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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: sallyyorks on Monday 13 November 17 21:21 GMT (UK)
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MaxD
re your post about 'records being a mess'
My Great Grandad served in 3 regiments , we have loads of photos of him in uniform (the family was photo bonkers) , even a tiny photo taken of him and his platoon in France/Flanders with a message written on the back to his wife back home. In the photos he has two different cap badges. One is the West Yorks reg and another we think is Yorks and Lancs reg?. The other regiment we don't know . Relatives saw his medals and we have his WW1 brass chocolate box and a brass ciggy/matches box. We have a crumpled photo he carried with him all the time. We know he was at Ypres and at Passchendaele too.
But...there is no surviving official record of him at all. We have a photo of him with his whole company, taken at a guess about 1915? (I posted it on here some time ago) and I do wonder sometimes how many men in that same (West Yorks) company also have no surviving records.
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Let us have another look for Great Grandad - his name and other detaiis?
MaxD
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Let us have another look for Great Grandad - his name and other detaiis?
MaxD
Hope I'm not straying too much from jan21 's topic but thank you Max for offering to look
His name is
Tom Butterfield (not Thomas, he was always known as Tom)
Born 1891 Bradford (lived central Bradford)
Wife Ruthannie
West Yorkshire reg and York Lancs? and possibly another reg too.
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Was he a sergeant??
MaxD
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/bradfordww1/9340064121/in/album-72157634776696882/
Two Tom Butterfields on Bradford Roll of Honour.
Be better to start new thread though
Ady
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Thanks max and mmm45
Have started a new topic here
Topics split and merged.
Not sure if he was a sergeant but could have been
Just looking at roll of honour link now.
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...some more info
Just realised this
Tom was from Bradford but he lived for a while in Mirfield, he got a job in a mill there, then moved back to Bradford after a while.
His sons birth was registered while they were living in Mirfield
Registered - Jan 1914 - Dewsbury, Yorkshire West Riding. So maybe should be looking in the Mirfield/Dewsbury area as well?
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His marriage
Marriages December qtr 1911
Butterfield Tom Bradford 9b 340
Inglesias Ruth A Bradford 9b 340
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The Medal Roll Index has 5 entries for a Tom Butterfield but none show the regiments you mention
Royal Garrison Artillery
King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment
The Royal Welsh (Welch) Fusiliers
Army Service Corps, Labour Corps
Army Ordnance Corps
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Yes thats the marriage for them Carole.
Their son was born as above in Mirfield Jan 1914 and then a daughter born in Bradford, registered Bradford Oct 1915.
We have a photo of Tom with his son when he is about 6 months old and Tom is in a West Yorks uniform in the photo. Other photos have same cap badge, but some photos also have him in a different cap badge
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Over 60% of WW1 service records were burnt during the WW2 blitz. There is no match for him on the surviving records
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The Medal Roll Index has 5 entries for a Tom Butterfield but none show the regiments you mention
Royal Garrison Artillery
King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment
The Royal Welsh (Welch) Fusiliers
Army Service Corps, Labour Corps
Army Ordnance Corps
I know, he is hard to find
We have photos, even a photo of him with his company (West Yorks reg) and also a tiny photo taken in France/Flanders with his platoon (different cap badge) and a message to his wife written on the back. We have his WW1 brass chocolate box and brass ciggy box as well, but can't find the records.
In the other topic, Ady posted a 'Bradford Roll of Honour' with two Toms listed. Looking at the addresses I think the The Royal Welsh (Welch) Fusiliers one is the more likely but can't be sure. In 1911 he is living with his uncle, but that was before his marriage.
Added - Yes some records were destroyed in the blitz sadly.
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You said that some-one had seen his medals. Are the medals still available? If so, is there a number still on the rim?
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While the medal card seems to have gone walk about, there is a Sgt Thomas Butterfield in 1/6th West Yorks (I know he was known as Tom but...) on the medal rolls. Served from April 1915 until Jun 19. No further details and no other regiment overseas though (doesn't mean he couldn't have served in UK in another, it just won't get on the medal roll)
MaxD
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You said that some-one had seen his medals. Are the medals still available? If so, is there a number still on the rim?
Unfortunately no. The medals are lost somewhere in time.
Tom came from quite a poor working class background and did not have much schooling. He worked in the mills and was also an amateur boxer, he was also in the boys brigade as a youth.
We understand he was deeply affected by what he experienced and saw during the war and after the war he became very left wing and a staunch trade unionist. Due to his post war politics, he might have not cared for the medals much?
He was self taught and became a loom engineer/mechanic. He moved to London just before the second world war to help set up some machinery in a mill down there. He is on the 1939 census in the east end of London.
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While the medal card seems to have gone walk about, there is a Sgt Thomas Butterfield in 1/6th West Yorks (I know he was known as Tom but...) on the medal rolls. Served from April 1915 until Jun 19. No further details and no other regiment overseas though (doesn't mean he couldn't have served in UK in another, it just won't get on the medal roll)
MaxD
It is possible he became a sergeant, but I don't honestly know and do not remember it being mentioned.
This is a topic from years ago, it shows two of the photos I mentioned
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=519605.0
The first is Tom with his company (West Yorkshire Regiment) I think this is about 1915, because he looks younger
The second photo is the one we believe was taken in France/Flanders? and has a message on the back to his wife, it is a different cap badge to the other photo
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I see someone seized on the 1/6th Thomas in the old thread.
I would add only that the photograph of the men on parade looks very much as if it was taken in England rather than France/Flanders although if the writing on the back says it is France then I will stand corrected. The badge, and the man in the first file second rank looks very much like the Grenadier Guards and certainly nothing like any of the regiments mentioned so far. (A regiment served in in UK and not overseas will not show up on a medal card).
MaxD
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I see someone seized on the 1/6th Thomas in the old thread.
I would add only that the photograph of the men on parade looks very much as if it was taken in England rather than France/Flanders although if the writing on the back says it is France then I will stand corrected. The badge, and the man in the first file second rank looks very much like the Grenadier Guards and certainly nothing like any of the regiments mentioned so far. (A regiment served in in UK and not overseas will not show up on a medal card).
MaxD
I know, its a mystery.
When was the brass chocolate box given to troops?
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I see someone seized on the 1/6th Thomas in the old thread.
I would add only that the photograph of the men on parade looks very much as if it was taken in England rather than France/Flanders although if the writing on the back says it is France then I will stand corrected. The badge, and the man in the first file second rank looks very much like the Grenadier Guards and certainly nothing like any of the regiments mentioned so far. (A regiment served in in UK and not overseas will not show up on a medal card).
MaxD
...I think if he had been in the 'Grenadier Guards', it would have been mentioned.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Mary_Christmas_gift_box
MaxD
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Thanks for looking everyone
There was a newspaper report in a Shipley paper about a Tom Butterfield who had written a letter from France/Flanders saying the constant bombardment had affected his hearing. I did screen shot it ,but I can't find it at the moment
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This looks like the article:
Shipley Times and Express 11 January 1918
In an interesting letter written from France, Private Tom Butterfield says he has been buried three times by the explosion of German shells, and on the last occasion he was so badly hit as to be made deaf for three weeks.
There were several similarly short snippets, all under the heading Eccleshill.
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This looks like the article:
Shipley Times and Express 11 January 1918
In an interesting letter written from France, Private Tom Butterfield says he has been buried three times by the explosion of German shells, and on the last occasion he was so badly hit as to be made deaf for three weeks.
There were several similarly short snippets, all under the heading Eccleshill.
Yes!, that's the one Jomot, thank you. Tom did have a family connection with 'Eccleshill'. I will ask family members about this as he may have moved there from central Bradford, after his marriage in 1911
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For info, the Thomas Butterfield previously mentioned who served under 1859 & 240336 was listed as wounded on the daily casualty lists published 18 Sep 1915. Did anyone mention Tom having been wounded?
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For info, the Thomas Butterfield previously mentioned who served under 1859 & 240336 was listed as wounded on the daily casualty lists published 18 Sep 1915. Did anyone mention Tom having been wounded?
No we don't remember it being mentioned that he had been wounded. Also, he was always known as just 'Tom'.
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I know he was just 'Tom' but I doubt there is a single set of records anywhere without at least some errors on them so I don't think you can entirely discount this one just yet. The wounded report was just as T Butterfield.
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For info, the Thomas Butterfield previously mentioned who served under 1859 & 240336 was listed as wounded on the daily casualty lists published 18 Sep 1915. Did anyone mention Tom having been wounded?
Is this the one who Ady (in the older linked topic, reply #15) and Max mentioned who was in the 1/6 Batt, West Yorks regiment?
This would fit with the photo of him with his baby/toddler? son (b registered Jan 1914). In the photo Tom has a West Yorks regiment cap badge.
His brother in law, who he seems to have been close to, is in the same batch of family photos and was also in the West Yorks regiment 1/6 Batt. He was KIA at Ypres in Sept 1915
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Yes, it's the same person. His service No was 1859 when wounded.
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Yes this is the same man Sgt Thomas Butterfield of 1/6th West Yorks was number 1859, later 240336. He is the same man that I (and I think Jomot) still believe is yours.
He appears:
On the 1914/15 Star roll as T Butterfield
On the British War and Victory medal roll as Thomas Butterfield
On the casualty list as Thomas.
He is the only Butterfield with the initial T in records that can be found for the West Yorks. 1/6th went to France on 16 April 1915 which is the date on his medal roll entry so he would have been at home in 1914/early 1915.
Although the boxes were destined for Christmas 1914, they were still distributing them in 1920 he could well have got one later as he wasn't in France until 1915.
Have you thought of the possibility that "he was always known as Tom" could well mean (after 100 years) that he "as always known as Tom in the family". If he was actually baptised Thomas, the army may well have recorded him by his proper name rather than what the family called him.
MaxD
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Thanks again Jomot and Max.
I must admit I feel a bit daft now because when Ady posted the '1859' number in the other topic, I can see that at the time I thought Ady was posting a date of birth. I should have realised my mistake because it would have made that dob too old to serve.
Were the numbers given in any type of order / relation to a battalion ?
His brother in law , also in the 1/6 batt West Yorks, number was 1623.
I don't have a baptism record for Tom, or any of his siblings, I am not even sure they were baptised at all.
On the civil birth register he is 'Tom' but perhaps the recorders of the WW1 records just assumed his full name was Thomas?
Thanks everyone again because I do think what you have found may be him
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At the time that these chaps joined, numbers were simply dished out in order of them enlisting (they were still volunteers at this time) so the 1623 chap was 200 places in the queue in front of Tom/Thomas/T.
Such a pity his service record has not survived, that would have put it beyond doubt. If you felt you wanted to know more about what 1/6th did in the war, the war diary is here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354658 downloadable for £3.50
MaxD
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At the time that these chaps joined, numbers were simply dished out in order of them enlisting (they were still volunteers at this time) so the 1623 chap was 200 places in the queue in front of Tom/Thomas/T.
That's interesting. He could have enlisted around the same time his brother in laws did, especially the youngest one, who he was close to.
Such a pity his service record has not survived, that would have put it beyond doubt. If you felt you wanted to know more about what 1/6th did in the war, the war diary is here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354658 downloadable for £3.50
MaxD
Thanks for the link and I am really grateful for all the help.
I think I have all the link info about the 1/6th from the research I did on his brother in law.
I can't help feeling a bit emotional by Toms info and what might have happened here. I think it's quite possible that Tom and his young brother in law were together in some way in the trenches at Boezinge, Ypres.
Tom 'listed as wounded on the daily casualty lists published 18 Sep 1915' and then his young brother in law KIA a week later, on the 25th Sep 1915 (he was killed during 'a bombardment' while he was 'throwing bombs' (grenades?) at/into the very close proximity German trenches
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The daily casualty list does not give the date that they were wounded, just the publication date, which was usually several weeks after the event. There was a thread about this subject a few years back, only I cant find it now, but I seem to think 3-6 weeks was the norm.
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The death of the brother in law is a sad illustration of the waste of war. The grenade throwing was 1/6th's part in a "demonstration" by all the units of the 6th Corps. A demonstration is an action designed to deceive the enemy while something concrete is happening elsewhere. Success was achieved because the enemy thought a gas attack was on the way and donned their gas masks and took other precautions against a full attack which, in that sector, never came. Much damage was caused to their parapets so not a failure in military terms but three men were lost in the brigade that day.
MaxD
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Interesting info about his brother in law and what was going on. Thank you