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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: iforani on Monday 20 November 17 01:45 GMT (UK)
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Hi I am trying to help a woman who comes up as a dna match to me find anything about her grandfather. Her grandmother, Daisy Ethel Smith was born in Queensland, Australia in 1889 to Thomas Cobham Russell Smith and Marian Wright. Daisy married Robert Carl Schloss in 1910 at Upper Tent Hill in Qld and had children with him but she left him when she had twins named John Gilbert Gordon and Arthur James Gordon at Toowoomba, Qld in 1921. This woman is trying to establish via dna testing, the paternity of her father who was Arthur James Gordon (1921-1992). It seems that her husband Robert Schloss may not have been the father.
I have tried suggesting the process of elimination (eliminating descendants of her mother as well as her father's mother but this is difficult given that she is not a member of ancestry.com). If anyone could suggest how she might go about finding out who was a possible father of Arthur and if his name was actually Gordon this would be appreciated. Thanks, Deb
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Daisy Gordon is the next of kin on Arthur James Gordon service record. He also gives his birth date as 1920 not 1921
Do you have the twin's birth certificates?
Arthur James Gordon
Birth Date: 18 Jul 1920 At Toowoomba Queensland
Enlisted Warwick Queensland
Service number - QX18045
Next of Kin - Daisy Gordon
Series Description B883: Army, 2nd Al F
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John gives a different birth year to Arthur on his record
John Gilbert Gordon
Birth Date: 18 July 1919 at Toowoomba Queensland
Service number QX62780
Spouse - Joan Gordon
Series Description B883: Army, 2nd Al F
ancestry isn't coming up with anything other than the service records for them. No birth records, no electoral rolls.
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From the marriage certificate, (if he married)
who did Arthur nominate as his father?
JM
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Wow, you are on the ball already, thanks! I copied the dates from ancestry trees that said 1921 as the birth date. I guess it is 1920 if that's what the records state. I would say that John made himself a year older to enlist? They were definitely twins (both born 18th July).
No, I don't have the marriage certificate but I have just messaged Arthur's daughter if she has it. I couldn't find anything on them either which is why I put it up here.
She has the birth certificate of her father and Peter James Gordon. I can find no record of a Peter James Gordon. Apparently there was some talk of the father being from Charleville and there is a Peter Roderick Gordon who lived there at that time.
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There is a Daisy Gordon in the electoral rolls at Warwick Darling Downs in 1931 and 1932. Warwick isn't that far from Toowoomba where the twins enlisted.
With Daisy at Albion Street is a Peter Roderick Gordon, a labourer. This is just a very long shot. it would be good if we could find Arthur with her.
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It looks like this is your Daisy as she is using the middle name Ethel in the 1943 electoral rolls but she is at North St, Gatton Darling Downs and by herself.
Daisy Ethel Gordon 20 Dragon St, Warwick in 1949. Again she is the only Gordon at that address.
The only time I can see Peter Roderick Gordon in the electoral rolls with Daisy is in 1931/32.
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This is just great!!~! I am so excited that you have so quickly managed to locate this person living with her. I was looking for Daisy Schloss and didn't even consider looking for Daisy Gordon as I don't think that they ever got married, but most likely she did this for legitimacy for her children. There is a tree for Peter Roderick Gordon on ancestry.com. I will pass your findings onto this lady. She will be happy as you have managed to resolve her family puzzle!!! Thank you so so much. :)
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PS Please Crisane, could you copy and paste that record for Peter Roderick Gordon in Warwick in 1931-32 as this is a huge revelation for that family? Thanks so much, Deb :D
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I can certainly send you a cutting of the Electoral roll entry.
Have you also thought of asking your local library if they have the free version of ancestry? many of them do and you can print it - for a price - or save to a USB stick and then load on to your computer. I will do the electoral roll later to send, now I have to feed the hungry hoards.
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Thanks so much, Crisane. I am a member of ancestry.com and have managed to find that link now, so don't worry about posting it. I don't know how I missed it. Thank you so much for finding this link to this girl's family. It means a lot to her and her brother. I have just seen that her grandfather had at least two brothers so she will have cousins!! Thanks again! Deb :D
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I love a happy ending ;D
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Peter was in Charleville in 1935
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/76561264
Do you need background on Peter's parents?
Sue
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This may be of interest to you.
At Charleville Cemetery a MI
GORDON, Peter Roderick
died 1/1/1970
Aged 87 years.
Our Uncle
His parents are also interred there with one Norman GORDON
EDIT Sorry, The woman with Peter's father (Murdoch) is possibly Murdoch's second wife, not Peter's mother.
Sue
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This is the death of the second wife.
1914/C809 Catherine McIntyre GORDON
Parents James McITYRE Catherine SINCLAIR
I cannot be sure which of the two wives, both forenamed Catherine is interred with Murdoch.
No further information given.
However there is a seperate MI entry for the 1914 death This may or may not be part of Murdoch's headstone.
GORDON, Catherine.
Died 4/2/1942 edit 1914
Aged 60 years
Mother
Sue
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Thanks, Sue that's just great. Will pass this on too. I copied another site that had Peter dying 01.01.1972 so thanks for that. All of this help is much appreciated.
The one you have quoted is his second wife. The first Catherine (McGregor) died earlier..Catherine died 23 Mar 1884, bur: Morven Cem, Qld. Her parents were apparently...: Peter McGregor and Mary McGibbon.
Children of Murdock and Catherine were: John William Gordon,born 3 Aug 1879,Qld.
Peter Roderick Gordon ,born 28 Nov 1881,Qld, bur 1 Jan 1972,Charleville Cem.Qld.
Alexander Gordon,born 28 Oct 1883,bur 28 April 1966,Charleville Cem,Qld.
Thanks again, Deb
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John William Gordon,born 3 Aug 1879,Qld.
This son most generally used the name William John GORDON.
He died in QLD
1968 C5282 William GORDON
Parents Murdoch GORDON Catherine MACGREGOR
And is buried-
GORDON, William, d. 09.09.1968, Aged 89 yrs,
with Eveline C. GORDON.
MI, At Goombungee
He married his illigitimate step sister.
Her birth
1889 B42723 Catherine MCINTYRE
Father-
Mother Catherine MCINTYRE
Marriage
1909 C554 William John GORDON
Evelyn Catherine MCINTYRE
Her death
1964 C2841 Catherine GORDON
Father-
Mother Catherine MCINTYRE
Her MI
GORDON, Eveline C. Died. 19.05.1964. Aged 75 yrs , MI at Goombungee
The burial with Murdoch and Catherine GORDON is her son.
His birth
1908 C2056 Norman Ivan GORDON
Father-
Mother Catherine Eveline GORDON
His death
1915 C2721 Norman Ivan GORDON
William John GORDON & Evelyn Catherine MCINTYRE
Sue
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Thanks so much, Sue. This is all very interesting. Being such a small town when I saw that the son, William Gordon married a McIntyre and his father had also married a McIntyre as his second wife, I suspected that this was more than coincidence. The pair weren't related so I guess there was no reason why they shouldn't marry
Sad about young Norman Ivan Gordon.
It seems that the other son, Alexander Gordon didn't marry and probably had no children so I am trying to focus on the son who you mentioned, William (John) Gordon who married Evelyn Catherine McIntyre. I would like to discover if they had any children and I wasn't able to find any in spite of extensive searches on the census records. It appears that William and Evelyn moved to the Toowoomba district (probably selling the Croxdale farm owned by their parents) when their father died in 1914. I would say that the brother, Peter Roderick Gordon followed them here from Charleville which is where he most likely met Daisy Smith/Schloss.
Perhaps you may help me further, Sue? In the past I have been able to search within a given time frame for children of two parents, but the Qld BDM seems to prevent me doing this now. When I typed in William Gordon and Evelyn or Catherine as parents within dates of 1908 to 1916, the tool wasn't allowing me to leave the child's name blank, reverting each time to the template name of Jennifer, very frustrating! I actually called Qld BDM and the girl suggested that I give feedback which I have. I've tried searching in ancestry.com but haven't been able to find any children for William and Evelyn. Would you be able to do a search for me (however you did this search)? Thanks again for what you have done. It will be appreciated by Peter's granddaughter! Deb
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Even though you can always see the sample name 'Jennifer' when you leave the box blank it does not affect your search. The only birth that I can see up to today's date 1917 is the one for Norman Ivan that has already been posted.
Debra :)
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trying to focus on the son who you mentioned, William (John) Gordon who married Evelyn Catherine Gordon. I would like to discover if they had any children and I wasn't able to find any in spite of extensive searches on the census records. It appears that William and Evelyn moved to the Toowoomba district (probably selling the Croxdale farm owned by their parents) when their father died in 1914.
A couple of points in this statement need your attention ;D
Australia has no useful census records.
We do have online electoral rolls which is perhaps what you have been viewing.
There is no evidence that Murdoch was the father of Catherine/Eveline (Evelyn Catherine).
The married couple EDIT (William and Eveline/Evelyn) were step siblings, not half siblings.
Sue
ADDING
Also be mindful that the child Norman Ivan was ex-nuptial.
He was probably registered in the the name GORDON because Catherine McINTYRE ( the mother of Evelyn) was married to Murdoch GORDON and possibly Evelyn used that surname in her every day life to fit with the rest of the family.
In other words, the surname GORDON attached to Norman Ivan is not necessarily because William John GORDON was his father.
The child's registration at death does show William John GORDON as father, but again, it may or may not be the fact.
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Headstone photo William and Eveline
http://www.tr.qld.gov.au/facilities-recreation/cemeteries/deceased-search/burial/43129
Sue
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Thank you, Sue and Debra! Thanks for the update, Debra on the tool. For some reason it wasn't working on my computer and it was possibly more a case of my computer being slow and not loading and then going into a default statement saying that there were no matches. I did get some results when I used the letter plus asterisk instead of the name, so for future reference will do this as well.
Sorry, Sue I did make a mistake with Evelyn Catherine's name; it was of course McIntyre, a typo on my behalf, sorry for wasting your time there. It almost seems that there were no children born to Murdoch and Catherine's children apart from Peter Roderick's twin boys which is very odd as he has an epitaph on his grave stone that states "uncle" which infers that he did have a niece or nephew. Maybe the birth(s) was/were not registered. Strange! Regards, Deb :)
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PS and thank you, Sue, I will in future refer to these records as Electoral Roll records rather than census records. My error again! Deb
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Thank you, Sue and Debra! Thanks for the update, Debra on the tool. For some reason it wasn't working on my computer and it was possibly more a case of my computer being slow and not loading and then going into a default statement saying that there were no matches. I did get some results when I used the letter plus asterisk instead of the name, so for future reference will do this as well.
Sorry, Sue I did make a mistake with Evelyn Catherine's name; it was of course McIntyre, a typo on my behalf, sorry for wasting your time there. It almost seems that there were no children born to Murdoch and Catherine's children apart from Peter Roderick's twin boys which is very odd as he has an epitaph on his grave stone that states "uncle" which infers that he did have a niece or nephew. Maybe the birth(s) was/were not registered. Strange! Regards, Deb :)
Do you mean Roderick GORDON MI?
A man may be an uncle to his wife's siblings children.
Sue
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It seems that the other son, Alexander Gordon didn't marry and probably had no children
Marriage
1921 C919 Sarah KELLY
Alexander GORDON
Death
1966 C3633 Alexander GORDON
Parents Murdoch GORDON Kate MACGREGOR
Burial MI, Charleville
GORDON,Alexander,
Died 28.04.1966,
Aged 83 yrs ,
Our father.
With wife Sarah GORDON
Sue
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Thank you, Sue! I've been away for several days (called away to babysit grandchildren). Thank you so much for this information. Re Peter Roderick's uncle status with reference to his wife's siblings' children, Peter Roderick Gordon never married (to my knowledge) and his partner's children, now deceased, were unaware of his paternity and his partner's siblings had no contact with him. I am still assuming that he was "uncle" to his brother's children. I am still hoping to find a child/ren to Alexander and Sarah. Thanks for that marriage information. I will follow that up. I will be away yet again from email contact but will take my research further on Tuesday. Thank you again for your much valued assistance. Deb :)
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Hi Deb,
As Peter Roderick GORDON is the direct line of descent for your friend, she really needs to purchase his QLD death certificate.
How to is on the website. It seems an inexpensive step when this link is important to the searcher.
Depending on the knowledge and honesty of the informant, the following information may be revealed.
Name
Date
Death place
Age
Occupation
Cause of death
Parents' names
Spouse names
Marriage details
Chns names
No of chn
Birthplace
Sue
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Thank you, Sue. This is good advice. I also suggested that he buy his parents' marriage certificate.
Thank you for your help. Regards, Deb :)