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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: roycymru on Friday 17 November 17 12:54 GMT (UK)
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Hello
The above is my grandfather who was a sergeant and M.P. in 2nd Battalion Welsh Regiment. I have tried over the years to find more about his Army Records but with no luck and I can't even find him (definitively) in the Medal Rolls Index, it looks like his records were one of those destroyed in the WW2 bombing. I know he was a talented boxer and someone has just sent me his obituary which states he was commissioned in 1917 and 3 times Army Boxing Champion of the Rhine. I am hoping this information might lead to me able to search for other records of him in the army. Any suggestions?
Was known as Gladney or W.G. and hailed from Pontyberem, Gwendraeth Row and 10 Railway Terrace.
See picture attached for possible further clues. the 1914 on the picture must be an incorrect reference
Regards
Any suggestions?
Regards
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Which one is your man?
Do you know his Regiment?
Could he have still been serving after 1920? As he was 3 times boxing champion of the Army of occupation indicates he was. If so his records are still with the MOD but are available on request + £30.
The L/Cpl has a medal ribbon & 3 GC chevrons.(thought it was the MC but that was only awarded to Officers) so as yet unidentified. It doesn't look like one of the SA medals.
The Sgt. is possibly Regimental Police.
The medic looks to be RA but hard to tell.
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Sorry, should have said, Gladney is the one in the middle. A few years ago I did write to the Army personnel centre MS Support division and they sent me what they had, which unfortunately was not a lot. Main info was on an application form for commission in the TA reserve officers for service with ACF in 1942. In his application he says was in the 2nd Battalion Welsh Regiment and was decommissioned in Jan 1919. The rest of the documentation relates to his time in the Army Cadet Force where he got to the rank of Major.
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You can imagine how many Davies' there were in the Welsh Regiments.
1 W.G. Davies Sgt. but he was in the 19th. Batt. demobbed Jan. 1919.
A couple of 2/Lt's by the name of G. Davies both missing in action in 1915.
I'll see if I can find their war diary.
Have you found his commission date in the London Gazette?
Edit:
The diary names all Officers being demobbed Jan. - Mar. 1919 & he isn't listed. There is a Lt. G. Davies in the Batt. but he was still with them up to being posted to the 1/6th. Welsh in Mar. 1919.
His commission date might help find him.
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What I have about his commission from the documents supplied is
T.A.R.O Commission
Ref. no. P/290152/1
Davies, William Gladney
Count cadet commitee: Brecknock&Hereford
Commissioned: 2/Lt.w.e.f: 25/11/42
Extract from London Gazette dated: 31/8/43
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You said in your original post he was commissioned in 1917.
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Sorry, confusing you and me! The only commissioning reference I have is in relation to the army cadet force in WW2. So you are saying there there should also be some reference to his commissioning in 1917, referred to in his obituary, in the London gazette?
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Correct.
Don't take this the wrong way but are you sure he was decommissioned & not just demobbed as an NCO.
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No offence taken at all, and apologies for my lack of understanding on the subject and terminology. Reading again it does say he was demobilised not decommissioned Jan 1919, apologies. Family history says he started officer training but did not not complete because it the end of the war. Although his obituary says "commissioned in 1917", recollections from my late grandfather say he and a bunch of his pals walked to Carmarthen to sign up.
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I don't want to go too far off topic but there are one or two things that don't add up.
Officer training didn't take long for NCO's so he would have completed it well before the end of the war.
Also the Officer bit got me confused as Officers didn't box although they did take part in other sports.
The 2nd. Welsh entered Germany on Dec. 21st. 1918 so a very short stay if he was demobbed the following month.
So I think he was demobbed as an NCO & may be the W.G. Davies from above as it wasn't unusual for men to be posted to other Batts. particularly after the war.
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Thank you. Do you have any more on this W.G. Davies
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Searched through my stuff and found a couple of more pictures of him. Told the badge on his hat is a Royal Welsh one? For second "boxing" picture says Winner East Anglian Tournament which is even more confusing!
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Googling found reference to " Army Boxing Championships published in the Times" during this period. Does anyone have access to these records
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The white band and his officers style uniform indicate he was an officer cadet when the photo was taken. East Anglia is not confusing really, as an example the 18th Battalion came back from France in May 1918 to be reconstituted after losses and was stationed in North Walsham in Norfolk before going back to France in June that year. Check out all the Welsh Regt battalions here http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/welsh-regiment/
and you'll find more than one stationed in East Anglia at different times.
MaxD
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May have missed one or two - these Welsh Regt battalions were in East Anglia at one time or another
2/7th, 18th, 23rd, 25th, 51st, 52nd.
East Anglian Tournament has the ring of an inter battalion competition within those elements
of the regiment in E Anglia (guesswork).
MaxD
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I don't think Sgt. Wm. G Davies 31568 19/Batt. is your man although he was demobbed Jan. 1919.
There's no indication of postings to other Batts. & the 19th. were not part of the Army of Occupation.
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Thanks for all your feedback, things are making more sense now. So it does look like he was in "a" Welsh Regiment, in his own hand on the application for the AFC he states "2nd battalion Welsh" so I have no real reason to doubt this, though from what your are saying it doesn't quite fit the facts available?
Am I right in assuming that the statement "commissioned in 1917" can't be right and that it was more likely he just joined up in 1917 rather than being commissioned?
Do you think there has also been some licence/loss of understanding overtime regarding "three time Army boxing champion of the Rhine", as my understanding is that the Army Of The Rhine was not formed until 1919 but he was demobbed in Jan 1919, or is the army of The Rhine a completely separate thing and he still could have been "champion of the Rhine"
I have previously looked at all possible variations of William Gladney Davies in the Medal Rolls index and all seemed to lead to a dead end. My assumption is that any records of his relating to WW1 were destroyed in the bombing in WW2, which is why the Army Personnel Centre can't find anything either. This is why I am perusing the boxing angle in case some Army "boxing/tournament" records exist on that might give more information on his Army career.
I am afraid you will have to bear with me on my lack of understanding on how the regiments etc. Worked
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The 1st. photo shows him in a pre-economy tunic (1916) so although the photo may have been taken after 1916 it does show he was a serving soldier prior to that date.
What we don't know is if he was a serving soldier before the war or a pre-war Territorial.
Whichever there should be a medal card for him including the 14 Star medal as the 2nd. Batt. went to France Aug. 1914. The medal card will have a qualifying date of 13/8/14 on it.
This would mean searching the MIC's for a WG/W/G Davies Sgt.
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Mmmm. He was born Mar 1897, so 18 in 1915, so in theory should not have been able to sign up before then, so I am guessing then maybe prewar territorial in Pontyberem or surrounding area. I will have another look through the cards I found
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He could sign up aged 18 but couldn't go overseas until 19 although many lied about their age so they could.
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I'm not sure if this relates to your WGD, think it's only a transcription record
Don’t have access to F M P to take a look for you sorry this record doesn't appear to be on Anc*y :(
Davies Gladney 1914-20 Britain, Campaign, Gallantry & Long Service Medals & Awards
You obviously know who he married but in case you don't have the record it's also available to view on F M P
Davies William Gladney 1922 Carmarthenshire Marriages And Banns
Dafen, Carmarthenshire, Wales Transcription/Image
Davies William Gladney 1898 —1922 Carmarthenshire Marriages And Banns
Pontyberem, Carmarthenshire, Wales Transcription/Image
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Thanks. Come across this before but discounted for the following reasons, which I assume are still valid?
"I would say he was a pre-War Territorial Force soldier with his first No 816, After Jan 1917 his No was 288073 This No was issue to the 6th Battalion Welsh Regiment.
This Gladney did not go overseas with the 1/6th Bn until 1916. This was because he would have
been training the new lads who had joined up in to the New Battalion the 2/6th Welsh Regt.
2/6th Welsh Regt.
Formed at Swansea Dec 1914, in Nov 1915 the Bn was absorbed by 2/5th Royal Welsh Fusiliers at
Bedford.
After this Gladney would have moved back to his old Battalion the 1/6th Bn and then
moved overseas to meet up with them, this is on the medal index card. 816 Sgt G.Davies.
Number 288073 was issued to 6th Battalion Welsh Regt (on 1 March 1917) - they were the Pioneer
Battalion to 1st Division on the Western Front.
Number 816 was his old territorial number issued on 1 April 1908 on the formation of the 6th
Battalion Welsh Regt TF. The low number - i.e. 816 then he served before 1908 in the old
Glamorgan Volunteer Rifles. This unit was based in Swansea."
NO WAY COULD HE HAVE SERVED BEFORE 1908 AS HE ONLY BORN 1897 AND WAS LIVING IN
PONTYBEREM NOT SWANSEA
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Don't discount him just yet.
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I'd venture a scenario that has him joining one of the Welsh Regiment graduated battalions towards the end of the war and training as an officer cadet. War ends and he leaves or ceases officer training (mentioned in the first post). UK service only, thus no medal card. No LG entry of a commission in that time frame. There is one newspaper report of a cadet taking part in a boxing display Bury St Edmunds in Nov 1918 - not a competition and not him but suggestive of cadets taking part in boxing to develop their characters (that's what the PT busters said anyway).
Joins up again post war, or stays in and goes to Germany with an unknown battalion. Finishes his service with 2nd Battalion so puts that one on his later ACF application.
Proof - none.
MaxD
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A reasonable summary or could have joined the TF at 16 but didn't qualify for overseas service until age 19 & went overseas with the 6th. (or his original Batt. as he was only attached to the 6th.) hence the BW & V medals. Posted to 2/Batt. & put forward for Officer training but returned to 2/Batt. as an NCO. Went to Germany with them as part of the Army of Occupation (the 6th. never went).