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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Limerick => Topic started by: T4Tim on Sunday 05 November 17 23:40 GMT (UK)
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Locating my grandfather in Dublin took about an hour via 1901 census and I can street view the very door, behind which, he was born.
His wife, my grandmother has been a challenge:
Helena Mary Claire Carey
Born Nov 02 1879
Born Rathkeale (Limerick)
Father James
Mother Margaret (O’Malley)
Emmigrated to Canada pre 1910
Also known as Eileen or Aileen.
The above information was obtained from her Canadian burial records.
Thanks for any help you can provide.
Tim
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Looks like she was older than she though or let on,
Dec 19 1873
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03167/2161857.pdf
Mothers maiden name is badly written and the birth date may not be correct, her baptism would help confirm both.
Sorry I misread her name, this could be a sister
Edited to add
Mary Catherine's baptism on the 21st
Right hand page
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635009#page/82/mode/1up
The register stops a 1875, parents marriage may be there if Margaret was from the same parish.
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Ellen 2 Nov 1879
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02879/2055182.pdf
Transcribed as Ileen
Ellen and Helen are interchangable
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James the father is a Grocer on both births so despite the ages this looks like the family in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Rathkeale_Urban/Main_Street/1512960/
The house and building return gives number 100 as a public house.
A combination of public house and grocery wasn't unusual or he may have changed business.
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If I have the correct family looks like
Mother Margaret wife of a Grocer died Feb 1905
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05598/4573807.pdf
Father James merchant widower died April 1905
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05590/4570985.pdf
James in Will Calendar gives two names William and Eileen
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014914/005014914_00038.pdf
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William born 1883
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02742/2008199.pdf
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Quite likely there are more children but it's late, if you think this is the correct family you could continue checking the civil and parish records
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0892
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Sinann;
Job well done.
You have done this before haven’t you?
For a bit there, I was skeptical but there were too many coincidences.
I was hung up because there was no brother shown but you cleared that up with the 1882/3 birth of William. I was under the impressi0on there was a brother who headed for Canada first and she followed. Fits now.
I had always believed the name was Eileen or Aileen but was thrown by the burial info. The paperwork you have provided sets it back on track and the handwriting could easily be misread.
Only hitch I see is no William in the 1901 census, but maybe he had already left town. The ages of the sisters and parents don’t match with the census or death records.
Small stuff really because I think you nailed it.
Thank you for your time and help.
Hopefully I can visit the shop when I am there next May.
The picture is Aileen at about 16 in Ireland.
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Your welcome, it was fun.
There is an 18 year old William Carey working as a farm servant in Limerick but I wonder if yours might be the William Carey born Limerick in Blackrock College.
Could your Schools cup playing grandfather be a school friend of William.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Blackrock/Castledawson_Avenue/1313353/
James Was worth a good bit when he died so they may have been able to afford to send him to Blackrock.
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She has a lovely kind face.
Be wary of the numbers on the census, they are census form numbers, while in citys like Dublin the house and form numbers usually match this isn't the often the case in rural towns or the countryside.
I don't think the 100 in Rathkeale is a house number, it's easier to see on the 1911 Census but your family isn't there by 1911 so I'll just show you an example from Main Street
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Here you can see the form is number 105 but the building address is just Main St.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002790323/
And number 100
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002790313/
You can compare the house and building returns for both census to see if the number match from one to the other but you will also notice there was a lot of Public Houses on that street.
1911 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Rathkeale_Urban/Main_Street__Contd__/
1901 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Rathkeale_Urban/Main_Street/
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Two things before I go anywhere else and forget:
1) The 1901 census you linked to the family on Main St shows a 19yo Mary Corbett as a Boy Maid. What is a Boy Maid?
2) And this is personal so tell me to buzz off if you wish. I've never before seen the name, if in fact it is a name, "Sinann" and I like it. So, if it is a given name, where does it come from and how is it pronounced? Of course, that's all out the window, if it is made up from the initials of each of your high school sweethearts.
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So, back on topic;
So many names dates and addresses; and yes, I realize they are all subject to human error and very small nib pens applied to skinny spaces. Still fun though.
I had all along believed the "Eileen/Aileen" as the proper Christian name. I also believed the family origins were Limerick or Cork. But with so many Careys and so few Eileens, I chased one in Dublin which bore fruit and made the reasonably assumed connection to my grandfather in Dublin.
Part two got me off the rails on the weekend when I came up with Helena Mary Claire monikers. They were assigned by a "find a grave" website volunteer who, I guess, just covered all the bases.
You brought me back to reality and now my imagination has taken another path;
Suppose grampa Richard and William were pals/teammates at Blackrock.
Billy's sister Eileen captured the old boys fancy.
After Richard's return from the Boer war, things heated up and the inheritance in 1905 was what fueled the emigration to Canada by some or all of them.
I don't know when, or even if Richard (known to us as Jack) and Eileen were married but they produced my father on the west coast of Canada in 1912.
At some future time I will look at the Canadian chapters but for now want to concentrate on the pile you have unearthed, then move on to the other half in Derbyshire where my mother was born in the Hare & Hounds Inn in Rowarth.
It would be interesting to see if William Carey shows up in Ireland after 1905.
Also, is there easy bus service from Limerick Town to Rathleake?
Tim
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Sinann pronounced Shin-on
Nothing personal, there are slightly different stories told about her but they always include two things, she tried to get knowledge held in the hazelnuts and the river Shannon is named after her.
http://www.thaliatook.com/AMGG/sinann.php
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I'm not conviced it says Boy but don't know what else it could be, maybe something to do with the shop/pub.
Servant has been crossed out.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001016017/
Hang on.... Bar Maid, what looks like the down stroke of a y is the up part of the S of servant.
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Also, is there easy bus service from Limerick Town to Rathleake?
Tim
Basic answer is yes.
I wouldn't try to go further as the bus companys keep changing the services at the moment, cut backs and changing routes also new companies are starting up.
If you do go to Limerick just go to the train/bus station they will put you right.
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She has a lovely kind face.
She does and I would liked to have known her at that time.
I only knew her until she died when I was 10.
She was a very controlling, dominant force.
Such that my father ran away from home in British Columbia at about age 12 to live with his cousins in California.
Only when she died and they cleaned out her place and comparing notes discovered each of my mother, father and her husband had been supplying her with regular rations of whiskey, unbeknownst to one another.
I like the Sinann tale and the name now is on the same pedestal of preference as Siobhan, of which I only met two, about 50 years apart.
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I'm not finding anymore after 1905.
Did you notice the way the girls names are spelt in the 1901 Census, the parents seem to have their own way of spelling the names so it's no wonder there are so many variations.
Also in the will calender William (we assume it's the son not a brother of James!) is listed as a shopkeeper, but that could of course be his father's shop.
Do you know if any of them married before emigrating?
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1.John Carey born 1864
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03579/2319325.pdf
A John Carey died 1865 age 0
2. Mary Anne 1866
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03524/2296706.pdf
A Mary Anne died 1872 age 6
Margaret iscoming up as O'Malley and Maley but everything else matches, unless there are two couples with shops in Rathkeale with the same names!
3. Bridget 1867
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_/births_1867/03460/2270499.pdf
4. Charles 1869, now father is a grocer
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1869/03367/2234615.pdf
A Charles Joseph died 1871 age 1
5. George 1871, father on this one is a Spirit Merchant
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03280/2202018.pdf
6. Mary Catherine found earlier 1873
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03167/2161857.pdf
7. Margaret Frances 1875
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1875/03096/2135476.pdf
A Margaret Frances died 1876 age 0
8. Cecilia 1876
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03039/2114294.pdf
a Cecilia Mary died 1876 age 0
9. Anna Maria 1877
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/02983/2092932.pdf
10. Ellen? 1879 already found
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02879/2055182.pdf
11. William 1882 (looking at it again think he was born 1882 not 83) already found
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02742/2008199.pdf
12. Christina Agnes 1884
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1883/02742/2008199.pdf
a Christina Agens died 1887 age 3
Now is that lot one or two famlies?
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I'm not finding anymore after 1905.
Did you notice the way the girls names are spelt in the 1901 Census, the parents seem to have their own way of spelling the names so it's no wonder there are so many variations.
Also in the will calender William (we assume it's the son not a brother of James!) is listed as a shopkeeper, but that could of course be his father's shop.
Do you know if any of them married before emigrating?
Yes, spelling variations are abundant.
Another forum member said a lot of the transcription was done by foreigners (perhaps Canadians) so another reason for errors.
Yes, I saw William listed as shopkeeper and wondered if that was as at time of death, or time of will writing.
No, about when marriages took place. That is one of the elements I would like to learn, specifically where and when Eileen and Richard met and were married.
I always believed they met here but there are two glitches in that idea;
...it would be pretty unusual for the two of them to have separately made their way to such a small remote mining community where my father was born.
...you have raised the concept of William, Eileen and Richard being tight with Richard and Eileen doing the vows there before heading to the bush in BC.
Complicating that is Canada mostly and BC in particular were wilderness and census reflected the remoteness. A lot of the settlers of the 1880s-1920s were happy to not be known.
Blackrock has not responded to my queries about Richard's time there.
And I really should start calling him Jack, as that's what he was known by.
That brings up another layer; all up and down the line they messed with given names. Both my grand father and my father had three given names yet none were use day to day. My brother was called by his middle name and I went by a name that made no sense at all.
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What was Richard/Jack's surname?
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What was Richard/Jack's surname?
Richard John Allison McGuinness was always known as "Jack." See what I mean about them screwing up the names.
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Now is that lot one or two families?
My head is swimming and I sure hope you are having fun with this. It is overwhelming but very much appreciated. We need a local with the family tree.
Another forum member sent this...
Your ancestor Eileen is mentioned as being present at death on death cert for her sister Mary,who died of TB in 1902.Both parents died in 1905
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I knew I'd seen a McGuinness but it wasn't Richard so didn't look at it
Married 1905 as John McGuinness
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1905/10184/5705527.pdf
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I knew I'd seen a McGuinness but it wasn't Richard so didn't look at it
Married 1905 as John McGuinness
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1905/10184/5705527.pdf
Well now that's interesting because if we are right on birth dates, Eileen was a year older than Richard/Jack. There was an older brother John but he would have been 37 at the time of the marriage.
Here is the McGuinness 1901 census.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Clontarf_West/Crescent_Place/1270018/
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Father's are different
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and why Rockwell College?
Thoughts
William Carey won the schools cup with Blackrock
Richard John went to Rockwell College and the story has been mixed up
Richard John's father served in the Boer war not his son
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Further to my last comment, according to the '01 census I linked, Richard's father was Patrick and was a working stiff.
The marriage paper you provided shows John's father as Robert and an Officer in the army.
So, did my pretty little Granny marry John and run off with Richard? In any case, Margaret dies Feb. James Apr. the will is dealt with in May, Eileen marries someone in October and....
I'm gonna wet myself with laughter here.
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Father's are different
Yes, we overlapped posts on that one.
and why Rockwell College?
Thoughts
William Carey won the schools cup with Blackrock
Richard John went to Rockwell College and the story has been mixed up
Richard John's father served in the Boer war not his son
Richard was definitely an Imperial Yeoman in Boer. Enlisted 1899 and out 1902.
Probably the college records of both Blackrock and Rockwell, would shed a lot of light on this.
One step forward and two back.
Near your bed time so I won't expect much more but I need to say it again. Thank you!
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The priest on the marriage, Bernard Carey, a relation, there is a priest in Blackrock Dublin 1901 born Limerick
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Blackrock/Cross_Avenue/1313370/
Limerick Obit
James Carey 6/4/1905 father of Rev. B Carey Rockwell
http://www.limerickcity.ie/Library/LocalStudies/ObituariesdeathnoticesetcfromTheLimerickChronicle/Alphabeticallistingsofobituariesdeathnoticesetc/c.pdf
Her brother, I don't have a Bernard on my list
it would explain getting married in Rockwell
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Are you sure the McGuinness' were from Dublin?
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The priest on the marriage, Bernard Carey, a relation, there is a priest in Blackrock Dublin 1901 born Limerick
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Blackrock/Cross_Avenue/1313370/
Limerick Obit
James Carey 6/4/1905 father of Rev. B Carey Rockwell
http://www.limerickcity.ie/Library/LocalStudies/ObituariesdeathnoticesetcfromTheLimerickChronicle/Alphabeticallistingsofobituariesdeathnoticesetc/c.pdf
Her brother, I don't have a Bernard on my list
it would explain getting married in Rockwell
What a conundrum.
Everything James and Margaret, mentions William and Eileen.
James will has William and Eileen, but no Bernard.
The death notices have Margaret and James as father of Bernard with no mention of the other two.
Are you sure the McGuinness' were from Dublin?
Sinann, at this point, I am sure only that I am breathing.
In the absence of any references to Richard, I was going by this, which was my first stab at any of the research.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Clontarf_West/Crescent_Place/1270018/
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OK, let's see if this scent takes us to a tasty treat.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLPF-CG3
I was right about Dublin and wrong about much of the rest, including RJAs age. Looks like he was born 1876 or 7 no '79.
Square one!
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The will wasn't a will it's an Admistration which means he didn't leave a will, Bernard may not be mentioned because he is a priest.
The obit record is only a note about it, we don't have the full obit, priest were considered VIPs so no surprise his name got into the note.
A labourer couldn't afford to send his son to Blackrock College.
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OK, let's see if this scent takes us to a tasty treat.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLPF-CG3
I was right about Dublin and wrong about much of the rest, including RJAs age. Looks like he was born 1876 or 7 no '79.
Square one!
I've looked at a lot of births for him and possible sister Kate, witness on marriage but no luck so far.
Too late now, tomorrow.
It is progress though.
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So now I have gone full circle.
I was always of the belief that Richard J A McGuinness and Eileen Carey were from Limerick and Cork. I just wasn't sure of the who-where.
Now I find this: https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/c3425d0114480?b=https%3A%2F%2Fchurchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fsearch.jsp%3Fnamefm%3DRobert%26namel%3DMcGuinness%26location%3D%26yyfrom%3D%26yyto%3D%26submit%3DSearch
I searched Robert McGuinness. Didn't find him but the baptism of RJA in Cork popped up. Twice. Once Nov 1886 and again Jan 1887.
Also looks like Robert Allison McGuinness died in Kilmallock in 1884 at age 38.
The irishgenealogy.ie also show Robert and Catherine Keenan getting married in Cork, 1875.
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Excellent, great find.
Registered late so fibbed about his date of birth.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105204.pdf
Robert is a Publican.
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What I have taken away from all this is until we see an actual written book entry, all is guess work. So many folks with the same name and variations of the names. Katherine, Kate, Catherine.
Going down the path of Dublin with Richard J A was an easy stumble because, just like his death entry over here, whom ever spoke to the officials (my father likely) would have simply said Dublin when asked where RJA was born.
I think I can now be more certain it began in Cork. The middle names is a clue to that. Robert Allison, Richard John Allison and my father Patrick John Allison. So unless I'm convinced otherwise, I'll go with 20 Georges Street Cork. But, why no Georges St on Google Maps?
I'm curious though, how Robert died at 38 in Kilmallok.
The Careys is an ongoing mystery, I guess, but the constant recurrence of James, Margaret and "shopkeeper" has to be meaningful.
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George's Street now known as Oliver Plunkett st.
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,567555,571840,11,9
but I don't think that street is in St Finbarrs parish, there is a George's Quay and the address of the informant is Cove St. which is close to Georges Quay, than again they could go to what ever church suited them.
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,567513,571579,11,9
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Ok, so it is O Plunkett, which is what Google Maps took me to.
Thanks.
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Not the only McGuinness family to use the name Allison see number 1242
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/dublin/photos/tombstones/1headstones/st-nessans09.txt
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The problem as I see it at the moment is, ideally you need to see the marriage cert and death cert for Robert Allison McGuinness and they are not online to view yet, you can wait for them to come online or order them for €4 each.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/i-want-to-get-a-copy-of-a-certificate-what-do-i-do
Before you ask I have no idea how long before the images come online, we expected and update to Irish Genealogy last Jan to release the 1916 births and it hasn't happened yet.
Wish I could find Kate Keenan McGuinness after Richard John's birth.
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Meanwhile, James Bernard Carey 1863 to James Carey and Margaret O'Malley (The priest?)
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635009#page/18/mode/1up
Right hand page
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He would have been the first born?
Why does he only appear twice in all the digging?
At birth,1863 and at a wedding 1905.
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weren't looking for him until the marriage
and don't forget this
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Blackrock/Cross_Avenue/1313370/
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The good news bad news relating to an old brain is;
Lots of stuff in there.
Not always easy to get at.
A light went on at your last mention of Bernard that sent me to the attic just beneath a hairline that vanished long ago.
BINGO!
I have a picture of Bernard in Africa or possibly Afghanistan with a letter to Eileen in Canada.
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Bernard Carey.
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I was trying to find him in 1911 and rather frustrated said to myself blast you man did you go on the missions or something ;D
That's brilliant.
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That Rathkeale parish register needs more checking, there could be more to find there.
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I'm not getting anywhere with the parish register, have to go and do some work for a while.
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Richard was definitely an Imperial Yeoman in Boer. Enlisted 1899 and out 1902.
My grandfather also served in the Boer War with the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, his service record survived, I got about 20 pages on Ancestry, I'm not sure if his records have been moved to Fold3 but if Richard's also survived it would be well worth getting his records. If they are still on Ancestry they often have free weekends. Have you any idea what regiment he was in?
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Yes, one of the good men over on the War Forum at post 6;
Regiment 61 (2nd Dublin) Company 17 Battalion Imperial Yeomanry
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=782014.0
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I saw that thread the other day but forgot to check it again.
Pity if his service record hasn't survived.
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Would his service record show more than what was shown over there by gortonboy?
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He only did 4 years so maybe not, it might have next of kin and his discharge papers if included would give an address he was going to.
It's his mother that's bugging me, I can't see any siblings for him and there is a Kate McGuinness on his marriage, a sister, his mother, a cousin.
If his service record gave her as his next of kin with maybe an address that would be handy.
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Perhaps Kate represented Richard at the wedding?
Perhaps she held the shotgun?
On the military angle, I've been puzzled that at Richards birth in 1877, his father was a Publican;
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1877/03016/2105204.pdf
And at "Johns" marriage in 2005 the father was an Army Officer;
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1905/10184/5705527.pdf
Would that make sense?
Publican to army officer?
In 2005, I'm guessing he would be 50ish but we also have that Robert Allison being killed in 1884. Something concrete needs to surface.
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I've been trying to see if Kate remarried but I'm not having any luck.
The Army Officer has been bugging me as well, it gives the impression of a career solider, granted father's occupation is often 'improved' on marriage records, it also doesn't say alive or deceased, which again is very handy but often missing.
Men usually don't marry until after the army unless they are long service and than they have to get permission so if he was in the army you would expect it would be before he married if he was later a publican.
I don't think we are going to solve the McGuinness' without their marriage cert.
You can only get so far with the free records.
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Back to the Carey's again
Griffith's Valuation I can't post a link, you have to search for it yourself here http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch
James Carey print date 1852 on the Main St of Rathkeale, gives his landlord and the valuation of the property he rented. The map doesn't quite match the record the houses aren't numbered on the map, they don't have the rights to the correct map so use one from a different period.
You need to look for Carey James, Limerick, Barony Connello Lower, Union Rathkeale
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The Army Officer has been bugging me as well, it gives the impression of a career solider...
My thoughts exactly. How could he be a Publican in 1877 and an Officer in 1905 without being long term military.
That is also why I was interested in Roberts reported death which would have made him abscent at the wedding and Kate standing in. No?
I'm still trying to understand the mechanics of the "Griffiths" suggestion.
Why can't you get access and I can?
Bottom line in all this is I really only want to visit where Richard and Eileen lived at birth and an idea of their lives. All the infant deaths in Eileens family is tragic. 5 out of 11 made it.
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I can access it, just can't post a direct link to the record in question.
I was thinking did James buy the shop at a later date, he left quite a bit when he died, something else to think about.
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I was thinking did James buy the shop at a later date, he left quite a bit when he died, something else to think about.
1000 pounds was a handsome sum for sure back then. Perhaps there was old money in the family? Sold the farm? Won the Irish? I did that in about 1962. They were illegal here and you had to know someone with family in Ireland. took a long time to get the tickets and also to collect. I think I won something like 100 pounds. Maybe less.
Anyway the money James had would have been a great "off to Canada we go" gift.
On the other hand it may not have been liquid either.
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I’m wondering if we were overthinking the John marriage because of a little chicanery.
I think;
-Bernard was a respected clergy at Rockwell
-Eileen was not a Lady.
-John not a Gentleman nor James an Officer
-Normal status would not permit them to marry at Rockwell.
So they raise the status and Bernard arranges a pro bono marriage.
Robert was deceased.
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From Find My Past free military days;
First name(s) Richard
Last name McGuinness
Birth year 1877
Birth parish Cork
Birth town Cork
Birth county Cork
Birth country IRELAND
Service number -
Regiment Imperial Yeomanry
Cross references with other;
First name(s) Richard J A
Last name McGuinness
No Robert McGuinness pre WWI.
No John of significance.
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Death of William Carey 1958, Rathkeale, single.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1958/04371/4134521.pdf
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From Find My Past free military days;
First name(s) Richard
Last name McGuinness
Birth year 1877
Birth parish Cork
Birth town Cork
Birth county Cork
Birth country IRELAND
Service number -
Regiment Imperial Yeomanry
Cross references with other;
First name(s) Richard J A
Last name McGuinness
No Robert McGuinness pre WWI.
No John of significance.
Is there images to go with that or any other family names?
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No images, just the transcription and no other names of note.
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Pity.
Tried to find James and Margaret's marriage but not having any luck.
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Perhaps something will come up in another military search on Friday
Also would be nice to hear back from Blackrock, especially now we know there was likely a family connection there or Rockwell.
Patience.
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Just a note to all here FYI
because of another topic I did a bit of searching on the McGuinness family
Catherine/Katherine McGUINNESS nee KEENAN died in 1912 at Rosetown, Co. Kildare LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1912/05375/4499374.pdf)
Her son Charles was the informant and he and her son Robert are shown on the 1911 census in Kildare LINK (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002584747/)
at house 1 in Greatconnell, part of (Rural) (Newbridge Rural, Kildare)
She is in Co. Louth in 1911 at house 31 in Military Barracks (Dundalk Urban No. 4, Louth)
LINK (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002933968/)
Rosetown is the address given on the army records of Robert & Richard McGUINNESS
I have found more information on the family which I have sent by PM to T4Tim
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Thank you again myluck.
"Rosetown is the address given on the army records of Robert & Richard McGUINNESS"
Is that from the 1911 census?
If so, Richard would have been married to Eileen Carey by then.
They were in Canada in 1912 when my father was born.
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The army records are form 1900 and the Boer War
Rosetown Cottage is shown on old Ordnance Survey maps and is near Great Connell
I am sending another email today with some more information
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The house and building return for Greatconnell gives Catherine as the Landowner, that would explain why Robert first wrote son on the return.
He was born Wales! They moved around a lot..
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They must have lived right on the border of Rosetown and Greatconnell for them to keep giving their address as Rosetown.
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Sinann, myluck...WOW!!! You two are awesome.
You both want to come to Canada and marry me, we allow that sort of thing.
;D
Honestly, I don't know how you do it.
I can't find my own feet most days.
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Things like that complicate searching! sorry for delay but email just sent
Sometimes the address seems to refer to Rosetown Cottage which is shown on OSI maps
A search in the Irish Valuations office could shed light on how they came to be there.
www.osi.ie
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Another reference to Rosetown Cottage.
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Rosetown Cottage was up for sale in 1882,1889, 1914, 1921,1924 and 1926
image is from 1914
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You can search the Kildare Observer here
http://archive.irishnewsarchive.com/Olive/APA/KCL.Edu/#panel=home
you can see Catherine was selling meadow in 1911.
Looking at how she was living is making me less convinced she was in Louth in 1911, not that I can find her anywhere else.
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Just checking the map, and Rosetown Cottage is indeed in Greatconnell townland, right on the border with Rosetown townland.
Rosetown Cottage where the red + is, pink line is the border between the two townlands.
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,682757,712999,10,7
and in this one you can see the name of the house
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,682757,712999,10,9
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Sinann
Great finds there - I cannot work out why Catherine/Katherine McGUINNESS nee KEENAN would buy a property in Kildare
Her parents married in Enniskillen, Co. Fermanagh and her mother is on UK census returns in 1881 and 1891 as born in Co. Fermanagh.
Her father was a Messman in the army or an army pensioner on records found but I haven't sourced a record to prove where he was originally from.
Her husband Robert Allison McGUINNESS was most likely the son of Richard McGUINNESS of Ballycampion, Bruff, Co. Limerick and Jane ALLISON of Cashel, Co. Tipperary. They married in 1844 in Cashel, Co. Tipperary and had at least nine children although I haven't a specific for Robert. If he was 38 when he died in 1884 he was bc 1846.
Finally my thoughts on the marriage record of Richard John McGUINNESS in 1905 is that the information was incorrectly written - that the groom was the Office in the Army and his father the gentleman - also T4Tim has mentioned that he was known as Jack hence perhaps why a reference to Richard is missing; that someone familiar with him gave the details rather than they being 100% correct - note the corrections for Eileen CAREY also LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1905/10184/5705527.pdf)
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Anne KEENAN (Catherine's mother) was also in Kildare in 1901!
She is shown with her daughter Maud (now married since 1892 to Charles Alfred DAY not listed)
at house 230 in Curragh East (Ballysax East, Kildare) LINK (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000911053/)
Charles Alfred DAY was also a Mess Caterer (1911 census) - this seems to have been a family tradition!
Kathleen Agnes Alfreda DAY was born on Oct 10 1893 at Rosetown LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02284/1857431.pdf)
Charles is in the 1st Border Regiment as a Sergeant at this time
Looking at the dates Sinann posts for the sale of Rosetown I presume that the family, if they bought the house, did so in 1889 and were there until 1914 when it next sold - the valuations office or land registry could confirm
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I had assumed Bernard knew him as Jack, but he wouldn't write Jack on an official form hence John, a mix up in the occupations is quite possible, good thinking.
Why buy land in Kildare, I guess why not, the family may have become familiar with the area through the army connections.
I didn't know any of Catherine's early history, she was proving very difficult. They moved around a lot this family between them and the Careys we have been all over the country.
I was hoping there would be a death notice in the Observer, is it know where she was buried?
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i only found the death by accident - trial and error I assumed she was the Kate McGuinness, witness, on the marriage record and used those as dates to search
Much of what I have found was also by following siblings to then work back again.
They certainly moved about but this would not have been unusual for a military family - I feel that Robert Allison McGUINNESS met Katherine KEENAN in Cork and that after his death less than ten years later she went back into the "family catering" business and travelled around again!
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Mary Louisa KEENAN b Jun 20 Camden Fort, Kinsale District is the latest birth I can find for
James KEENAN and Anne SOMERS/SUMMERS LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03291/2206127.pdf)
She was baptised in Carrigaline on Jun 20 1871
There was also a sister Rachel it seems who married in 1871 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1871/11366/8172976.pdf)
This would imply that James KEENAN died between 1871 and 1881 but I daren't hazard a guess where!!
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I am somewhat relieved to see the two of you, Sinamm and myluck, struggling with the who, when, where. You do this all the time so it is reassuring for a greenhorn like I.
I am very appreciative of you both.
Tim McGuinness (no Allison :o ;D)
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Sinann;
About Rosetown Cottage.
Is that the name of the actual, singular property they would have occupied or, a larger general area of properties?
Does having a name indicate status or did all properties carry names back then?
Being at auction in 1914 indicates a tax default, correct?
Is it likely to still be intact?
Would there be a civic address which I can pinpoint on a map and satellite view?
Great find, by the way.
The usual humble “thank you” from me.
Edit;
This?
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Rosetown+Cottage,+Rosetown,+Newbridge,+Co.+Kildare,+Ireland/@53.1595746,-6.7636889,233a,35y,39.44t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x486780672cedc64f:0xcb6f8739b5f2d9c3!8m2!3d53.1611982!4d-6.7623568?hl=en
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Sinann;
About Rosetown Cottage.
Is that the name of the actual, singular property they would have occupied or, a larger general area of properties?
Does having a name indicate status or did all properties carry names back then?
Being at auction in 1914 indicates a tax default, correct?
Is it likely to still be intact?
Would there be a civic address which I can pinpoint on a map and satellite view?
Great find, by the way.
The usual humble “thank you” from me.
Edit;
This?
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Rosetown+Cottage,+Rosetown,+Newbridge,+Co.+Kildare,+Ireland/@53.1595746,-6.7636889,233a,35y,39.44t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x486780672cedc64f:0xcb6f8739b5f2d9c3!8m2!3d53.1611982!4d-6.7623568?hl=en
That link is to the house called Rosetown Cottage, it's a single property. The house and building returns for 1911 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002584743/
tells you it was a second class house, you can have a look at what it was built of etc.
Most homes did not have an name so it did have a degree of status, lower down the scale than nearby Rosetown House and perhaps belonging to Rosetown House at some earlier time which may be how it came to have an name.
Why do you think there was a tax default?
Have a read up about the Land War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_War
After tenants got the right to own land they didn't have the money to buy land so the Land Commission was set up to lend them the money, the land could be sold but the loan still had to be paid by who ever bought the land. £708 pounds in this case, which shows it was quite a expensive property.
You'll see the same Land Commission information printed on the 1921 sale as well, didn't have time to look at the others.
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T4Tim
I have sent an email with details - Rosetown Cottage still exists and the ordnance survey ireland site www.osi.ie is a good site to look at to see the old maps and new satellite images of the property.
It is very close to the army barracks of the Curragh (about 1 mile) which is logical for the family connections to the army
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Sinann;
"Why do you think there was a tax default?"
1- It was at auction.
2- 708 pounds owed to the Irish Land Commission.
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myluck, thanks I will have a look after breakfast. ;D
And, "Tim" is ok with me.
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sinann;
Thanks for the explanation of the 708 pounds due.
We were typing at the same time.
Canada continues the British Common Law system and here, when a property is in tax arrears, it can be seized, auctioned and proceeds paid firstly to the jurisdiction (town, city etc.) where taxes are owed.
I thought perhaps that was the case there as well.
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Already gave links direct to house on OSI.
Just checking the map, and Rosetown Cottage is indeed in Greatconnell townland, right on the border with Rosetown townland.
Rosetown Cottage where the red + is, pink line is the border between the two townlands.
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,682757,712999,10,7
and in this one you can see the name of the house
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,682757,712999,10,9
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Might be possible to find who took out the loan
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=723944.msg5681383#msg5681383
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Yes and thank you again.
So much info in such a short eriod of time and a Swiss cheese brain to boot.
Pity Google didn't go down that road as satellite doesn't do much.
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Yes and thank you again.
So much info in such a short eriod of time and a Swiss cheese brain to boot.
Pity Google didn't go down that road as satellite doesn't do much.
Won't have a chance for a while, need daylight but remind me in the Spring and I'll have a look down that road, it's only a couple of miles away from me.
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Probably concentrating on this house too much, after all they only appeared to have lived there for a couple of years.
If I'm reading it correctly in 1853 Griffith's Valuation Rev. Tim Kavanagh, land lord Eyre Powell.
1882 Rev. Mr Clowry CC sold furniture and other items at the house.
1889 house and land put up for sale by Rev. Martin Nolan PP with permission of land lord Miss Powell.
1890 Michael Smyth (Postman, Old IRA, County Councilor ) born at Rosetown Cottage.
1907 June Land Commission makes advance of £703
1914 House and lands sold by C R McGuinness.
1921 House and lands up for sale no seller named. Land Commission still has an interest.
1924 Clearance of household objects etc from Rosetown Cottage, says house and land already disposed of! Seller Michael W Rowen Esq.
1926 House and lands for sale, no seller named, Land Commission still has an interest.
In 1901 Kate McGuinness is in house 16 in Great Connell but this is a 1st class house with 16 windows on the front of the house
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000911582/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kildare/Newbridge_Rural/Great_Connell/1442809/
I don't think this is Rosetown Cottage though as the class of house the number of windows and the roof are different than the house in 1911.
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Though it all began with Adam and Eve or, some would say, the Chimpanzees; I doubt Sinann or myluck can take us back that far.
Yes, an undue fixation, on my part.
I was mistaken, when I thought myluck had pointed to Rosetown Cottage as the residence or place where my great-great-grandparents, Richard McGuinness and Jane Allison were wed, in 1844, before they started mass producing little McGuinness’. In fact, it was the place where Richard and Eileen were wed, in 1905.
Sinann has, with almost certainty, located the birth homes of grandparents, Richard J. A. McGuinness and Eileen Carey in Cork and Rathkeale, respectively. Those two seem relatively intact; just regularly painted.
My goal then, would be to stand outside those two know locations and anything beyond that, would exceed my expectations.
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re: 1890 Michael Smyth (Postman, Old IRA, County Councilor ) born at Rosetown Cottage.
Mentioned above by Sinann
Michael SMITH was born March 9 1888 in Rosetown to Terence SMITH (a labourer) & Anne SMITH nee FORAN LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02517/1933212.pdf) #101
The birth record only states Rosetown
There may have been several cottages within the area of Rosetown
I have found a further child - Charles Frederick McGUINNESS
He died aged 9 months on Mar 27 1883 aged 9 months in the Curragh Camp LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1883/06365/4826472.pdf) #46
His father R.A. McGUINNESS registered the death
Although there seems to be no birth record
This has the family in Kildare for approx twenty years as there are the other baptisms McGUINNESS baptisms, the census returns and death records.
Robert Alleson McGuinness was baptised there aged 10 with an address at Rosetown & Portobello Barracks address (this barracks was in Dublin) on Jan 11 1891 - it may have been to start school or something church related and that the Cork baptism was not available.
I don't know if there is a headstone but Katherine McGUINNESS nee KEENAN was buried on Mar 9 1912 in Kilbelan (St. Conleth's) Cemetery in Newbridge, Co. Kildare
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I don't know if there is a headstone but Katherine McGUINNESS nee KEENAN was buried on Mar 9 1912 in Kilbelan (St. Conleth's) Cemetery in Newbridge, Co. Kildare
I'll have a nosey online first but if not found I've been promising myself I'd visit that Cemetery, I've passed it thousands of times but have never been inside, just the excuse I needed.
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"I'll have a nosey online"
HAH!!
I love it.
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It's a big cemetery now, but if there is a headstone it will be in the old section near the front.
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.1697256,-6.7887983,244m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,681037,714001,10,9
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Another small bit, from the Curator of Cork Public Museum, in reply to my query of 20 Georges St, Cork;
"I did some research on your enquiry and looked at the 1875/76 Guys Cork Almanac, which details the people and businesses and their addresses in the city at the time.
http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/places/streetandtradedirectories/1875-6guyscountycity/
There are also other directories available from the Cork Past and Present website so you can trace the movement of the family from the 19th to 20th century. There are also the online census records for 1901 and 1911 that can also be searched on line.
Anyway, back to the 1875/76 Directory and your Great Grandfather Robert McGuiness is listed on page 557 and his profession is given as a vintner (a maker or seller of wine) and he lived at No 23 George’s Street, not no. 20.
After the re-naming of the Georges Street to Oliver Plunkett, it is most likely that the numbering remained the same."
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As Katherine Keenan's parents were involved with army catering (her father described as a mess man and her mother as a caterer) and then Katherine herself I wonder did she meet Robert in obtaining supplies? and he catered to their alcohol need!
It is interesting that the death record of Charles Frederick McGUINNESS d. Mar 27 1883 has Robert's address as "Curragh Camp" which was the army camp rather than any other more general description - also Charles is described as "Gentleman's child" which gives some status to Robert. It makes no reference to being any army rank or officer.
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There have been just enough discrepancies, contradiction and corrections on record, I wonder if folks sometimes just gave convenient answers, when asked.
I would not have thought Ireland to be grape friendly.
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We are and were very grape friendly!!
In Victorian Ireland the upper classes mainly drank the most wine with documented invoices and descriptions available
from a 2012 article by Susan Boyle in the Journal LINK (http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/wine-ireland-susan-boyle-588140-Sep2012/)
Ireland had a sophisticated monastic education system. Monks were schooled aspects of farming and crop cultivation along side scripture and penmanship. Many of them travelled to Europe and established vineyards. Some of the most successful even ended up as wine saints! St Fiachra is the patron saint of gardeners, a skill honed in the vineyards of France. The wine growing region named after him is the most densely planted commune in the country. St Killian planted vineyards in the Main Valley in Germany where he is the patron saint of winegrowers. St Fridolin is the patron St of Alsace and established the wine industry in Switzerland.
Ancient Ireland was awash with wine: Irish people were making wine in other parts of Europe and shipping it back home. But, the golden age of Ireland and wine was yet to come!
In the 17th century a Dutch engineer drained much of the swampy land in Bordeaux, revealing some of the most perfect wine growing terroir in the world. At the same time, members of more than 200 Irish families, fleeing political turmoil in Ireland, settled in Bordeaux and transformed the wine industry. These people are known as the ‘Wine Geese’. In Bordeaux their legacy is; fourteen chateaux, ten streets, two wine communes and one public monument bearing Irish names. These Bordeaux wines have influenced wine making across the globe.
Moreover, it’s a pretty safe bet that wherever wine is being made, there’s an Irish hand in it. An Irish man wrote the first account of vines and wine making in North America. There are Irish winemakers in Australia, South Africa, and South America.
editted to add - another LINK (http://www.libraryireland.com/SocialHistoryAncientIreland/III-XVII-2.php) with some more details!!
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Sinnan and myluck!;
Time for a quick up date, so I’m not thought of as gone and ungrateful.
May, is Ireland month. I am spurred on, by all you folks have done and am very excited.
I have laid out activity for every day but, other than a fixed 6 day schedule, in the beginning, my time is very flexible. I will be day to day, mood governed and see no reason, why I won’t make it to Cork, Rathkeale and perhaps even Newbridge/Rosetown.
Thank you both for your spade work and inspiration.
:)
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Sounds good, hope it all goes well.
I haven't forgotten about looking for the grave just haven't had time yet, all the birthday celebration is over now (mother was 90) so I should have more time.
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At the risk of mother being suspicious of a strange man, in a far off land, showing an interest, a belated 90th to her. May all mothers make it that far and be in good health.
It seems an easy jaunt to "Rosetown" via commuter and a Joe Rooney cab or, a car hire out of Dublin. But, I wonder if what is there now, even remotely resembles what it might have been in 1900.
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Rosetown+Cottage,+Rosetown,+Newbridge,+Co.+Kildare,+Ireland/@53.1595746,-6.7636889,233a,35y,39.44t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x486780672cedc64f:0xcb6f8739b5f2d9c3!8m2!3d53.1611982!4d-6.7623568?hl=en
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I've never seen it so I can't say, I might get a chance and let you know.
Newbridge is very easy to get to, Rosetown is just out the road a bit you shouldn't have any trouble.
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Hi, is this forum still active, I visited Carey grave in Rathkeale yesterday I can send photos and explain my connections if so , thanks
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Welcome to Rootschat, Cookie14 :)
T4Tim (the OP) was last active here in September 2022, but hopefully if his e-mail hasn't changed he will receive a notification of your post.
If you make at least one more post, you can use the PM (Personal Message) system to contact him and exchange data and e-mail.
Hopefully he will be along soon, and will be interested to hear from you.
Good luck.
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Many thanks , I’ll try the PM option if I don’t see any responses from T4Tim
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Cookie,
PM sent.
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T4Tim,
Cookie14 needs to make at least one more post before he/she can receive your PM.
See https://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php