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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: FindinFamily on Tuesday 14 November 17 20:41 GMT (UK)
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I have a death certificate for Helen Davie Edmond from 1886 which states that she was 60 when she died. I believe the names listed for her parents may be incorrect as the family strictly followed Scottish naming procedure. If she was 60 when she died, she would have been born in 1826, however I have a marriage certificate from 1841 showing that she married Peter Edmond. If she was born in 1826, she would have only been 15. Not sure where to go with this. I would like to find out exactly when she was born, and who her parents were. Census records all show that she was born in St. Ninians
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Her maiden name was Davie for searching purposes
Census records all show that she was born in St. Ninians
The 1851 shows her b 1818 St Ninians but living in Balfron. 1861 shows 1820 and b Balfron
1871 - 1826 b Balfron indexed as Ellen 1881 - 1819 b Balfron
I believe the names listed for her parents may be incorrect
What were the names?
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Names of parents are listed as Mary Wright and James Davie
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Can you confirm that her birthplace is not St Ninians on all census records to ensure I have the right person?
Only the 1851 gives that as her birthplace
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1851 and 1861 show St Ninians, 1861 shows Balfron and 1881 shows Fintry
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*1871 shows Balfron
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Names of parents are listed as Mary Wright and James Davie
I take it that these are the parents listed on her death certificate. Who registered the death?
The 1851 lists her children as Thomas, James, Agnes, Elizabeth and Helen. I note that it also gives her age as 33, which if accurate means she was born in 1817/1818, not in 1826. The IGI also lists a son William.
Despite Carol's pointers above, I have failed to find her in the SP index to the 1861, 1871 or 1881 census. There is a 62-year-old Hellan Edmonds, born Balfron, in 1881 in Bonhill, but she is Helen McFarlane, widow of a different Peter Edmonds.
Is Peter the one who died in 1859? Does his death certificate give his parents as Thomas Edmond and Elizabeth Ewing? Who registered the death?
I assume you are expecting her parents to be James Davie and Agnes?
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Just checked the death certificates of Helen and Peter again. Helen's showed she died on Nov 16, 1886 at 60 years of age. Parents are listed as John Davie and Mary Wright. DC is signed by her son Thomas. Peter's death certificate shows he died on April 16, 1859. Parents are listed as James Edmond and Elizabeth Ewing. (I show Elizabeth Ewing married to Thomas Edmond, and since Peter and Helen's first child was named Thomas, I assumed this was correct, however their second child was named James, so now I am very confused. Either way, none of their children are named John or Mary, so I still believe the info for Helen may be incorrect. I also show that when Peter and Helen were married in 1841, she was of the parish or Kirkintilloch, not sure if that helps in any way.
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Hmmmm. You do seem to have quite a conundrum.
You have Helen Davie, born in Stirlingshire around 1817/1820, living in Kirkintilloch in 1841 when she got married, saying in 1851 that she was born in St Ninians but afterwards that she was born in Balfron or Fintry, dying in 1886, death registered by her son who almost certainly got her age wrong and who may have got her parents wrong as well.
Comparing the 1841 and 1851 censuses, it looks as if Helen Davie is the otherwise unnamed Mrs Edmond at Lernock House in Balfron with Peter E, also 25, and Thomas E, 20, who is probably her brother-in-law. However this gives her age as 25 (which, because adults' ages in 1841 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5 years, means anything from 25 to 29, and if accurate implies a birth date between 8 June 1811 and 7 June 1816) and her birthplace as outside Stirlingshire. This is inconsistent with the information she gave in later years.
I can't honestly think of any easy way to progress this. If one had unlimited time and funds, one might look at all available death certificates of people surnamed Davie, in the hope of finding possible siblings (either people with parents James Davie and Agnes/Ann/Nancy or people with parents John D and Mary Wright) but even that won't work if Helen was born illegitimate or had no siblings.
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and 1881 shows Fintry
No it doesn't - it shows Balfron - she is indexed as Hellan Edmonds and has 3 of her children living with her who show on earlier censuses
However - there is another 1881 entry matching Fintry shown as Mrs Peter Edmond b 1817 who is living with son Thomas b 1844 Balfron
The 1851 for Helen & Peter does not include a son Thomas b 1844.
Peter's death certificate shows he died on April 16, 1859
You say husband Peter died 1859 but Helen & Peter appear on the 1861 - Peter is aged 60
Do we have 2 different families here?
Which of the Edmond children are you researching?
It may be best if you included full 1851/61/71/81 details
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and 1881 shows Fintry
No it doesn't - it shows Balfron - she is indexed as Hellan Edmonds and has 3 of her children living with her who show on earlier censuses
This is not the same Helen Edmond. See my earlier post above. This is Helen MacFarlane, widow of another of the numerous Peter Edmonds. The 1851 Census lists in Dunmore Street, Balfron Peter Edmond, 53, joiner; wife Helen, 32; daughter Helen, 4; son Peter, 2; son Daniel, 3 months. There is a baptism of their son Daniel MacFarlane Edmond in Balfron on 14 December 1851, which seems to be a year out as there is also a baptism of Daniel McFarland Edmond in the Associate Congregation on 5 January 1851. Helen McFarlane or Edmond died in Bonhill in 1898, aged 80. Peter Edmond, 85, died in Balfron in 1878. It would not surprise me if this Peter Edmond turned out to be a brother of Thomas Edmond, husband of Elizabeth Ewing, but in relation to Helen Davie, this family is a red herring.
However - there is another 1881 entry matching Fintry shown as Mrs Peter Edmond b 1817 who is living with son Thomas b 1844 Balfron.
The 1851 for Helen & Peter does not include a son Thomas b 1844.
No. It wouldn't. The census never gives a date of birth. The 1851 census lists Thomas, aged 9 (if accurate, DoB 1841/1842), with Peter and Helen in Hillhead, Balfron. The 1881 lists Thomas, aged 37 (if accurate, DoB 1843/1844). A two-year discrepancy in an age in the census isn't unheard of.
It also lists Ellen D McLeod, 14, born Fintry. Helen Davie McLeod Edmond, illegitimate daughter of Agnes Edmond, was born on 6 January 1868 in Fintry. So her age in the 1881 census is a year out, but with given names Helen Davie, there can hardly be any doubt that she is Helen Davie's granddaughter and therefore that 'Mrs Peter Edmond' is Helen Davie.
Peter, son of Thomas Edmond and Janet Moir, was born in Bonhill on 21 October 1871. Thomas Edmond and Janet Moir were married in Bonhill on 30 December 1870. Janet Moir or Edmond died in Bonhill in 1879, aged 29. If futher proof is needed, the marriage certificate of Thomas Edmond will name his parents as Peter Edmond (deceased) and Helen Edmond, maiden surname Davie.
You say husband Peter died 1859 but Helen & Peter appear on the 1861 - Peter is aged 60
Do we have 2 different families here?
Yes!! :)
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I think it’s best if you give us details as requested in my reply above to ensure we are looking at the right family
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I think it’s best if you give us details as requested in my reply above to ensure we are looking at the right family
I will echo that. You evidently still have information you haven't told us.
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Here is all the info I have regarding this family which I am fairly certain is true:
Helen Davie married Peter Edmond on May 18, 1841 in Fintry. They had 8 children:
Thomas - 1845
James - 1846
Agnes - 1847
Ellen - 1849
Elizabeth - 1851
Jane - 1855
William - 1856
Peter - 1858
There son Peter is my great great grandfather.
Info for Helen Davie:
The 1851 census states Born St. Ninians abt 1818. Address - Hillhead - Balfron
Peter 35
Helen 33
Thomas 9
James 7
Agnes 5
Elizabeth 4
Helen 2
The 1861 Census states Born St. Ninian abt 1820. Address 19 Buchanan St. Balfron
Helen 41
Peter 7
William 5
The 1871 census states Born abt 1826 Balfron. Address Coopers Lean Campbell Land - Bonhill
Ellen 45
James 26
Agnes 24
Jane 18
Peter 16
William 14
Ellen McLeod 3 (This is the illegitimate daughter of Agnes)
The 1881 census states: Born abt 1817 Fintry. Address 25 Church St. Bonhill. (This is home of son Thomas)
Thomas 37
Mrs. Peter Edmond 64
Peter 9 (son of Thomas)
Ellen McLeod 14 (grand daughter of Helen)
Helen died November of 1886. Death certificate was signed by her son Thomas, and states her parents are John Davie and Mary Wright. I can find no record of a marriage between John Davie and Mary Wright, and can find no record of birth for Helen. Due to Scottish naming convention, and the fact that this family followed this naming convention I believe that there may be an error on her death certificate and these are not her parents. It also states that she was 60 when she died which would make her birthdate around 1826. This would mean she was only 15 when she married which is unlikely. So I am trying to find out when Helen was actually born, and who her parents were. Thanks for all the help.
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I think you should work on her birthyears from census entries rather than her death cert and rule out 1826 as being unrealistic
SP only shows one Helen Davie birth in the timescale and that was 1820 but in Larbert
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Here is all the info I have regarding this family which I am fairly certain is true:
Helen Davie married Peter Edmond on May 18, 1841 in Fintry. They had 8 children:
Thomas - 1845
James - 1846
Agnes - 1847
Ellen - 1849
Elizabeth - 1851
Jane - 1855
William - 1856
Peter - 1858
There son Peter is my great great grandfather.
I hate to rain on the party, but are you 100% sure that your great-grandfather Peter was the son of Peter Edmond and Helen Davie, rather than the son of Peter Edmond and Helen MacFarlane? Does your ggf's marriage or death certificate state his mother's maiden name? how old was he when he married, and how old was he when he died?
I ask because there is no index listing in the IGI of a son Peter to Peter Edmond and Helen Davie, but there is a son Peter to Peter Edmond and Helen MacFarlane, born in Balfron on 11 May 1857. Also, apart from this listing in Balfron in 1857, the SP births index lists no other Peter (or Patrick) Edmonds from 1855 until 1869.
In Scotland, the names Peter and Patrick are used interchangeable, as are the names Janet and Jessie.
Peter Edmond and Helen Macfarlane were married in Balfron in 1845 and had
Helen Finlayson, 1846
Patrick, 1849
Daniel, 1851
Isabella, 1853
James Taylor, 1855
Peter, 1857
Janet, 1858
In 1851 they were in Dunmore Street, Balfron
Peter, 53, joiner
Helen, 32
Helen, 4
Peter, 2
Daniel, 3 months
In 1861 they were in Bonhill
Peter, 60
Helen, 41
Helen, 14
Patrick, 12
Daniel, 10
Isabella, 8
James t, 6
Janet, 3
In 1871, still in Bonhill
Peter, 70
Helen, 57
Helen F, 23
Patrick, 21
Daniel, 19
Isabella H, 18
James F, 15
Jessie, 12
In 1881, still in Bonhill
Hellan Edmonds, 62
Patrick Edmonds, 32
Daniel Edmonds, 30
Jessie Edmonds, 22
1891, in Bonhill
Helen Edmond, 73
Peter Edmond and Helen Davie's son Peter was aged 7 in the 1861 census and 16 in 1871. This means that he must have been born between 1853 and 1854, not in 1858. At that age, 4 or 5 years is quite a large difference.
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If Peter is your ancestor - does his marriage or death cert confirm his mother’s maiden name was Davie?
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I know for a fact that Peter Edmond is my great grandfather. His death certificate from 1908 shows that he was 50 when he died. His marriage certificate from 1879 shows he was 24. It also states that his parents are Peter Edmond and Helen Davie. So there is a question of his birth, between 1855 and 1858, however, based on these facts and that I have an aunt named Helen Davie Edmond, I know this is the correct person.
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That's fine, gets that one out of the way.
If he was 24 in 1879, he was born in 1853 or 1854, which tallies with the 1861 and 1871 censuses, more or less. His age at death is more likely to be wrong than his age in census/marriage certificate.