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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: carom on Saturday 18 November 17 15:32 GMT (UK)

Title: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: carom on Saturday 18 November 17 15:32 GMT (UK)
According to her 1896 death cert. she was born in 1811. I think I have traced her in the census from 1851 to 1881 working as a live in cook. Her birthplace appears to be Bradninch or Cullompton, but I can't find a record online.
She had a daughter Emma born about 1852, supposedly in Newton Abbot, but again no obvious record. Emma's marriage cert. states that her father was William Venn, engineer, but again no record of a marriage or census entry, so assume William was invented for respectability and that Emma was illegitimate.
So I am back looking for records of any Venn's living  in the Cullompton area, no luck so far , can anyone help?
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 18 November 17 15:49 GMT (UK)
I think this is her in 1841? In Salcombe Regis.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQTB-HQB

According to this page, there is as yet no Online Parish Clerk for either Bradninch or Cullompton?
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/OPCproject#Listing
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: Milliepede on Saturday 18 November 17 15:52 GMT (UK)
It's a great name isn't it.

Is this her in 1881 with a son Richard and grandson?

T Venn widow 68 nurse
Richard 26 son disabled naval seaman born Heavitree Devon
John W 16 grandson? printer born Heavitree Devon

John Woolaway Venn birth Sep 1864 St Thomas - no mothers maiden name

Not finding a birth for Richard
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: Treetotal on Saturday 18 November 17 15:54 GMT (UK)
There are these births:

VENN, EMMA    MM   POPE 
GRO Reference: 1851  J Quarter in TIVERTON  Volume 10  Page 303

   
GRO Reference: 1850  J Quarter in ST THOMAS  Volume 10  Page 258   
VENN, EMMA       BLEASE 

EDIT..The Tiverton one is the Daughter of William and Elizabeth living in London in 1891  ::)

Carol
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Saturday 18 November 17 16:01 GMT (UK)
Think this maybe her bapt

https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5a074931f493fd7f65783c05?search_id=5a105914f4040b29748f0eb8&ucf=false

Some possible siblings same father/area

Cas
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: Milliepede on Saturday 18 November 17 16:09 GMT (UK)
Good find that looks like her.

There are two 1871 entries for Richard Venn - patient Royal Naval hospital Plymouth which would tie in with the 1881 census info and boy 2nd class on the Impregnable vessels.

Birth 6 Dec 1855 per naval record.

There's a death in 1883 age 30 that could be him. 
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: Milliepede on Saturday 18 November 17 16:15 GMT (UK)
Quote
I think I have traced her in the census from 1851 to 1881 working as a live in cook.

Where do you have her in 1861?  I take it no children are with her - where was Emma?
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: Treetotal on Saturday 18 November 17 16:18 GMT (UK)
Looks like she is with Daughter Emma  Coles in 1891:


Emma Coles
[Emma Venn]
Gender:   Female
Age:   39
Relationship:   Wife
Birth Year:   1852
Mother:   Tryfona Venn
Spouse:   Matthew J H Coles
Child:   Margaret Coles
Robert Coles
Archibald Coles
John Coles
Hubert Coles
Florence Coles

Carol
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: jennifer c on Saturday 18 November 17 16:19 GMT (UK)
1861 Bath Road Heavitree

Thomas Venn 47 Ag Lab
Jane 48
Emma 19
John 11
Richard 8 all born Heavitree except Jane (Rockbeurne?)

Jennifer
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: jennifer c on Saturday 18 November 17 16:22 GMT (UK)
Wonder if T Venn in 1881 should be J Venn?

Jennifer
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: Milliepede on Saturday 18 November 17 16:28 GMT (UK)
Is Emma down as niece in 1871?  Age 22 or is that too old for her :-\

Richard Pitts 28
Mary Stere 23
James Riggs 11
Emma Venn 22 nurse
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: carom on Saturday 18 November 17 16:34 GMT (UK)
Thanks for all the leads, that certainly looks like her in the Cullompton baptismal register, strange that it didn't come up on IGI.

In the 1861 census she appears on Ancestry, but not on IGI, as Trefina Venn working as a cook in the household of a Major-General in Marylebone. I don't currently have an ancestry sub. and did not print a copy of the image when I found it a few years ago.

In 1891 she was living with her daughter and son in law Matthew Coels in Walthamstow.
Emma does not seem to have lived with her, I assumed she was probably living with relatives while her mother worked as a live in cook.
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: Treetotal on Saturday 18 November 17 16:39 GMT (UK)
Are these related then:

1861:

William Venn   46 Farmer of 30 acres Born. Cullompton
Augusta Venn   45
Richard Venn   16
Thomas Venn   13
Tryphena Venn   11
Ann Venn   8
William Venn   4

Children born in Uffculme, Devon apart from Richard born in Burlescombe.
Carol
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: keyboard86 on Saturday 18 November 17 17:04 GMT (UK)
Hi as IGI is associated with FindMyPast the 1861 census shows her as TUFINA VINN b 1819
Census ref RG09/3/120/50
Note, found by using the census reference
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: keyboard86 on Saturday 18 November 17 17:44 GMT (UK)
Hi as IGI is associated with FindMyPast the 1861 census shows her as TUFINA VINN b 1819
Census ref RG09/3/120/50
Note, found by using the census reference
Keyboard86

Where have you Tryphena in 1871 census, the one in 1861 is working as a Cook for a Henry Floyd, in 1871 a Tryphena Venn b 1817 Cullompton is a House Keeper for a Charles G Floyd b Italy in Downham, Norfolk?
Census ref RG10/1866/24/5
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: keyboard86 on Saturday 18 November 17 18:55 GMT (UK)
Hi again in your opening post you mention Tryphena was born in Bradninch or Cullompton, Their is a Tryphina Venn 35 Single occ Cook b BRADNICH working for a William G Clarke in 1851 census Sidmouth, Devon.
Census ref HO107/1864/347/7
The whereabouts of the Tryphena b c 1811 you have 1851 to 1881 would help?
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: carom on Saturday 18 November 17 19:28 GMT (UK)
Hi,
I was just about to list the census details I have when you posted again, thanks for all the info.
I have:
1851 Sidmouth, cook to Clarke
1861 Westbourne Terrace Paddington cook to Henry Floyd
1871 Holme Norfolk house keeper to Rector Christopher Floyd, who I have just discovered was the son of Henry.
1881 Epping Essex,listed as Uryphena Venn suddenly 10 years younger , cook to Houblon
1891 Walthamstow with daughter and son in law and family, Coels.
I think this must be the same woman. Now just have to prove she is my ancestor.
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: keyboard86 on Saturday 18 November 17 19:31 GMT (UK)
OK So now we have a Tryphena b c 1816/1819?
The 1881 shows her as b c 1822 a Widow b Brunish? Occ Cook in Epping.
Census ref RG11/1737/41/30
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: carom on Saturday 18 November 17 19:37 GMT (UK)

I think if she was still having to work at 70 she may have  fibbed about her actual age!
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: keyboard86 on Saturday 18 November 17 19:40 GMT (UK)
 ;D But from 1851 for what ever reason she " fibbed" about her true age?!
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: carom on Saturday 18 November 17 19:46 GMT (UK)
Well she seems to have fibbed about having a husband!
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: keyboard86 on Saturday 18 November 17 20:34 GMT (UK)
Hi again, ok would I be correct Emma Coels died 1899 West Ham 4a 181 aged 47, if so an Emma to trace from c 1852 to marriage?!
Keyboard86
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: carom on Saturday 18 November 17 22:05 GMT (UK)
All I know of Emma for certain is that she married at St George's Hanover Square in1874 age 22. Marriage cert states father was William Venn, engineer. In 1881 census she is living in Westminster with husband  Matthew Coels and children, then in 1891 with family plus mother in Walthamstow. She died age 47 in Walthamstow.

As I never found the three of them as a family unit I started working backwards and traced Tryphena as a live- in cook, next step to trace Emma possibly with relatives, but as yet nothing obvious.
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: Milliepede on Saturday 18 November 17 22:11 GMT (UK)
What about the Emma who is a niece in 1871 - do you think that is a different Emma? 

That Emma was a nurse and I see Matthew was a surgeon. 
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: carom on Saturday 18 November 17 22:33 GMT (UK)
Sorry for not replying to you Milliepede.  This could be my Emma, just can't see a  connection as yet.
It turns out that Matthew Coels was a surgeon's assistant rather than a surgeon, prior to that he had been a valet. He was born in Germany and became a naturalised citizen in 1875.
They have been an interesting lot to research as I've learnt about naturalization, what happened to German immigrants re WW1etc
Title: Re: Tryphena Venn - woman of mystery
Post by: keyboard86 on Saturday 18 November 17 22:50 GMT (UK)
The 1871 household is headed by Fanny Spark she married as Fanny Windeat to George Spark Dec qtr 1862 Exeter 5b 151, by 1881 she is married to the Richard Pitts in 1871 household
Keyboard86