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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Slocers on Thursday 23 November 17 21:53 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I've left family research for a while as this mystery is ruining my love for ancestry! I cannot get past it! Would love some help and ideas.
My great grandmother, Annie Lee was born 12 Jun 1909 which is confirmed by her step-fathers military record in 1916. I have been unable to locate her birth record. She died as Anne Lee-Frost in 2000, Faversham Kent.
Her step-father is Ernest Lee b. 1888 in Eastbourne. I found Annie's mothers name Elizabeth Lee from the marriage certificate. Elizabeth died 1940 in Faversham age 57 which puts her year of birth at 1883. They married in Herne Bay in 1910. On the military record, she is known as Betsy. On the marriage certificate it states Elizabeth's father is James Lee and was an Agricultural Laborer. Other than what was on the marriage certificate, I can't find any records of James. Elizabeth is on the 1939 census with Ernest in Faversham.
When Elizabeth and Ernest married, they both had children. Elizabeth had Annie and Ernest had Eddie. I have Eddie's birth certificate, his mother was Sabina Scamp and he was born in 1906 in Herne Bay. I presumed Annie was born a Lee like her mother but I haven't found a birth record for her.
Annie married Abram Elijah Lee-Frost in 1926 in Sittingbourne Kent. Abram was born 1903 in Kent. Abram comes from a long line of Romany gypsies as does Ernest. It wouldn't surprise me if Annie did as well.
I am giving you all the information I have in case one detail pieces the whole thing together. The only record I have of them altogether is Ernest's military record where he lists them as dependents.
I would love to find Annie's birth record. I would love to be able to trace her family history but I find even knowing Elizabeth and James I have been unable to find anything.
Any help greatly appreciated.
M
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Sabina Scamp appears in the 1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census in
Kent her birth Year 1892 age 9 years in the registration district of Bridge.
No results for Sabina Lee in 1911.
Have you viewed this census result?
IGI
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Asabina~%20%2Bsurname%3Ascamp~
It is just that the Sabina Scamp here her father was born in Challok, Kent in 1867 which I see you had a different date and birth place for?
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Sabina Scamp appears in the 1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census in
Kent her birth Year 1892 age 9 years in the registration district of Bridge.
No results for Sabina Lee in 1911.
Have you viewed this census result?
IGI
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Asabina~%20%2Bsurname%3Ascamp~
It is just that the Sabina Scamp here her father was born in Challok, Kent in 1867
Yes thanks, not too interested in Sabina as she isn't blood related. More interested in Elizabeth and Annie.
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Don't rule out the Scamp connection - by following that family both backwards and forwards you may find the people you are looking for nearby on a Census or baptising children at the same church.
I've been looking at the information you have given and looking at all the data that might tell us more about the family but haven't come up with what I was hoping:
You say that "Elizabeth is on the 1939 census with Ernest in Faversham." - are these the Ernest Lee dob 16 Mar 88 and Elizabeth Lee dob 14 Dec 83 in a tent at Ulcombe, Maidstone in Hollingbourne RD in 1939?
There is a second tent with a Barrett family - look at these as there may be some relationship between a member of the Barretts and Elizabeth or Ernest.
"Annie married Abram Elijah Lee-Frost in 1926 in Sittingbourne Kent" so they should both be on the 1939 register - ah I've just found them as Frost:
10 Newbridge Avenue , Sittingbourne and Milton U.D., Kent, England
Abram 26 Feb 1904 - not 1903!
Annie 12 June 1909
William L 19 Sep 1927
Betty L 22 Dec 1928
Mary AL 28 Jan 1931 becomes Ditchburn
Abram is a Labourer at the cement works
"Abram was born 1903 in Kent" - where do you have this information from as his yob appears to be 1904:
1911 19 Crown Quay Sittingbourne, Sittingbourne, Kent, England
William Frost 1886 born Kent a labourer
Mary Ann his wife 1887
Abraham 1904 born Sittingbourne
Lennie (female) 1906
Levender (female) 1909
Abraham EL Frost dies 3rd Q 1965 Sittingbourne reg dist age 61 yob 1904
"On the marriage certificate it states Elizabeth's father is James Lee and was an Agricultural Laborer." - information about parentage on marriage certificates is not always correct - if one of the parties didn't know who their father was they would sometimes invent a father.
"Annie Lee was born 12 Jun 1909" - We need to find Annie and her mother and/or father in 1911 or on some other document.
If Ernest Lee married Elizabeth Lee in Herne Bay in 1910 where are they when the 1911 census was taken? Their marriage is June Q 1910 Blean Reg Dist. but I can't find them in 1911 so far.
FreeBMD shows Annie Lee married Abram Frost Sept Q 1926 Milton Reg Dist and there's a birth of an Abram A Lee Frost 3rd Q 1936 Milton Reg Dist, mothers name Lee.
Have you tried looking for any of these people in newspapers?
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As your post is likely to be deleted here is a link to the 1911 census:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW63-HWR
William FROST may be the father of Laney and Leander, but Abraham/Abram's father was named as a LEE.
LEE, ABRAHAM ELIJAH
Mother's maiden surname: KING
GRO Reference: 1904 M Quarter in MILTON Volume 02A Page 1029
KING, LANEY
No mother's maiden surname
GRO Reference: 1906 J Quarter in MILTON Volume 02A Page 1034
KING, LEANDA
No mother's maiden surname
GRO Reference: 1909 M Quarter in HAILSHAM Volume 02B Page 78
What was the father's name and occupation on the birth cert? Abram and Annie may have had a family connection prior to marriage.
Debra :D
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As there isn't a birth registration so far for Annie Lee born 12th June 1909 you should look for a baptism.
Many County family history societies offer a (paid) lookup service of their transcriptions of parish registers so it would be worth seeing if Kent or North West Kent do this.
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Hi all
I have a Augustus Lee as an ancestor he was born about 1799 in Kent England and was transported to Australia in 1819 I would love to find out more about his family and if he is a Romany person I cannot seem to find out who his parents were.
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Baptism: St Luke Parish Register Charlton (Greenwich) Kent
12 Apr 1798 . Augustus Lee . Female
Parents: William and Fiercy Lee
Notes: Entry started: Augustus, Daughter of...
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Hi Talacharn
My Augustus Lee is a male born Kent about 1799 -1877 in Rockhampton Qld Australia. Unfortunatley his death certificate was filled out wrong and his parents names are actually him and his wife's names Baring was the ship he sailed on and was convicted 23/10/1818 at Kent and was sent to N S W Australia Can I post documents or no
Thankyou
Kym
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Nothing major to add, other than, i always look at the witnesses on a marriage cert, they tend to be much more connected to the married couple than family and can be a good indicator if any name changes or where they may all travelling in a census Kushti bok!
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I have found a birth record that I believe may be that of your great-grandmother Annie.
I was intrigued by the information you provided and I wondered what happened to Eddie’s mother, Sabina Scamp, as I could not find a death record for her.
In my experience of researching my own traveller ancestors, I found they sometimes had a tendency to use different names, so I began to wonder if Sabina Scamp and Elizabeth Lee were actually the same person.
With this in mind, I searched Kent birth records of the period using the surname Scamp and found:
Mary Ann Scamp born 26th July 1908 in Blean, Kent. The mother is Sabina Scamp, a hawker. No father is listed but this is not surprising as her parents were not legally married at the time of her birth (also very common amongst travellers of the period). I believe this also points to Annie and Eddie being full siblings, not step siblings.
I have tried to attach the pdf for you to view. I hope this helps.