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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: debsydebs on Tuesday 14 November 17 10:04 GMT (UK)
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I am doing a search about Gavin Black (my 3 x GG) and a sasine from 1777 and whether a Gavin Black of Rawyards depicted in a painting on curling is also the Gavin I am looking for, I would appreciate any information to help me with finding some of my family history from Scotland
kind regards,
Deb
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Hi Deb , welcome to RC :)
Scotlandspeople has a Trust Disposition and Settlement Codicil for a Gavin Black(brother of Alexander Black) of Rawyards near Airdrie , dated 4th of June 1872.
There is also a death for a Gavin Black , age 70 , 1871 New Monkland Lanark.
Could that be a son of your Gavin ?
Gavin Black baptised 25th Jan. 1801 New Monkland Lanark , parents Gavin Black and Agnes Watt.
ev
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It looks like the Gavin Black(age 50) of Rawyards is unmarried on the 1851 Census(FreeCEN).
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Previous topic -
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714488.0
ev
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Thank you for your help, from what I have found myself some of that doesn't sound like him, my Gavin Black 1782-1825 of Craignook was married to Elizabeth Anne Collins and had my 2 x GG William Black (1815-1867) who married Agnes Marshall in Scotland then came to Australia when she died
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This is part of the sasine I have found and also why I am confused about the Gavin Blacks
Sasine 12th September 1777 ..... William Black now of Craignook second lawfull son of ye deceased Gavin Black of Craignook for himself and as .... and attorney for Bethia Cullen relict of ye deceast Gavin Black of Craignook .... Bethea Black and Isobell Black his daughters .... John Black his eldest lawfull son .... Gavin Black of Rawyeards Baillie in that part.
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GAVIN Black married Bethiah CULLAN 24 April 1734, Barony, Lanark, Scotland
So looks to me that;
Bethia Cullen relict of ye deceast refers to his Wife
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F/S has these children;
JOHN 9 May 1737, Gavin Black/Bethia Cullen
GAVIN 21 March 1739, Father Gavin
WILLIAM 8 Nov 1748, Gavin Black/Bethia Killen
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No my usual area of expertise so I will butt out now and hope I have been a help and not a hindrance!
Welcome to Rootschat and I hope someone else can help you more.
Trish :)
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I am doing a search about Gavin Black (my 3 x GG) and a sasine from 1777 and whether a Gavin Black of Rawyards depicted in a painting on curling is also the Gavin I am looking for, I would appreciate any information to help me with finding some of my family history from Scotland
I don't think it can be the same person, but he is definitely related.
The date of that painting is not precisely known, but it has to be around the middle of the 19th century (1850s/1860s). The Gavin Black in the painting is almost certainly the one born in 1800 or 1802 and died in 1871.
The one to whom the 1777 sasine relates is almost certainly the grandfather of the one in the painting. He was born in 1732 at Rawyards and (according to the sasines) died between 1803 and 1806.
What I don't know is how, or even whether, Gavin Black of Craignook relates to the four Gavin Blacks of Rawyards who succeeded one another, father to son, in Rawyards from about the 1740s until 1871. The first Gavin Black of Rawyards was born in 1704 and married Mary Wotherspoon in 1727 and they had nine children between then and 1749. The first Gavin Black of Craigneuk married Bethia Cullen in 1734. The Registers of Sasines mention four children of Gavin Black of Craigneuk: John, William, Bethia and Isobel, but I do not have reliable dates of birth for these children. However the Craigneuk family must have been roughly contemporary with the Rawyards family, so Gavin B of Craigneuk can't be the same person as Gavin B of Rawyards.
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Gavin Black of Rawyards is my Ancestor. I believe his parents were John Black and Janet Black, for whom banns were called in New Monkland and Torphichen in 1702. Based on the naming pattern for their chidren the father of John may have been called Gavin. Of Craigneuk????
I have this from the Scottish Mining website
1684
NEW MONKLAND.
John Thomson, Feuer in Gartqueen.
John Russell, Portioner of Eastfield.
William Craig, in Airdrie Miln.
John Thomson, son to James Thomson, in Airdrie Muir.
John Keddar, in Airdrie town, now Cottar in Rashbush.
Gavin Black, in Craigneuk, in Monklands Land.
John Thomson, in Shiels of Auchingray.
John Gardner, in Gartly, son to John Gardner there.
Samuel Yuil, in Laend.
John Martin, in Drumbowie.
John Martin, his son.
Patrick Yuil, in Braikenhirst, son to Alexander Yuil there.
Thomas Gentles, in Habbisdub.
William Ker, in Rochsoles, now Weaver in Airdrie.
William Waddell, in Riding.
Alexander Martin, in Overshank.
----- Russell, younger, in Meadowhead.
William Dobbie, Webster in Blackbog.
http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/420.html
John Black (of Rawyards) may be a younger son of Gavin Black of Craigneuk. I think I have a sasine somewhere to do with his purchase of Rawyards, whereas I think the Black family already owned land at Craigneuk.
The Gavin Black in the painting (1802-1871) is the great-grandson of Gavin Black (of Rawyards) and Mary Wotherspoon.
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There is a sasine naming John Black, son of John Black in Rawyeards, in Volume XI. page 342. This volume covers 2 June 1699 to 5 July 1709. So (a) the Blacks were in, but perhaps not yet of, Rawyards by 1709 and (b) the father of the John Black in Rawyards when Gavin Black was born in 1704 was almost certainly the son of a John, not a Gavin, Black.
There is a sasine referring to Gavin Black in Craignook, Volume XX, page 438. I have jotted down some details from it, as follows: Sasine [NAS 42/20/439] 12th September 1777 ..... William Black now of Craignook second lawfull son of ye deceased Gavin Black of Craignook for himself and as .... and attorney for Bethia Cullen relict of ye deceast Gavin Black of Craignook .... Gavin B and Bethia Cullen were married in 1734. The only baptism of a child of theirs was John, baptised 8 May 1737. Therefore William was probably born after 1737. This is the sasine that also mentions Gavin Black of Craigneuk's son John and daughters Bethia and Isobel.
There is alo a sasine dated 1724 referring to Gavin Black of Craigneuk, and I have a note that it was 'almost illegible'.
If, as seems to be the case Gavin Black of Craigneuk named his eldest son John, perhaps John Black in Rawyards and Gavin Black of Craigneuk were brothers, sons of John Black? But in that case, how does the Gavin Black of Craigneuk in 1684 fit in? father of John and grandfather of John and Gavin, perhaps?
What is the date of the sasine you have with the acquisition of Rawyards by the Black family, Alys?
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Thank you so much everyone for your help, I will have to print all of this out and try and work out where everything fits on my family tree
regards,
Deb
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Thank you so much, have you seen this link about the painting?
http://curlinghistory.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/the-curlers-at-rawyards.html
Very interesting- the other thing that makes me think there is a connection ( but I could be wrong of course) is the connection of the Rankins - my great grandfather in Australia was first married to a Julia Christina Rankin and I thought she may be a descendant
Deb
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Who was it who married Julia Christina Rankin? When and where?
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I have this from the Scottish Mining website
1684
NEW MONKLAND.
John Thomson, Feuer in Gartqueen.
John Russell, Portioner of Eastfield.
William Craig, in Airdrie Miln.
John Thomson, son to James Thomson, in Airdrie Muir.
John Keddar, in Airdrie town, now Cottar in Rashbush.
Gavin Black, in Craigneuk, in Monklands Land.
John Thomson, in Shiels of Auchingray.
John Gardner, in Gartly, son to John Gardner there.
Samuel Yuil, in Laend.
John Martin, in Drumbowie.
John Martin, his son.
Patrick Yuil, in Braikenhirst, son to Alexander Yuil there.
Thomas Gentles, in Habbisdub.
William Ker, in Rochsoles, now Weaver in Airdrie.
William Waddell, in Riding.
Alexander Martin, in Overshank.
----- Russell, younger, in Meadowhead.
William Dobbie, Webster in Blackbog.
I was struck by the fact that all the persons listed are described as 'in xxx' rather than 'of xxx' so I looked again at this, and also at the Scottish Mining web site. The context is interesting. It's part of a long historical article, with content that sometimes seems not to have a lot of relevance to mining.
The preamble to this list says, "While searching for old books to glean from in recording past events in the history of the parish, a gentleman kindly placed one at our disposal, bearing date 1684. It refers to all the parishes in Scotland, and is entitled "A Proclamation anent Fugitives and Rebels," and contains the lists in each parish of the said fugitives." and it goes on to quote the relevant Act of Parliament which was for the persecution of Covenanters.
So this is a list of the Covenanters who were wanted by the authorities to answer charges of rebellion. This is 1684, some years after, for example, John Waddell of Ryden was martyred and his relative William Waddell transported to the colonies in 1680 for being Covenanters. So these are presumably the last few who were in hiding and had yet to be apprehended and tried.
I note that it includes William Waddell in Riding. As John Waddell of Ryden and his relative William Waddell had already been dealt with, this must be another of the family, possibly a son of John.
It also lists Gavin Black in Craigneuk. From this I deduce that this Gavin Black was not the proprietor of Craigneuk, but perhaps a son or brother of (John?) Black of Craigneuk. If he was an active Covenanter, he was probably born in the 1650s or earlier.
What do people think?
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I hope this makes sense :)
my GGF
Thomas Collins Black 1866–1944
Birth 4 JULY 1866 • 'Ayrdale', Wolumla, NSW. Australia
married
Julia Christina Rankin 1870–1903
Birth 25 JUN 1870 • Nimmitabel, NSW
then married my GGM
Ann Jane Wilson 1886–1949
Birth 1886 • Bemboka, New South Wales, Australia
he was the son of my GGGF William Black 1815–1867
Birth 24 SEP 1815 • New Monkland, Lanarkshire, Scotland
and my my GGGM (second wife)Mary Ann Jeavons 1840–1915
Birth 16 MAR 1840 • Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
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thank you Forfarian, I had found a book on google books written about the martyrs and it mentioned Gavin Black of Craigneuk
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The History of the Sufferings of the Church of Scotland,: From the Restauration to the Revolution:
Front Cover
Robert Wodrow
James Watson, 1722 - Scotland
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thank you Forfarian, I had found a book on google books written about the martyrs and it mentioned Gavin Black of Craigneuk
Yes. It actually says Gavin Black in Craigneuk not Gavin Black of Craigneuk.
I know it is a tiny difference but it is probably significant because 'of' usually implies that the person actually owned the land.
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Julia Christina Rankin 1870–1903
Birth 25 JUN 1870 • Nimmitabel, NSW
I see that her birth was registered in Cooma. Her father's name in the NSW birth record is indexed as August, but an Angus Rankin married Mary MacDonald in Cooma in 1865.
Angus isn't a name that occurs among the Rankins in New Monkland, and there are no records of baptisms of Angus Rankins in Lanarkshire who could possibly be the one who married Mary MacDonald and was (presumably) the father of Julia Christina Rankin.
There are too many deaths of Angus Rankins in the NSW index to be sure who might be Julia's father, though there is one in 1918 in Cooma who looks possible.
Sure enough, the Bombala Times of 5 November 1918 has a brief obituary: Mr Angus Rankin, formerly an old and respected resident of Nimmitabel, passed away at Moonbah recently, aged 73. He leaves a widow (formerly Miss McDonald) and eight daughters and three sons.
So if his age is accurate, he was born in 1844/1845, and from his death certificate his parents were Angus and Janet. There's no matching person in the Scottish baptisms or in the 1851 census. The closest is a one-year-old in 1851 who doesn't seem to be there in 1861, but his parents are not Angus and Janet.
So I don't think Julia is likely to be a descendant of the Rankins who lived in New Monkland.
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Thank you again for all of your help Forfarian :)
I can at least fill in some gaps on my tree on Ancestry - I started it along with doing my husbands side as well about 7 years ago and made lots of mistakes because I had no clue what I was doing then had a break for about a year or so and have started up again but with more caution this time and joining some facebook groups about DNA (my husband and I had ours done) and genealogy and getting information on how to search for things not just taking other peoples trees as correct, it's a time consuming but enjoyable hobby for me and even though I have a few books that various sides have done I want to add some of my own findings - my bucket list trip is to travel to Scotland/Ireland/England and feel the connection of my ancestors-I'm sure you get what I mean :)
kind regards,
Deb
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Hello Deb
I am researching a relative, Francis Bernard ("Frank") Farrell, born 22 Sep 1927 who married a Millicent Muriel ("Millie") Wallace (nee Black) who may be in your Black family. Millie (1914-1996) was born and buried in Kyogle, NSW and I think she was a daughter of Thomas Collins Black (1866-1944) and Ann J. Wilson (1886-). The index of the NSW BDM has
birth - BLACK MILLICENT M 21462/1914 THOMAS C ANN J KYOGLE; and
marriage - 28866/1965 FARRELL FRANCIS BERNARD WALLACE MILLICENT MURIEL
KYOGLE (Millie had a previous marriage in Kyogle to Essington Wallace in 1933).
Are you able to confirm the connection to your family.
Kind regards, Kevin
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Hi Kevin,
I've only just seen your message on here, I'm sorry for such a delay.
Yes Thomas Collins Black and Ann Wilson were my great grandparents,
My email is debasselman16@gmail.com if I can help, if you are on ancestry.com.au I have a tree (work in progress) Hanlen/Black/Asselman
Regards, Deb