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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: originQuest on Friday 10 November 17 15:34 GMT (UK)
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Hi there,
I've ordered a relative's war records from the MOD - and it contains both his WW1 and WW2 services records. Amazing stuff to see.
I'm looking to confirm some details about this military career of Joseph Hardy Pennock, and I did start a thread on the WW1 page see link: However, I've posted this on the general board as these new documents pertain to both World Wars.
I'm particularly eager to clarify what happened regarding his supposed desertion in 1917 ... I'm stuggling to work that out!
Thank you!
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Hello originquest,
It is best not to duplicate posts on RootsChat, if you find that your post need moving because your research has widened we can simply move you post to a different board. The link you provided does not seem to link to any thread on RootsChat ?
Sarah
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Thank you Sarah - this isn't really a duplication, I don't feel. The Original was looking at a medal card, wheras this is looking at the specific documents from the MOD. So granted, it is convoluted but I think best to keep seperate as this new thread will look at both world wars.
Hopefully this link works and gives some clarity.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=744795.0
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That link worked :)
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Thank you - obviously been some confusion so just trying to delete the other thread! Arghhh! Haha
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Some more images of the documents ...
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Two more ...
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Another batch ...
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Some more ... sorry they have been sent into various batches and trying to upload the important WW1 stuff first.
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The sheet which has his home and overseas service on it was vital in making sense of a convoluted service and, in conjunction with what others have done with inspired and educated guesswork on the other thread, will help to put a picture together.
Just to deal with the desertion. When he went absent 28 Jan to 8 Feb 17 he was, it seems, in UK (the line seemingly through the period 23 Oct 16 to 12 Mar 17 is not a crossing out). That explains why the charge reads "when under orders for active service" ie he wasn't on active service but he had been warned he was about to go. Then the court has to be totally persuaded that he did not intend to return from his absence which would then mean a maximum sentence was likely. They obviously weren't as he got 6 months of which 14 days were remitted (knocked off - for the awaiting trial time) and a period at the end when he actually went overseas. Had he been in the field, and the court was persuaded of no intent to return, you wouldn't have got a WW2 record!
Need to take a break before fiting th record to the eralier thoughts of friends - unless they rock up first!
MaxD
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Thank you Max - I'm including this other batch of documents here, which includes (finally the overseas and home service dates). Apologies about this being a difficult request, but for clarity the help of those on this thread and on the previous medal card thread is most appreciated.
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Here is the final part - as far as I can see, and tell, this is all the first world war papers.
Thank you, and again, apologies if this has been made more complicated than it needs to be.
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I'm pleased I guessed correctly as he was in the 3rd. Batt. where he remained until 20/3/15 when he was posted to the 2nd. & shipped overseas.
He's then posted back to the UK & to the Regimental Depot prior to going back into the 3rd. (Training Reserve)
His next overseas stint was on 25/11/17 when he's posted to the 7th.
5/12/17 he's posted to the 6th.
3/9/18 he's posted to the R. Fusiliers. I believe this is still the 6th. Batt. As the 7th. was disbanded early 1918.
The 6th. later went to Russia in 1919 where he received his 3rd. wound which I mentioned in your other post.
During all of this he's had 3 cases of absence without leave one as you know resulting in 6 months detention.
Also received 3 wounds which probably prompted his return to the UK although not mentioned on his service record.
This what the LLT says about his Battalions:
2nd Battalion
August 1914 : in Guernsey. Returned to England and landed at Southampton on 28 August 1914.
28 August 1914 : came under orders of 21st Brigade, 7th Division.
6 October 1914 : landed at Zeebrugge.
20 December 1915 : transferred with the Brigade to 30th Division.
11 May 1918 : transferred to 32nd Brigade, 11th (Northern) Division, at the same time absorbing 6th Bn.
3rd (Reserve) Battalion
August 1914 : in Richmond. Remained in UK throughout the war, providing drafts for other battalions. Regimental depot remained at Richmond while battalion moved to war station at West Hartlepool, with detachments at Seaton Carew and South Gare.
6th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Richmond on 25 August 1914 as part of K1 and came under orders of 32nd Brigade, 11th (Northern) Division. Moved to Belton Park near Grantham. In April 1915 moved to Witley Camp near Godalming in Surrey. Sailed from Liverpool on 3 July 1915, going via Mudros to Suvla Bay, disembarking there on 6 August 1915.
December 1915 : evacuated from Gallipoli and moved to Egypt via Imbros.
July 1916 : moved to France.
15 May 1918 : reduced to cadre strength. Cadre was attached to 66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division for ten days (19 to 29 June).
30 June 1918 : landed at Folkestone and transferred to 75th Brigade, 25th Division. Moved on to Mytchett near Aldershot. In July 1918 moved on to Margate. Absorbed 19th Bn during August 1918.
9 September 1918 : Brigade redesignated the 236th Brigade, for service in North Russia. Sailed from Dundee 17 October 1918 and arrived at Murmansk 27 November 1918.
7th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Richmond in September 1914 as part of K2 and attached to 50th Brigade, 17th (Northern) Division. Moved to Wareham and in May 1915 went on to Romsey.
14 July 1915 : landed at Boulogne.
19 February 1918 : disbanded in France.
You can see from this that the 2nd. Batt. absorbed the 6th. Batt. in May 1918.
So less to do with being shifted around the Regiment & more to do with re-organisation.
A bit late now but you/we should be able to follow his movements using the various war diaries.
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Thank you Jim - you were correct. Please excuse me taking some time to get these records, but the present day must come first of course, and life has been busy with work etc. I'll gradually digesting this new info but obviously wanted to share after all the kind efforts shared by others.
Thank you!
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Jim - congratulations on the work you did on this on the original thread before we saw the original records - a master class, I shall not attempt to add to it.
MaxD
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Unfortunately I was wrong when I said I believed him to be a pre-war TF.
He was as you know a Special Reservist.
He signed on for 6 years 10/8/1914 so his discharge date would be 9/10/1920.
I also missed one of his transfers. 3/9/18 he was transferred to the 4/R. Fusiliers. This is where the confusion came from re his 6 digit number. The R. Fusiliers were offically TF so he would have been given a new 6 digit number on transfer.
Went onto the Z list 9/3/19 when he was posted back to his original Battalion as an SR to complete his term.
24/9/19 he was discharged as an SR as he had re-enlisted into the Yorks.
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Ah I see - so he was discharged in 1919 and then re-enlisted to complete his initial six year term?
Also, does it seem he went to Russia? The documents I posted seem to show he was in the UK in 1919 but wonder if I've missed something. It was also in 1919 that he was awared a Silver War Badge. Do the records give an indication why this was issued?
Sorry, there are other points that I'm not that clear on but will have to come back a bit later as I'm away with work, BUT regardless of that, thank you all for your help here, as ever!
My very best wishes.
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PS once I gather a potted history of this 1914-1919 term, I'll add the second batch of records for WW2.