it possible to tell from the service numbers when the two Murphys joined their regiments?

Pau

Max will be able to help with this I'm sure, but I believe service numbers can be a rough guide as to when and where enlisted. I remember seeing a list a while back which of course I can't find now ....  ::)

Your friend can apply for the lad's service records if they are interested in finding out more details, if they transferred etc etc. (£30 per record  :-\)
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Paul Crook on Tuesday 07 November 17 00:52 GMT (UK)
Thank you both for your help

Paul
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: MaxD on Tuesday 07 November 17 16:34 GMT (UK)
I think the list Ruskie remembers could have been the block allocations to regiments when the seven digit numbers were introduced in 1920.  Unfortunately, you can't use the blocks to tell when some one joined except roughly in the sense of before or after another man in the same regiment..  Example, the RWK block was 6334001 to 6390000 starting in 1920.  All one can say from that is that the RWK Murphy, with his number 6355134 is about the 21000th man since 1920 to have been allocated a RWK number (that is incredibly rough and takes no account of men who were already serving in 1920 who had their numbers changed and a number of other boring complications).  When it was depends on how many joined each year, again roughly.

Didn't want to just say no - whole forums (fora?) can be found devoted to the fruitless task of finding enlistments dates simply from numbers.

Paul - you haven't given the name of the Royal Signals man - have you checked the CWGC records?

MaxD
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Paul Crook on Tuesday 07 November 17 16:49 GMT (UK)
Hi Max. Thanks for the reply

Unfortunately we don't know who the RSC man is. We were hoping it was one of the two brothers whose names I put on my original posting. We don't hold the medals and I don't know if the original photo is about or not, so we are at a bit of a loss as to what to do next. We would like to identify all three men and put a story together re their times in the army.

All the best

Paul
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: MaxD on Wednesday 08 November 17 09:37 GMT (UK)
The only way to reconstruct the service of the two Murphys is, as Ruskie advised, to get their service records which are not on line but can be applied for, subject to the conditions, from MOD:

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

Good luck

MaxD
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Paul Crook on Wednesday 08 November 17 17:02 GMT (UK)
Thanks Max
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Drew5233 on Wednesday 08 November 17 17:54 GMT (UK)
Definitely Royal Signals - It's my old regiment. He's wearing pre war service dress so at it's latest I would say it was taken in 1940 before the British Army moved to Battle Dress.

Service Records is the only way to see if he transferred to another unit. Earlier service numbers were blocks awarded to certain units but around 1942 or 1943 it changed to a General Service Corps number issued in numerical order regardless of unit.
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Paul Crook on Wednesday 08 November 17 22:31 GMT (UK)
Thanks Drew

One of the men I men I am looking into died in May 1940 at Dunkirk. Do you happen to know if the Royal Signals were part of the BEF?

Thanks again

Paul
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Paul Crook on Wednesday 08 November 17 22:37 GMT (UK)
Sorry Drew, I'm not sure my last question was relevant. One of the men I'm looking into did die at Dunkirk but he would have already transferred to another unit by then, providing he's one and the same man of course.

Thanks again for your help

Paul
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Drew5233 on Thursday 09 November 17 17:12 GMT (UK)
Dunkirk is my speciality - What's his name? I may be able to tell you how/where he died.
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: MaxD on Thursday 09 November 17 19:04 GMT (UK)
Andy  You might like to check out the first post in the thread, I'm sure with your expertise you will be able to decide between the 1940 and the 1943 deaths

 :)

MaxD
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Paul Crook on Friday 10 November 17 01:10 GMT (UK)
Hi

Sorry for the delay in replying - just logged in for today! The chap who I assume died at Dunkirk was Thomas Henry Bradley Murphy of the 2nd Battalion Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regt) .

Thanks Andy  and Max

Regards

Paul
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: MaxD on Friday 10 November 17 09:08 GMT (UK)
Paul  I've reviewed what I posted earlier about army number block allocations and realise to my horror that I omitted the most vital fact.
A man joining the Royal Signals would be allocated a number in the R Sigs block 2303001 to 2604000.  If he then transfers to another regiment or corps he retains his original number.  As both the Murphys have numbers within their regimental blocks, RF and RWK respectively, the numbers are indicating that they hadn't served previously in the Royal Signals.
I am sorry I didn't make that clear first time round!

MaxD
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Paul Crook on Saturday 11 November 17 00:48 GMT (UK)
Thanks Max. That seems to rule out both of the Murphys as being the man in the photo. I wonder who he was then?

Thanks again

Paul
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Drew5233 on Saturday 11 November 17 18:50 GMT (UK)
Either of these two?

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?firstName=thomas&lastName=murphy%2b&war=2&servedWith=United%2bKingdom&servedIn=Army&tab=wardead&fq_cemeterymemorial=DUNKIRK+MEMORIAL
Title: Re: RSC member help needed please - Murphy?
Post by: Paul Crook on Sunday 12 November 17 23:06 GMT (UK)
Hi Drew. Possibly not. My man died on the 18th of May and I assume it was at Dunkirk. Maybe it was somewhere else in the week or so the main evacuations.

Thanks for your help and time spent looking for me

Paul