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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: iwccc on Saturday 11 November 17 11:44 GMT (UK)
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Hello, Can anyone help please? I am trying to find information on Lord Carrington sending a Joseph Horsfall to Australia to buy wool for his woollen mill/s. I was told that a few of the ships carrying wool sunk. Joseph later went on to become Mayor of MacDonald Town, Sydney.
I need to know who was. Lord Carrington? Where can I find out about ships sinking? Does anyone know where to find a photo of him as mayor?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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I couldn't find a woolen/worsted manufacturor/mill owner named 'Lord Carrington'.
Mill owners tended to be 'self made' men and not connected to the aristocracy , although some of the more succesful ones were awarded titles later in life.
There is a worsted mill owner named Joseph Horsfall here and another possible Horsfall woolen/worsted mill owner, who was in the papers for 'concealing accidents' and overworking a 'little boy' child labourer
(Halifax/Calderdale area)
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~calderdalecompanion/h.html#h2269
But Horsfall is a common name in the West Riding, so there may be others
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Probably ancestor of current Lord Carrington, foreign minister under Margaret Thatcher. I think the title goes back to 18th Century.
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Seemingly Australia specialised in producing Merino wool, popular for high quality clothing, originally the market was in London, sold by auction 1840s, later a market was created in Australia, so Joseph would be buying shiploads and arranging shipping.
Lord carrington may have been the second viscount carrington, with large estates in Buckinghamshire
and Lincolnshire, there were other wool processing places in England than Yorkshire, especially for the high quality wools, Stroud valley in Gloucestershire is one that comes to mind.
Mike
Added, an approximate date would help
Oops I shoul have read the title
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....some more info about the Joseph Horsfall in my previous post?
Joseph Horsfall [b 1818 in Heptonstall] and Sons ltd, Clarence Mill, Halifax, Worsted Spinners,
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/1cfc4d51-f0bc-406d-9ca3-3da7eae6311c
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Hi sallyyorks, Thank you for your replies. One of the Joseph Horsfall names looks like it could be my family. Joseph was always listed as a clothier, woollen weaver, worsted weaver. I still need to clear up the Lord Carrington idea - hopefully not just an urban myth passed down through the family!?!? I appreciate your help.
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Hello Regorian, Thanks for the information. Do you know where I can find a list of the Lord Carringtons - their lineage etc.? I appreciate your help
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Hi mazi, Thanks for your help. You mention Lord Carrington having estates elsewhere & that it may have been the 2nd Lord Carrington. Can I ask where you found this information? I would need to verify this information for my research.
Would the 2nd Lord's date match up with who I am researching viz. 1840/50's. I know Joseph was sent out to buy the top quality wool from Australia. Thanks again
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I just looked up Google. Wikipedia entry was not detailed but there may be more. The current Lord Carrington is one of the last gentlemen, he was foreign minister before the Falklands crisis and considered thet he had not warned Govt. and immediately resigned. none of your 'I deny any wrong doing'. He was also a Guards officer in WWII and was in Guards Armoured Division at Arnhem September 1944.
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Hi mazi, Thanks for your help. You mention Lord Carrington having estates elsewhere & that it may have been the 2nd Lord Carrington. Can I ask where you found this information? I would need to verify this information for my research.
Would the 2nd Lord's date match up with who I am researching viz. 1840/50's. I know Joseph was sent out to buy the top quality wool from Australia. Thanks again
Google. Baron carrington 2. Wiki has that information, yes the dates are a match
Mike
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The British peerage is confusing, what with Dukes and Earls and Viscounts and lords but this is the only titled Carrington I can find at that time.
He is not particularly famous in history so the fact that his name is mentioned, to my mind makes it more likely to be correct.
He may of course have had a business interest in importing wool and immediately selling it on, not using it to supply his own spinning mill. The trade was huge and very profitable, even if your ship sunk the cargo was still insured, in fact deliberately sinking old ships with fully insured cargo was almost a profitable business.
Mike
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Hello, Can anyone help please? I am trying to find information on Lord Carrington sending a Joseph Horsfall to Australia to buy wool for his woollen mill/s. I was told that a few of the ships carrying wool sunk. Joseph later went on to become Mayor of MacDonald Town, Sydney.
I need to know who was. Lord Carrington? Where can I find out about ships sinking? Does anyone know where to find a photo of him as mayor?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Can you tell us where this info comes from please. It might make it easier to find any relevant records
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Hi iwccc
The only information I can find involving Horsfall and Carrington is Edith Horsfall of NSW who married Rupert, 4th Baron Carrington, (a son of the 2nd Lord Carrington by his second wife). Her father was John S Horsfall who died in 1916 in Victoria. He was involved in the wool business and also had sheep farms. He was originally from Yorkshire.
What information do you have about Joseph Horsfall? Who did he marry?
Venelow
Canada
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Hi sallyyorks, The information I have about Joseph Horsfall and Lord Carrington comes from oral family....pass it down history. I know this is not an accurate way to deal with family history but I want to verify or prove wrong the family 'pass it down information'.
I do have some information with records to prove it but can't find the connection with Lord Carrington and wool buying.....or for that matter the story about two ships being sunk coming round the Cape with wool on board.
Joseph married Mary Clissold and they had 10 children. Joseph was born 24th March, 1830 in Yorkshire according to the family bible. He died 3rd June, 1885 in Penrith, Australia. I have been told that he was sent to Australia in the 1850's to buy wool for Lord Carrington (who we were told owned spinning mills in Yorkshire). Joseph took his family back to England for a visit and then returned to Australia. He worked as a wool sorter, became Mayor of MacDonald Town (Sydney ) in 1880's, owned a Tannery etc.
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Thanks venelow, Yes I saw the entry about an Edith Horsfall marrying Rupert 4th Baron Carrington also. I don't recognise this name or her father John S. Horsfall who died in 1916 in Victoria. I believe there are lots of Horsfalls in Yorkshire and have also been told that one side of the river is cotton mills and the other side there are woollen mills - don't know if this is right but it is what I have been told. Maybe I will find Edith and her father John later in my search as distant relatives.
Thanks for your help.
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Hi. Mazi, Thanks for your help. Yes following peerage is confusing, especially for us in Australia who are not very familiar with how it all works. I have taken on board your suggestions and will try to follow up. Do you know his christian name? And, where would I find out more about him/his life/family etc.? Would there be anywhere listing his occupation,business interests etc.? Would it be that he was only made a Lord in his recent history or does his lineage go back further than this? Your help is much appreciated.
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This birth on Familysearch matches your family history
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l1z/.
I doubt you will find much about Lord carrington buisiness interests, they would likely be carried out by his agent.
He was the second baron, inherited the title from his father.
Mike
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This birth on Familysearch matches your family history
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l1z/.
I doubt you will find much about Lord carrington buisiness interests, they would likely be carried out by his agent.
He was the second baron, inherited the title from his father.
Mike
The Brighouse/Elland 'Independent' Chapel record suggest this Horsfall family were probably from the Halifax/Calderdale area
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Marriage
Name James Horsfall
Spouse's Name Nanny Stott
Event Date 15 Mar 1830
Event Place Elland, York, England
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AJames~%20%2Bsurname%3AHorsfall~%20%2Bbirth_place%3AYorkshire~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1780-1810~%20%2Bspouse_givenname%3Ananny~
Added
If these are the parents, and it looks like it, of the Joseph baptism at the Independent chapel in Brighouse/Elland that mazi posted, it means they were married 9 days before Joseph was born
'birth: 24 March 1830'
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1841 Census
Mill's Bridge [Milnsbridge?] Fold
Huddersfield
James Horsfall b 1802-1806
Nanny b 1807-1811
Joseph 1829
Susan 1832
Mary 1836
Emily 1838
Rushworth 1841
Nanny Horsfall
Event Type Death
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year 1846
Registration District Huddersfield
*Stott Horsfall
Event Type Birth
Registration Quarter Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration Year 1846
Registration District Huddersfield
1851 Census
Huddersfield
James Horsfall 1805 Rastrick [near Brighouse] - Clothier [<had his own business?]
Grace 1807 Longwood [second?] wife
Joseph 1830 Longwood - Wool Sorter
Susan 1832 Longwood - Birler
Mary 1835 Longwood - Birler
Rushworth 1841 Longwood
Martha 1844 Longwood
Sarah 1844 Longwood
*Stott 1847 Longwood
1861 Census
Armitage Place
Longwood
Huddersfield
James Horsfall Head 56 Brighouse, Yorkshire - Power Loom Weaver
Grace Horsfall Wife 55 Longwood, Yorkshire
Emily Horsfall Daughter 23 Milnsbridge, Yorkshire - Woolling Tester
Rushworth Horsfall Son 20 Milnsbridge, Yorkshire - Mechanic Iron Foundry
Sarah Horsfall Daughter 17 Milnsbridge, Yorkshire - Wollen Power Loom Weaver
Martha Horsfall Daughter 17 Milnsbridge, Yorkshire - Wollen Twister
Flott [Stott?] Horsfall Son 13 Milnsbridge, Yorkshire
George Horsfall Son 9 Milnsbridge, Yorkshire
Not sure if this is any help, but I found this about the 2nd Lord Carrington . He seems to have been responsible for the raising and maintenance of militias. The link mentions he was responsible for purchasing their clothing/uniforms and other equipment
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=n7o6CgAAQBAJ&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=carrington+mill+owner+huddersfield&source=bl&ots=nVhuUm6DwX&sig=j0lUvhHpdjndAY9VZKcVSQagKXI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjutdK8qL7XAhXMDsAKHe3jCFkQ6AEISDAF#v=onepage&q=carrington%20mill%20owner%20huddersfield&f=false
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I wonder if this is a mistranscription of Horsfall?
James Horsfield
Christening Date 28 Apr 1805
Christening Date (Original) 28 APR 1805
Christening Place BRIDGEND INDEPENDENT,BRIGHOUSE,YORK,ENGLAND
Birth Date 26 Mar 1805
Father's Name Abraham Horsfield
Mother's Name Mary
Is this where the christian name *'Rushworth' (b 1841 on census) came from?
Marriage
Name Abraham Horsfall
Spouse's Name Mary *Rushforth
Event Date 03 Dec 1798
Event Place Elland,York,England
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Hi
Sally found the right family.
The marriage record at St Peter's Cook's River, Nov 26 1860 for Joseph and Mary confirms that James Horsfall and Nanny Stott were the parents of Joseph. Joseph is a bachelor and a wool sorter. He states his age is 30 and he was born at Huddersfield. His father James is stated to be a weaver. Mary was 17 years old and the record notes she had consent to marry from her father Frederick who was also a wool sorter.
What are the odds that Joseph was working with Frederick Clissold?
Wool sorters were in demand in the colonies. It was a job that required an apprenticeship so Joseph would have been apprenticed in the early 1840s and by 1851 was working as a wool sorter.
This was a hard, dirty and dangerous labour as this blog shows.
http://bancroftsfromyorkshire.blogspot.ca/2013/03/la-maladie-de-bradfordthe-woolsorters.html
Venelow
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Some 'Clissolds' started manufacturing cloth at a mill in Cleckheaton in 1910. Then moved to Bradford.
http://www.clissold.co.uk/About.aspx
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...Wool sorters were in demand in the colonies. It was a job that required an apprenticeship so Joseph would have been apprenticed in the early 1840s and by 1851 was working as a wool sorter.
This was a hard, dirty and dangerous labour as this blog shows.
http://bancroftsfromyorkshire.blogspot.ca/2013/03/la-maladie-de-bradfordthe-woolsorters.html
Venelow
This old film footage of a mill in Dewsbury, shows wool sorters at a blanket mill
http://www.yorkshirefilmarchive.com/film/wormald-and-walker-blanket-mill-dewsbury
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iwccc
It seems unlikely that someone like Joseph would be sent by a mill owner to Australia to negotiate buying wool. If he was doing that he would have described his occupation on the marriage record in different terms.
A timeline shows his working activities:
1851 Census - Wool sorter
1860 Marriage - Wool sorter
1879 Mentioned in the Police Gazette as the victim of a robbery - Wool sorter
There are also mentions in trade directories of 1875 and 1876 of him being a draper. So it appears he was working in different aspects of the wool industry.
In 1882 Joseph is listed in a trade directory as a wool broker and by 1884 a wool merchant. He may have been doing this before that date but by then he was spending enough time at it for it to be considered his main occupation.
Joseph was obviously ambitious and saw his future to be in the colonies rather than be held back be lack of education and opportunity. It seems he worked hard, was interested in his local community, church and politics.
If you have not already found this - there is some information about Joseph here. This blog has transcripts from old newspapers and other historic material.
https://macdonaldtownbicycleclub.com/2015/11/30/pulpits-and-personalities-the-shifting-sands-of-time-holy-trinity-church-erskineville/
Even John Sutcliffe Horsfall who went to NSW in 1856 at the age of 19 was employed as a clerk even though his family were wool manufacturers in Bradford. He had to work his way up to become a partner. Read about him here.
http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/horsfall-john-sutcliffe-508
I don't think the 2nd Lord Carrington had any engagement in trade. His own father, upon being elevated to the peerage, was required to give up his work in the bank by no less a person than King George himself. Family money or land owning was the only acceptable source of income at that time.
The 3rd Lord Carrington did not arrive in Australia until the second half of the 1880s after his brother Charles was appointed Governor of New South Wales in 1885. Joseph Horsfall died an untimely death in 1885.
I think your family story may have got mixed up with the John Horsfall - Lord Rupert Carrington connection. It seems that John S. Horsfall was well known as a wool trader and grazier. Joseph may have had some business dealings with him.
I think it would be quite hard to find out if Joseph lost any wool on a ship as his wool would probably be only a part of the cargo and the bills of lading may not have survived. Mention of the Cape is interesting as by the mid 1870s the preferred route would be via the Suez Canal. The insurance records would probably be with Lloyds of London if they survived. You should ask about ships' records on a forum devoted to historic shipping if you can find one.
I hope you find this helpful. I have investigated many family stories, in my own family and for others, and so far have only found one that was actually true. Some have a little kernel of truth that has been mis-rembered over the years but most are due to mix ups with people of similar names or similar events, or prevarications to hide uncomfortable facts or even "jokes" by elders taken as gospel by young children.
Sincerely
Venelow
Canada
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Hi sallyyorks, Thank you for so much great information. You have gone to a lot of trouble. Much appreciated. I can't open the link about the 2nd Lord Carrington. Not sure what the problem is. It seems we have got a lot of the story worked out - just a bit confusing about the Lord Carrington side of things - maybe it is a family myth?! Thanks again
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Hi Venelow, Wow! what a great lot of information. Thank you so much. I had found the Bicycle Club blog and I am following this up with the church to see if there is any more information available. Perhaps the idea of Joseph being sent to buy wool is just a family myth. He may well have just come to Australia for a better life, more work etc.
I am not sure how John Sutcliffe Horsfall fits into the family tree.
It looks like a lot of our family oral story is part fabrication or misquotes etc. Makes it exciting when you find out some truths. I appreciate your help.
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Hi iwcc
John Sutcliffe Horsfall is probably not part of your Horsfall family unless from some generations further back in time. Horsfall is not an uncommon name in Yorkshire or Lancashire. (Over 1100 males in 1851)
John S. Horsfall is living with his grandmother Mary Sutcliffe at Bingley in 1851. She is a widow and an annuitant. Her sons aged 40 and 22 are also described as annuitants! So there is some brass in the Sutcliffe family. John is 13 and a warehouse boy. Probably set to work in various departments to gain insight into the workings of the family business. One obit states he worked in his uncle's business before coming to Australia. The visitor Sarah Bates, also an annuitant, is probably a sister in law of Mary as she was a Bates before her marriage to Joseph Sutcliffe.
John's parents were Jonas Horsfall and Martha Sutcliffe. There are trees on Ancestry that indicate Jonas arrived in Australia about 1852 which could be why John was living with his grandmother. He was a farmer. He died in Australia in 1878.
When John S. Horsfall died in 1916 he left an estate equivalent to half a million pounds in 2005 values. This would be even more than that in 2017 terms.
You would have to trace both families back to see if there is a connection. The further back you go it gets trickier to find the evidence to prove a line as records become more scarce and less informative.
Good Luck
Venelow
Canada