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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: 1banshee on Wednesday 29 November 17 12:42 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I have attached a photo of my great granddads 1914-15 star? medal - on the back is a number - what does the number mean - the reason I ask is that I presumed it was his rank and number but when searching for his military records I keep coming across the same name, John Doran, but there is a different number from the one on the medal - the number on the record is the regimental number? So could someone confirm what the number on the medal represents.
Many thanks
Michelle
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He served first in the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers with the number shown 11800 on his 1914-15 Star (for Gallipoli in August 1915) with 6th Battalion. He was later (after Jan 1917) transferred to the Labour Corps where he had the number 336803.
MaxD
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Oh wow, thank you MaxD - I knew about the Inniskilling Fusiliers however nothing about the labour corps and I cannot find his military service records anywhere - so far I've found his Dad and brother but not him! I shall see if I can make more progress with the later number. Thank you so much :)
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I'm living in hope that there may be a photo of him knocking about somewhere - they were very thin on the ground and my Gran when she moved from Glasgow to Macclesfield had one photo - which she gave to a four year old girl, (me), along with other photos, to play with - guess who ripped poor John Doran into pieces? :( Years later I am the one in the family who is hell bent on doing the family tree and would so love to see one photo of him!
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Apart from his medal records I'm afraid it looks as if his service record is among the ones lost in the bombing in the second war.
MaxD
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I found him on Forces War Records.... but you have to pay to view full record
And there is a message if you toggle the cursor " this record belongs to a record exclusive to Forces war records"
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/namesearch/?FirstName=John&Surname=Doran&RecordType=Ww1&RecordDateStartYear=1914&RecordDateEndYear=1920
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/records/12070716/sergeant-j-doran-british-army-royal-inniskilling-fusiliers/
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/records/7610745/sergeant-john-doran-royal-inniskilling-fusiliers/
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I am sceptical and would not, myself, pay to see it. Those service records that survived the second war are the property of the National Archives who have out sourced them to Ancestry and Findmypast- they aren't there. Topic here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=764733.0
You might like to ask if someone who has a sub to that site will look for you.
MaxD
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Thanks again for the replies - I had a look at the link and found two records with some information on them that could join a few dots on my family tree branches - I ended up joining for a month - the records did confirm that he had a bad leg - ( my nan always said how he had a slight limp from the war), and it said it was a shell injury - however - it lists him as being in the 1st battalion of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers lol - whereby its always been stated he was in the 6th battalion - oh well, I have a month now to scoop out other records :) Massive thanks to both of you for helping me out :)
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Out of curiosity - what sort of record was it? They had him as a sergeant which his medal records don't do and his medal record also confirms 6th Battalion and the date to Gallipoli agrees with that.
MaxD
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Belfast News-Letter, Friday 8 October 1915
British Casualties
Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
Wounded
6th Battalion
Doran, 11800, Sergt. J.
Some of those MH 106 records are now on findmypast, with images. But no sign of John's at the moment.
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In this case the much maligned Forces War Records do have a record that has not yet made it to Ancestry or FindMyPast although presumably the Belfast Telegraph and or the casualty lists can be seen on other sites (Genealogist perhaps?).
The 6th Battalion left Gallipoli on 30 September 1915 and went to the Salonika front but as casualty lists took time to get to the publication stage, the wounding was most likely at Gallipoli. The war diary is on Ancestry although soldier casualties are not named.
MaxD
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Max, the newspaper is on findmypast/BNA. It's just something extra I threw in.
I am not tempted to go on Forces War Records!
But those records from MH106 are obviously of interest. The (free) index can be searched separately on that site, so at least we know what sort of record it is
John
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Doh - just needed to hit the button that says Irish Newspapers which I omitted to do! So not "exclusive to Forces war records" except in the sense that it is indexed. Thanks John.
MaxD
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Hi MaxD,
Well it threw me when I saw Corporal on the medal as on his marriage cert it has him down as Sergeant 6th battalion, Roy Innis. Fus. However, there were two records; the first has him down as Sergeant in 1st Battalion and it is basically outlining that he had received an injury to his leg, (shell) and that he was moved from one medical area to a clearing hospital the following day ~ The second record, two months later, states he is still a Sergeant however in the 6th Battalion and that he was listed as wounded on the casualty list issued by the war office ~ "This man was entitled to wear a "Wound Stripe" as authorised under Army Order 204 of 6th July 1916. The terms of this award being met by their naming in this list" - so I'm not entirely sure what that means however or really what the actual records are, (they are typed up rather than a photocopy or original) lol ~ this was between Aug 8 and October 10 1915. however I do recall on his sons birth certificate, he had a different surname, (his mother's) as when he was born, 1916, his father was away on active duty and parents were due to be married on his return so there must be some more details somewhere - or not, if records included in the bombing :(
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Hi Jonw65,
Sorry I missed your posts, (didn't click on 2nd page button),
Thank you for the info from FindMyPast - I am subscribed to both Ancestry and FindMyPast...and now Forces Records lol - but I shall definitely be taking a look now at the records that are mentioned on Forces Records - MH106/217 - thanks for all your replies and pointing me in the right direction :)
Michelle
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Some bits can be explained. He was in all probability an acting sergeant ie his substantive rank (which went on the medal card) was Corporal but he was on the first rung of promotion to sergeant. The "acting" tended only to be used in official army paperwork so on a marriage cert, sergeant would normally appear, he would be wearing the stripes.
A wound stripe would be authorised (it wasn't an "award" but a dress distinction) in accordance with blah blah (the wording you quote) for a wound caused by hostile action that had to be treated away from his immediate unit.
It is likely that the document comes from some semi-official history or local report (his record would use the present tense for the entitlement).
As to the 1st Battalion/6th Battalion - perhaps simply a c**k up in his docs? His 1914-15 Star roll entry only says 6th Battalion, the start date you quote is the date on his medal card for arrival on Gallipoli which is the 6th Battalion landing date. The 1st had been there since April. Nothing in either war diary. Mystery.
MaxD
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Thank you so much MaxD, for taking the time out to summarise things - it is invaluable to me - I was tasked with the family tree a decade back and it's the Doran side I'm struggling with - I was scathingly called out for proving that the John Doran in these docs was not actually Irish, (although both parents were); but was born and bred in Glasgow - so, the only man with these medals in his possession, then said I must have my facts wrong, (despite producing his Birth, marriage and death certs), and that something didn't tie up with the dates on his military records! Lol - It IS the same bloke and I am happy with what I've learned over the last couple of days, thank you once again :)
Michelle
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Sorry, one more thing....
I think my Uncle was trying to say that he couldn't have been in the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers if he was born in Glasgow....is that true? - I know he was definitely born in Glasgow to Irish parents....
Regards
Michelle
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There was/is no rule that said/says a man had/has to be born in Ireland to be able to join an "Irish" regiment or indeed Scotland to join a Scottish regiment etc. The medals you showed at the beginning clearly belonged to someone who was in the Inniskillings, the inscription and the service numbers prove that. Can't comment on the non-military evidence really but it looks to me as if you have your man sewn up. Oh, and at that time before Irish independence in 1922, they were all British anyway. Your man was a volunteer who, generally, could say what regiment he wanted to join and having Irish parents obviously opted for the Skins.
MaxD
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HAH - As I thought! Thank you for clarifying that! I'm on the right track - now I shall leave you in peace ;) Cheers for all your help :)