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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Janelle on Sunday 19 November 17 06:14 GMT (UK)

Title: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Sunday 19 November 17 06:14 GMT (UK)
Margaret Harper married George William Williams 10 Feb 1853 at Fryers Creek, Victoria.

M and G W have 12 children firstly at Fryers Creek and then at Chewton. Youngest child Ellen Lettitia b 1874.
I expect that he was a coal miner as some of his sons are involved in this endeavour.

I have bought their marriage certificate and her death certificate. I can't find a death for George William.

No ages, nor profession, birthplace, parents on their marriage certificate.
The document is not a regular printed form. It is a handwritten certificate made out by the Church of Scotland minister James Low, it starts with George certifying that he is a member of or hold communion with that church.
George and Margaret both sign, as do their witnesses.
The witnesses were a German couple, Henry and Maria Matz, who according to Anc* trees move away to South Australia.
If George was 21 years old he would have been born 1830.

On Margaret's death certificate ...
Died Feb 1910 at Chewton, informant was a son in law William Scott, married to her 5 child Emma.
Her age was given as 75, so born about 1836, and birthplace Wales, 57 years in Victoria, married at age 17 to George William Williams.
She might have arrived in Victoria within the year prior to her 1853 marriage, so during 1852.
Her parents unknown to the informant.

In the 1903 electoral roll, which is probably the earliest available as just after federation, M is a nurse, living in nearby Walhalla, another mining town, George is not present.

So, what I can not find from the records available is anything of Margaret's origins is she possibly came from Wales, that they were both literate.

Iím researching for my auntieís 90 year old boyfriend, a direct descendant of Margaret and George William Williams, and their son 2nd son William Nathan b 1859 d 1895.

The other day I posted a message on an old post about solider Duncan Harper and wife Letitia Kennedy Harper and the baptism of their dau Margaret Harper in Kent 1834
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=508263.0
there is a 2nd almost identical post with subject line all lower case by same RC'er
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=504378.msg3621518#msg3621518

As I said on that thread, I can not see a link to these people. Anc* throws out the 1834 Kent baptism as a hint. No trees that are quoting this are showing Margaret's death certificate, so no proof.

These same trees have grabbed another GWW who died 1888 in Caulfield, but he was married to Susannah, and was more likely to own the mine than be digging in one.

Any suggestions for finding Margaret's journey to Victoria as a young woman c 1852?

Any suggestions for finding George Williams' origins or his death?

Salute,
Janelle

Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: rosball on Sunday 19 November 17 06:46 GMT (UK)
Hi Janelle,
   Here is an obit to Margaret http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198864240
and a description of her funeral and more family info http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198863338

  Ros
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 19 November 17 06:58 GMT (UK)
Her Death notice describes her as.... Relict of George WILLIAMS....


http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198863338?

This may of course, not be the truth but a face-saving device. However, worth noting

Here is a 1886 sighting for George  in Chewton with family.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/88538155

Sue

Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 19 November 17 07:45 GMT (UK)

Have you phoned the Chewton Cemetery and asked for a check of their register?

http://www.australiancemeteries.com.au/vic/mt_alexander/chewton.htm

Is George there?

Sue
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Sunday 19 November 17 23:11 GMT (UK)
Thankyou guys for the trove links.

Didnít think of that 😂

Iím not very skilled at searching in my own backyard, ie 1800ís Australia, and Victoria especially as my own ancestors were nsw and qld.

Iím on route to work now so will check out your information, links and advise later on.

Salute,
Janelle
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: cando on Monday 20 November 17 00:19 GMT (UK)
Could this be his death?

WILLIAMS George William
Parents unknown
At Kew Lunatic Asylum  60 years  1892  Reg#10727

https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/health-and-welfare/mental-health-records-1849-1912
WILLIAMS George William  60 years  Born London  Occupation Miner
Hospital record  2 Aug 1892  Kew
Source Kew Asylum case books 1871-1912.  VPRS 7398/P1 13.

https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/inquests-and-other-coronial-records/inquests-deaths-deposition
WILLIAMS George William
Cause of death Acute inflammation of lungs
Location of inquest: Kew Asylum Date of inquest 31 Aug 1892

Link to file download the file.  Click on view record.  He was admitted to the Asylum with dementia.  It was the usual practice to conduct an inquest to deaths in public institutions in that era.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l2p/

Cando

Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: judb on Monday 20 November 17 06:08 GMT (UK)
There is a (very) tenuous link to the baptism of a Margaret HARPER at Chatham, UK in November 1834, as the mother of this child is given as "Letitia" and George and Margaret's youngest child is Ellen Letitia WILLIAMS.
 
This death is shown on the Australian death index:
   Letitia HARPER,85, residence Adelaide
Died 21 Sep 1893 at Adelaide
Registered: Adelaide South Australia, Page 27, Vol 213

The only person mentioned in the death and funeral notices for this lady is her son-in-law, George INNES.   :-\ Notices say she is a colonist of 45 years - arrival abt 1848.  (Notices found in TROVE, search September 1893)

Judith
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: judb on Monday 20 November 17 06:33 GMT (UK)
This would appear to be the arrival for Letitia
HARPER, Letitia (wife), 1/2 ch arrived in SA 1848-10-23 aboard Roman Emperor from London

No-one else of that surname on that passenger list.
http://www.familyhistorysa.org//shipping/passengerlists.html

Newspaper reports say that most passengers of this voyage of the Roman Emperor were Irish orphans. 

This report mentions Mrs Harper
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206979947
Shipping: October 23óThe ship Roman. Emperor, 792 tons, W. Champion, from Plymouth. Passengers
óMr James Burnham. R. Eades, M.D.. Mrs Eades and infant, Mr and Mrs Maguire and four children. Miss Taylor, Miss Gamble, Mrs Harper, 8 married couple 8 children, and 219 Irish Orphan
female emigrants. No deaths occurred during the Voyage.


Judith
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Monday 20 November 17 10:23 GMT (UK)
There is a (very) tenuous link to the baptism of a Margaret HARPER at Chatham, UK in November 1834, as the mother of this child is given as "Letitia" and George and Margaret's youngest child is Ellen Letitia WILLIAMS.
 
This death is shown on the Australian death index:
   Letitia HARPER,85, residence Adelaide
Died 21 Sep 1893 at Adelaide
Registered: Adelaide South Australia, Page 27, Vol 213

The only person mentioned in the death and funeral notices for this lady is her son-in-law, George INNES.   :-\ Notices say she is a colonist of 45 years - arrival abt 1848.  (Notices found in TROVE, search September 1893)

Judith

Thankyou Judith, for your searches into Letitia Harper.

I donít see a clear link connected to Margaret.
I shall check your leads thoroughly, and post what I find.

As I said before, Margaretís d/c 1910 gives her age as 75, that she was married in Victoria to GWW at age 17, and that she was in Victoria 57 years, and born in Wales.
Their marriage was 1853, which I have the cert for, so very soon after her arriving.

The middle names that M and G gave the children might be more for fashion and be less significant than the first names, which is the red herring that Anc* trees leap to Duncan and Letitia Harper, but without evidence.

Salute,
Janelle




Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Monday 20 November 17 10:33 GMT (UK)
Could this be his death?

WILLIAMS George William
Parents unknown
At Kew Lunatic Asylum  60 years  1892  Reg#10727

https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/health-and-welfare/mental-health-records-1849-1912
WILLIAMS George William  60 years  Born London  Occupation Miner
Hospital record  2 Aug 1892  Kew
Source Kew Asylum case books 1871-1912.  VPRS 7398/P1 13.

https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/inquests-and-other-coronial-records/inquests-deaths-deposition
WILLIAMS George William
Cause of death Acute inflammation of lungs
Location of inquest: Kew Asylum Date of inquest 31 Aug 1892

....

Cando

This does look very interesting, thankyou Cando !!  ;D

I'll go shopping for the cert after I look at the other links, and will add here what I find.  ;)

Poor man, if this is his end, and his occupation would probably be the root of it.
Margaret died of cancer of the mouth, how dreadful.  :(

Thankyou, again, RC'ers for coming to my aid.   :)

Salute,
Janelle
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Monday 20 November 17 12:02 GMT (UK)
Hello Cando,

I have been looking and can't find how you have GWW's occupation, age, or origin as London.

I can get the inquest paper from the 2nd link.
Poor chap, taken away from his family and life, he went down hill real fast, very sad.

Please help me with the first.
Feeling a bit silly, :-[ but right now I reckon the PROV website is silly too :P  :-[


>>>

https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/health-and-welfare/mental-health-records-1849-1912
WILLIAMS George William  60 years  Born London  Occupation Miner
Hospital record  2 Aug 1892  Kew
Source Kew Asylum case books 1871-1912.  VPRS 7398/P1 13.

https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/inquests-and-other-coronial-records/inquests-deaths-deposition
WILLIAMS George William
Cause of death Acute inflammation of lungs
Location of inquest: Kew Asylum Date of inquest 31 Aug 1892

>>>

Cando
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: cando on Monday 20 November 17 23:50 GMT (UK)
The information is from my own resource, an index to Kew Asylum case books 1871-1912.  VPRS 7398/P1 13 compiled by Marion BUTTON. Marion, now deceased compiled many indexes to information at PROV.   My transcription is accurate.  I have given you the link to search for the info at PROV.  I really don't like the PROV site either. I no longer have the patience to search for information.

This appears to be the year 1892 case books for male patients at Kew Asylum.  The information is not online and needs to be ordered for reading in PROV North Melbourne rooms.

Case Books of Male Patients
Unit number:    13
Description:    Case Book of Male Patients
Date range:    1892 -
Public access:    Open
Format:    VH1E
Location:    North Melbourne
This Unit is part of
Series number:    VPRS 7398
Consignment number:    P0001

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l2u/

Cando
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: judb on Tuesday 21 November 17 00:02 GMT (UK)
Hi Janelle

I quite agree that there is no proven link between the Margaret HARPER you seek and the baptism in Chatham, Kent, as I said - very tenuous at best, and definitely not to be trusted.

Do you have birth certificates for any of the children?  I couldn't see any posted on the Ancestry trees but there's so many trees I may have missed one.  You say you are not as familiar with searching in Victoria so you may not be familiar with Victorian BMD records which are very comprehensive - depending, of course, on the knowledge/truthfulness of the informant.

Birth certificates:
 Date and place of birth;
 name of child and whether present or not;
 name of parents (including mother's maiden name);
 occupation of parents;
 ages and birthplace of parents;
 date and place of marriage of parents;
 previous children of their marriage noting living or deceased;
 signature, description and address of the person who gave the information;
 names of witnesses;
 date and place of registration.

It's likely that the informant for a birth record is one of the parents so the information is contemporary rather than information on a death certificate given by someone who did not know the deceased until late in life.

You know, of course, that a digital record of the registry entry is downloadable.
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history
Worth a try perhaps!

Judith
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Tuesday 21 November 17 11:02 GMT (UK)
Thankyou Cando,

So pleased that you have Marion's PROV index and shared it with me.  :-*
George is less of a mystery now. I'll just go and flex the plastic at the bmd vic to get a download of his death cert.  8)

Salute
Janelle

The information is from my own resource, an index to Kew Asylum case books 1871-1912.  VPRS 7398/P1 13 compiled by Marion BUTTON. Marion, now deceased
>>>

Cando
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: cando on Tuesday 21 November 17 12:00 GMT (UK)
Quite often information is scant on Victorian death certs for those who died in public institutions even if information was known by staff.

Cando
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Tuesday 21 November 17 12:02 GMT (UK)
The bmd vic site isn't working at the mo. How frustrating  :'( 
Can't get George's death cert !!

Thankyou Judith, for your advice,
Its as you say, its what is quoted by the informant and recorded by the registrar on the day. Margaret H and GWW were very young when they married, they might not have had any local extended family and so their children's knowledge of their history might have been sparse.
And GWW died at that awful hospital, probably without any family present to register his death. I'll try again tomorrow to get his d/c.  :)

Auntie's beau originally told me his Victorian born mum's history and gave me copies of
his b/c,
his mum's b/c - Elizabeth Ellen Chance 1907,
his mum's parents m/c - Margaret Williams and Job Chance 1899,
Margaret Chance formerly Williams - his mum's mum's d/c 1910.
Margaret Williams' b/c 1879,
Job Chance's b/c 1874

This Margaret Williams is a granddaughter of Margaret Harper and GWW.

I've downloaded 3 marriages and 1 death at $25 a pop to get to the right Margaret Harper.
I shall confer with Auntie's beau if he wants to be laying outfor more than GWW's d/c because he's only missing the ones for his ggp's, 3 x 25 if I leave out the b/c's.  :-\
They are not really needed by me to establish relationships, just evidence if desired.

Thanks again, Cando, Judith and Sue,
I shall be printing out this adventure to share with Auntie's beau  ;D

Salute,
Janelle
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Tuesday 21 November 17 12:10 GMT (UK)
Messages crossed in cyberspace, Cando. Mabye nothing to gain from his d/c, as you say.

The inquest has the date of his death, and Auntie's beau can decide what we should be risking our cash on.
I think looking at his admission papers would be a better exercise.
But that means braving PROV's website again  ::)

Salute,
Janelle
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: cando on Tuesday 21 November 17 20:54 GMT (UK)
I gave you the link in reply#11 to the case books and the files are not online. I took the info from my index and matched it with the resource info at PROV. You need to visit PROV.  Admission "papers" are possibly only a line in a register with his name, admission date etc.  I wouldn't bank on too much more info.

The link again to the resource at PROV with facility to order for reading in their rooms.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l2u/

Cando
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: judb on Tuesday 21 November 17 23:36 GMT (UK)
Does your friend have the birth certificate for his ancestor the 2nd son William Nathan b 1859 d 1895? 

Seems to me that this birth cert (or a cert for any of the children) should answer the questions about the birthplaces for George and Margaret - always assuming the correct information was given at the time! It would be the one I would be ordering first - they do get expensive!

Judith
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Wednesday 22 November 17 21:09 GMT (UK)
Oh you are right of course, Judith,  ;D :-[

I bought the death cert for GWW before I read your post oops,
The asylum folks knew nothing of his family - a dementia sufferer not forthcoming, understandably.  :-X
SO, went shopping again !!
and I'm attaching a snip from the download for William Nathan's b/c
and all will be revealed, drum roll, tata
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: cando on Wednesday 22 November 17 22:25 GMT (UK)
Why do think the asylum staff knew nothing about his family?  The Police Constable present at the inquest would be the informant on his death certificate.  This was normal procedure.  Occasionally the deceased marital status will be noted and occasionally the spouse's name and if you a lucky, the number of chn.

Of course you already had the information that George W was born London from the index to the Kew Asylum Case Books.  There may be more information in the case books but doubtful about the admissions register.  A visit to PROV may be necessary if you want more information about the few weeks George was a patient at Kew.

You would need to see his death certificate to find his place of burial however in 1892 it was possibly Melbourne General Cemetery as there is no record at Kew Cemetery, Coburg or St Kilda and Springvale and Fawkner weren't operating until 1901 and 1906 respectively.

MGC burial records are not online but I usually receive a response for information within 24 hours.    mgc@smct.org.au   Give as much detail as possible with your request.

Good luck.
Cando :)

Edit I see you have his death cert.
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Wednesday 22 November 17 23:24 GMT (UK)
 :) GWW was buried at Melbourne cemetery according to his d/c.

We can’t know much else new though from his d/c.
His birth year is different, the place is vague, family unknown, married is written in brackets

GWW is the informant for William Nathan’s b/c, 1859, and gives his age as 38 so born c 1821, London.
He states Margaret Harper is 26 so she was born c 1833 and birthplace Chatham, England. So that gets us back to Kent?

He saysor is recorded as saying they only had one previous child, deceased, but I have Mary Ann b 1855 and George Oswald (or Haswell on his baptism transcription) b 1857.
Mary Ann I am sure married William Windsor.
Maybe George junior died as a baby because I don’t find him as an adult. No marriage or electoral roll.

You know what, guys - I should be at work so will get back to this later. Procrasta-rootschatting  ;D ;D the best kind   8) ;D
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: judb on Thursday 23 November 17 00:20 GMT (UK)
Edit to add:
This is not the right man as there is a digitised letters of administration for this man showing his widow as Elizabeth WILLIAMS - see post below.

There is a George William WILLIAMS baptism at St Mary's, Lambeth, 1 November, 1826.  Parents: John Mark WILLIAMS, surgeon and Charlotte; living at Elizabeth Place. This doesn't quite fit with the birthdate shown on other documents; there is no mention in the parish record of the age of this child.

This transcription of a headstone for the above person shows that it's not the same George William WILLIAMS as the man who died at Kew in 1892

Victoria, Australia, Cemetery Records and Headstone Transcriptions, 1844-1997
Name   George Wm Williams
Death Date   29 Mar 1888
Burial Place   Victoria, Australia
Cemetery   Melbourne
Section   L
Grave Number   665/666
Religion   C-E

Left side: Sacred to the memory of Charlotte relict of John Mark WILLIAMS Surgeon, London. She died 30 Oct 1862 age 64 yrs. Rev.XXI.4. Right side: Sacred to the memory of George Wm. WILLIAMS second son of John Mark WILLIAMS Surgeon, London born 5 Oct 1826, died 29 Mar 1888 also Susannah dearly beloved wife of the above born 30 Nov 1825, died 13 Jun 1870. St.John XI.25.26.


Is it quite certain that your man is the death in 1892 or could he possibly be this man? The age doesn't match exactly.  Will dig a bit further to see there's any other records of this chap.

Judith

Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: judb on Thursday 23 November 17 00:46 GMT (UK)
The 'wrong' George WILLIAMS shown above died intestate on 21 December 1888.  His occupation is given as 'miner' and his residence Talbot, Vic.  Letters of administration were granted to his widow in 1894, listed as Elizabeth WILLIAMS of 134 Edward St, Brunswick.

prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54

Some parallels to the life of your man, though.

Judith
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: cando on Thursday 23 November 17 00:51 GMT (UK)
The GWW who died in 1888 at Caulfield was an accountant and was married to a Susanna THORPE and after her death to a Catherine DUGGAN  I did have a look at him previously.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6113922
WILLIAMS. óOn the 29th inst., at the residence of his son-in-law, Elliott Moore-Cairnes, North road, Caulfield, George William, second son of the late John Mark Williams, surgeon, London, in his 62nd year


Cando
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: cando on Thursday 23 November 17 01:32 GMT (UK)
Quote
He saysor is recorded as saying they only had one previous child, deceased, but I have Mary Ann b 1855 and George Oswald (or Haswell on his baptism transcription) b 1857.
Mary Ann I am sure married William Windsor.
Maybe George junior died as a baby because I donít find him as an adult. No marriage or electoral roll.

Could it be one children living, one deceased.  Yes poor English I know but I've read stranger things on birth certificates.  If the infant death occurred shortly after birth, neither the birth nor death may have been registered.

And that's it from me :)

Cando
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Thursday 23 November 17 11:42 GMT (UK)
Yes, I think George William Williams' life and death as the husband of Margaret Harper is sorted.

Thankyou all for your help.

Maybe the subject line should have been about him, as he overtook somewhat,  ;D :D ;)

Salute,
Janelle

Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: SueX on Tuesday 23 January 18 06:03 GMT (UK)
Hi Everyone. I have just become a member of RootsChat and I am very interested in your information on Margaret Harper as she would be my great great grandmother on my fathers side (my maiden name is Williams). Thank you for taken us one step further back in our search for our heritage.I would love to be able to fill in any gaps if I am able.
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: judb on Tuesday 23 January 18 08:02 GMT (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat, SueX

I've just had another look at the info on Margaret HARPER.

On the birth certificate of the second son, William Nathan WILLIAMS, (Reply #19) her birthplace is given as Chatham, England.  As the father was the informant it's more likely to be correct than the birthplace shown on her death certificate, where the informant was her son-in-law.

I'm not sure if this baptism, from https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2TB-12W has been posted on any of the threads, although it has been mentioned a few times.

Margaret HARPER
Christening: 02 Nov 1834 at St Mary's, Chatham, Kent, England
Father's Name:   Duncan Harper
Mother's Name:   Letitia Harper

I cannot see any of these in 1841 census.


Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: SueX on Tuesday 23 January 18 11:27 GMT (UK)
Thank you so much.This information is really valuable.
Margaret Williams was the mother of my great grandfather John Henry .My grandfather was Vincent John Williams.
Regards
Sue
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: SueX on Monday 12 February 18 00:54 GMT (UK)
Hi Everyone,
My family believe that we are the direct descendants of Margaret Harper & Gerorge Williams,who appear to have had 11 children.
Strangely though,our great grandfather John Henry has not been listed in their record of births.We believe he was born in Chewton on 11th June 1863.
Which is the best way to verify this please
With Thanks
Sue
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Dundee on Monday 12 February 18 02:23 GMT (UK)
Is the information about John Henry's parents and birthplace from his marriage cert?

John's father is named as George Haswell WILLIAMS when he died.

There was a birth registered in Victoria in 1857 for a George Oswald WILLIAMS, son of George and Margaret, but this child was baptised as George Haswell WILLIAMS, so perhaps a misunderstanding of the name.

George and Margaret had a child Eliza registered in 1863 so it would be difficult for another child to have been born in the middle of the year, though Eliza may have been born in 1862 and registered in 1863. 

The most obvious place for John to fit in is between William and Eliza.  If you get the 1864 birth cert for Emma it should show how many male and female children were living.

Apart from that you may have to find out where the children were baptised and check the church registers.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Dundee on Monday 12 February 18 02:56 GMT (UK)
Having now taken the time to read the rest of the thread  ;D I see that Janelle has Margaret's death cert so perhaps she can tell you the names and ages of the children listed there.

Also adding that in reply #19 where William Nathan's birth cert has been posted, I think the previous issue reads as "two children living one dead".

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Monday 12 February 18 03:41 GMT (UK)
Hi Everyone. I have just become a member of RootsChat and I am very interested in your information on Margaret Harper as she would be my great great grandmother on my fathers side (my maiden name is Williams). Thank you for taken us one step further back in our search for our heritage.I would love to be able to fill in any gaps if I am able.

Hello Sue

I am so sorry for my silence, but I wasnít thinking to watch for action on this topic.

Welcome to RC from me, too.

Iím at work just now, lunchtime phone internet browsing and saw this topic in the list of ďunread items ď. When I get home, and after dinner, Iíll look in detail at yours replies/questions here and help you with what I have gathered.

Salute
Janelle

Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Monday 12 February 18 12:03 GMT (UK)
Hi Everyone,
My family believe that we are the direct descendants of Margaret Harper & Gerorge Williams,who appear to have had 11 children.
Strangely though,our great grandfather John Henry has not been listed in their record of births.We believe he was born in Chewton on 11th June 1863.
Which is the best way to verify this please
With Thanks
Sue

Sue,

I have 12 Children for GWW and Margaret, as follows

1855  Mary Ann
1857  George Oswald (Haswell on his baptism)
1859 William Nathan  **
1861  John Henry  ^^
1863  Eliza
1864  Emma
1866  Alfred Robert
1868  Richard Walter
1870  Edward
1872 Agnes Louisa
1874  Charles Ernest
1876  Ellen Letitia

Victoria BDM site
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
only throws up 9 children for me - your John Henry is missing, and the eldest child Mary Ann b 1855. Some juggling of what you put in the expanded fields for father and mother's maiden name might give you success. Maybe you can contact the Registrar in Melbourne for a physical search covering the time period.
https://assets.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/transactions/family+history+help+guide

** William Nathan was my friend's great grandfather, and your John Henry was the next child for them at Fryers Creek, just outside Chewton, then the next sister Eliza was registered 1863.

^^ JH's death 24 May 1911 is before his birthday of 11 June, so he would have been just shy of 49, so birth year was 1862?

Your John Henry is in 2 public trees, and a pic of his son Vincent John with son's wife Lorna Doone Hill. what an amazing name!! Like being Tess D'urberville Smith  ;D 8)
The Blackmore who wrote LD was a cousin to the husband of my 5th great aunt Frances Warren, in and around Clayhidon, Devon.  ;D 8)

Have you checked out the 2011 posts by Teresa1 on here? Wonderful stuff ... But she isn't active these days.

I can not find evidence of how GWW or Margaret arrive separately at the gold fields.
Londoners aren't working as gold miners in London, but he never does anything else until he dies.

Anc*'s Australian Birth Index has Margaret's maiden name as ... Puceinall, against Mary Ann's registration.  :o bizzare, no wonder it isn't for me on Vic bdm,  ;D

I have found 2 of Margaret's siblings' baptisms using FindMyPast and anc*.

Salute,
Janelle
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: SueX on Monday 12 February 18 21:48 GMT (UK)
Wow! Thank you for such amazing information and for all the time that you have spent researching my request - I am truly thankful.
Vincent John Williams and Lorna Doone Hill are my grandparents on my fathers side.On what site did you see the photo of them? I would love to find it and see it myself.Unfortunately I never asked them enough questions about their lives when they were alive,so that I would know more about my family tree.
I will be travelling to Chewton early March to hopefully find out more information.
Thank you once again,for your priceless information and I look forward to piecing it all together.
Regards
Sue E
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Wednesday 14 February 18 07:54 GMT (UK)
You are most welcome Sue,

Do you have access to Ancestry? Thatís were I have seen lots of trees. Off hand I reckon every child of theirs who married and has descendants, is featured in several public trees. Enjoy;)

The tree that I made for my auntieís beau is private, so just ask via here if you want to know anything further;)

Salute,
Janelle
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Barry John Williams on Friday 06 April 18 09:46 BST (UK)
Hi Everyone,
My family believe that we are the direct descendants of Margaret Harper & Gerorge Williams,who appear to have had 11 children.
Strangely though,our great grandfather John Henry has not been listed in their record of births.We believe he was born in Chewton on 11th June 1863.
Which is the best way to verify this please
With Thanks
Sue

Sue,

I have 12 Children for GWW and Margaret, as follows

1855  Mary Ann
1857  George Oswald (Haswell on his baptism)
1859 William Nathan  **
1861  John Henry  ^^
1863  Eliza
1864  Emma
1866  Alfred Robert
1868  Richard Walter
1870  Edward
1872 Agnes Louisa
1874  Charles Ernest
1876  Ellen Letitia

Victoria BDM site
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
only throws up 9 children for me - your John Henry is missing, and the eldest child Mary Ann b 1855. Some juggling of what you put in the expanded fields for father and mother's maiden name might give you success. Maybe you can contact the Registrar in Melbourne for a physical search covering the time period.
https://assets.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/transactions/family+history+help+guide

** William Nathan was my friend's great grandfather, and your John Henry was the next child for them at Fryers Creek, just outside Chewton, then the next sister Eliza was registered 1863.

^^ JH's death 24 May 1911 is before his birthday of 11 June, so he would have been just shy of 49, so birth year was 1862?

Your John Henry is in 2 public trees, and a pic of his son Vincent John with son's wife Lorna Doone Hill. what an amazing name!! Like being Tess D'urberville Smith  ;D 8)
The Blackmore who wrote LD was a cousin to the husband of my 5th great aunt Frances Warren, in and around Clayhidon, Devon.  ;D 8)

Have you checked out the 2011 posts by Teresa1 on here? Wonderful stuff ... But she isn't active these days.

I can not find evidence of how GWW or Margaret arrive separately at the gold fields.
Londoners aren't working as gold miners in London, but he never does anything else until he dies.

Anc*'s Australian Birth Index has Margaret's maiden name as ... Puceinall, against Mary Ann's registration.  :o bizzare, no wonder it isn't for me on Vic bdm,  ;D

I have found 2 of Margaret's siblings' baptisms using FindMyPast and anc*.

Salute,
Janelle

Hi Janelle-----My name is Barry Williams.My great grandfather was John Henry Williams whose mother was Margaret Harper of whom you have described.Just wondering------the picture assigned to your name----is that Margaret Harper??????  Kind Regards   Barry
Title: Re: Margaret Harper c 1836 Wales - d 1910 Chewton, Victoria
Post by: Janelle on Sunday 17 June 18 03:44 BST (UK)
Hello Barry,

Apologies for not replying sooner. A belated WELCOME to Rootschat.

No, the lovely lady as my avatar was my great grandmother, b 1861 Tyrone, Ireland.
She was not connected to your family.

I'm not related to Margaret Harper.
Margaret Harper was my friend's 2nd great grandmother.

Do you know any of Margaret or George's history?
Have you any information about their origins that came directly from what John Henry knew about his parents?

George always gave London as his birthplace, but his age is very fluid. Was he in Victoria for long before gold was discovered? He always worked as a gold miner, from the time of his marriage to 17 year old Margaret 1853, but its not a London occupation.

and Margaret ... were her parents or any other Harper family in Australia? Her father was a soldier, probably posted to the Caribbean after she was born - see all the threads about Duncan Harper c 2011 by Teresa1 and others, and one very interesting and informative reply about his regiment.

Put Duncan Harper into the search box above ...

Anyway, happy to help you with Margaret and her family any way I can,

Janelle