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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Kiwi Carol on Sunday 03 December 17 02:44 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for the birth and family of Susanna Maria BARRETT. It is thought her birth year was 1847 Oxford. She married James William CLARK OND 1875 in Headington Oxfordshire - father maybe W A Barrett.
One son was William Henry born 10 July 1876 Wraysbury Eton and it is thought that a twin was born at the same time but died. They departed for NZ sometime before the 1881 census.
I have searched Family Search, Ancestry, Findmypast index, FreeBMD and Freecen but to no avail.
Thanks if you can help.
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Susannah Maria Barrett m James Richard Clark, 1875, Headington, Oxfordshire.
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Hi Carol,
Do you have their marriage certificate? As stated by Solidrock it shows James as James Richard.
I can't find Sussanah Maria prior to the marriage but there is a Sussanah Maria Tyler marrying a Charles Barrett in Lambeth in 1868, is there any chance that she was a widow when marrying James?
Jo :)
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Working on the assumption that neither bride nor groom were necessarily resident in Headington, there is a possible on previous censuses: 1861 Susan BARRET age 15 with grandparents John and Lucy Osman in Egham, Berks. Unfortunately, this family doesn't have Susan's father with them! Egham is very near Eton.
However, as I can't find a transcript of the full marriage record online it is impossible to be certain - I think the only way to be sure is to get a copy of the marriage record from GRO to find out Susannah's father's name and occupation.
All the best
Philip
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Not likely that she was widowed, the GRO registration for William Henry Clark, 1876 in Eton, gives mothers maiden name as Barrett, another birth registered in 1879 in Eton for Winifred Hilda Clark, MMN Barrett.
Jo :)
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Do you have her NZ Death Cert?
1901/6956 Clark Susan Maria 54Y
It should contain the info you require :)
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Christenings;
SUSANNAH MARIA Barret/t
20 March 1842 Wappenham, Northampton, to WILLIAM/ANNE
6 March 1850 St Hilda, South Shields, Durham to JAMES/SUSANNAH
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SUSANNAH MARY* Barritt 30 October 1845, Chapel en le Frith, Derbyshire to WILLIAM/ANN
A Tree has this last one as the Susannah that married James Clark.
I have no idea if it is correct. Unless they have the M/C to confirm her Fathers name/occp
1861/1871 that Family is in Lancashire, William is a Toll Collector born c 1816 Cockyard, Derbyshire.
She is just Susannah M on 1861/1871 Census with her Parents.
1881 William/Ann are back in Derbyshire and William is now a Innkeeper.
1891 William is a Widower, Publican, Son John is with him.
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1861 in Lancs we have;
William Barratt 45 Toll Collector
Ann Barratt 40
Susannah Barratt 15
John Edward Barratt 9
Strangely Susannah is not at Home in 1851 Census in Derbyshire;
William Barratt 32 Toll Collector
Ann Barratt 27
John A Barratt 7 mths
Possible Birth Reg;
BARRATT, JOHN EDWARD, Mothers mn TURNER***
GRO Reference: 1850 D Quarter in CHAPEL EN LE FRITH Volume 19 Page 450
OK, Susannah Mary is NOT yours as Trees have stated.
She married John BARKER 1873 Lancashire (FreeBMD) and 1881 her Brother is with her and Family.
John Barker, 32
Susanah M. Barker, 33, Wife, born Chapel Le Frith, Derbyshire
Edith G. G. Barker, 5
John E. Barratt, 30, Brother in Law, born Chapel Le Frith, Derbyshire
Annetta Barker
So to summarise as Solidrock/ Jo have said the 1875 M/C is a must to buy to establish her Fathers name/occp.
Also as I am from NZ I know how good Death Certs can be for info on Parents etc.
Trish :)
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May be worth noting for later after Certs are purchased;
1851 Census
Little Brickhill, Buckinghamshire
James Barratt, 42, Sawyer
Mary Barratt, 43
Elizabeth Barratt,18
Richard Barratt, 13
Marian Barratt, 9
Susannah Barratt, 5*****
Edward Barratt, 4
Lucy Barratt, 2
Children all born Little Brickhall, Bucks
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Banns for the marriage have James of Wraysbury & Susanna of the parish of Forest Hill, Oxfordshire
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There is no evidence of a live birth at the same time as William Henry in 1876.
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1861 Census has a James R Clark born c 1852 Wyrawisbury, Buckinghamshire.
Living with his parents Richard/Eliza.
Still with them in 1871 Census.
That is why I posted the info on the Buckinghamshire Susanna just in case they met there.
EDIT just realised I had 1871 Census, it should have been 1851 and have corrected it :-[
As I said there are so many Susan/Susannah Barret/ts around including one born c 1843 Dunstew, Oxfordshire
The M/C is a must to get.
Trish :)
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Maybe this family?
Other Barretts getting married at Forest Hill around that time are
Anne Elizabeth Barrett in 1874 and Louisa Martha Barrett in 1876.
Baptised at Wytham with parents William (a gamekeeper) and Ann
Anne Elizabeth b1839
Louisa Martha b1848
On the 1851 census, they also have a sister Susanna, plus other siblings.
Mother's maiden name appears to be Bowell, but it looks like the older children weren't registered.
ADDED This is the Susanna that Trish mentioned earlier. Baptised 1842 in Wappenham. Her sister's were baptised in Wytham
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jomcd967 found birth entries proving Susannah's maiden name was Barrett, which eliminates the possibility that she was a widow. We could continue digging into potential baptisms and census entries for Susannah BARRETT, but it wouldn't really prove that we have found the right one. I wondered where the couple might have met, which is why I looked around the county where they lived after they married, but that is only supposition.
Either the marriage certificate or the NZ death cert are essential to prove Susannah's parentage.
I had a quick look on the NZ register - there are Susannahs but the death ages don't fit. There is one which might be her:
1901/6956 CLARK Susan Maria age 54
https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/
Philip
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There is no evidence of a live birth at the same time as William Henry in 1876.
They also had a daughter
CLARK, WINIFRED HILDA mmn BARRETT
1879 Sept Quarter
ETON, BUCKS Volume 03A Page 514
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Tracing the kids:
William Henry Clark b. 1876 Eton, schoolmaster, d. 1959
Winifred Hilda Clark b. 1879 Eton m. James Bennie 1905 in NZ d. 1963
Percy Newton Clark b. 1882 NZ died WWI (born Waitara according to his Military records)
Dorothy Minnie Clark b. 1885 NZ m. Frederick Rands 1912 in NZ d. 1976
her husband died in 1919: https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19190221.2.81?query=%22Frederick%20Rand%22
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZFL19190313.2.31.4?query=%22Dorothy%20Rands%22
The family were strongly linked to the Methodist church and James Richard Clark became a Methodist preacher:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19280802.2.13?query=%22James%20Richard%20CLark%22
The family were in Kumara when Susan died:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TC19011210.2.22?query=%22J%20R%20Clark%22
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WCT19011210.2.21?query=%22J%20R%20Clark%22
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WCT19011217.2.20?query=%22J%20R%20Clark%22
Unfortunately nothing about her family in England in this, nor any mention of how the family got to NZ... must have been between 1879 (Winifred's birth) and 1882 (Percy's birth)...
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Interesting that there is a William Austen Barrett, tailor, born 1815 Northampton marrying a Charlotte Heath, 1843 in Headington Oxford. Other than his marriage and baptism I can't find him.
Jo :)
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A difficult one and many possibilities!
Hi Kiwi Carol,
Do you have the Death Cert of Susannah?
Are you willing to get the 1875 M/C?
Hi LilyM,
Thanks for that info definitely very possible there is a connection.
Trish :)
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Hi Carol,
Do you have their marriage certificate? As stated by Solidrock it shows James as James Richard.
My mistake - it is James Richard and no we don't have a marriage certificate and i am puzzled as to why I can't find an entry somewhere
I can't find Sussanah Maria prior to the marriage but there is a Susannah Maria Tyler marrying a Charles Barrett in Lambeth in 1868, is there any chance that she was a widow when marrying James? Well that could be possible but we think unlikely...
Jo :)
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Susannah Maria Barrett m James Richard Clark, 1875, Headington, Oxfordshire.
Yes this is correct - I made a mistake; was thinking of her possible father William
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Hi Carol,
You can order the marriage certificate for £6 for a PDFs copy, here.. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
The GRO reference is:
Name:'Susannah Maria Barrett
District: Headington
Year: 1875
Volume: 3A
Page: 1101
This should provide you with her fathers name and occupation, her age and address at time of marriage as well as witness names.
Jo :)
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Hi Carol,
You can order the marriage certificate for £6 for a PDFs copy, here.. https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
PDF copies are only available for birth & death
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
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Thank you all for your replies and helpful suggestions. Sorry for the late reply - I was away for the weekend.
One of the problems we have in NZ is knowing about the counties - I have no idea what is where when looking at records. The family have always been in Eton in Buckinghamshire; James Richards father was Richard Samuel and I have traced him thru the censuses but Susannah has been difficult altho it is thought she came from Oxfordshire, b 1847 and father could be W A.
James Richards b 1852 Wraysbury and family information suggests he and Susanna were married in Forest Hill Oxford. I found the Headington entry and I'm sure that's it.
but what about William Henry's twin. I could find no birth or death in July 1876.
OK I've realised that several more replies have come in - will need to digest the information! Thank you all. Marriage certificate needed it seems. Carol
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Let us know when you get the Marriage Cert and we can all then help you more.
Cheers,
Trish (born Hamilton NZ)
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Certificate ordered!! What a process - had to register then change emails...
Will just have to wait for its arrival.
In reply to Susanna's death (she was Susan in NZ) 1901 is correct. And the NZ info is also correct.
I couldn't find a live birth or a death for the same time as William Henry. The family think the twin? was female.Now what happened if the baby was born and then died almost immediately or was born dead? Burial? Wouldn't have been baptised...
More questions!! Really appreciate the help from everyone - thank you very much.
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The certificate has arrived! Father William Barrett Keeper; Susanna was 32 while James was 24 quite a difference. Both signed the certificate although the writing looks the same as the Vicar's - Walter Neame but the witnesses - George Rowell, Frances Eleanor Barrett and Minnie E Clark, so we have Susanna's sister. 8)
This fits with LilyM's info earlier. Yay now for some more checking.
Thanks everyone.
Carol
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Trying to redeem myself;
WILLIAM Barrett
birth: 6 January 1811 Cumnor, Berkshire
christening: 16 January 1811 Cumnor
Parents JOSEPH/SUSANNAH
Sibling;
JOSEPH christened 30 December 1808
1851 Census Joseph c 1809 is a Gamekeeper in Sandford, Oxfordshire
1841 Census
Cumner, Berkshire
Joseph Barrett, 75, Ind
Susannah Barrett, 63
Both seem to not be born in Berkshire.
Death Regs GRO Index;
BARRETT, SUSANNA, age 63****
GRO Reference: 1843 M Quarter in ABINGDON UNION Volume 06 Page 93
BARRETT, JOSEPH, age 78 *****
GRO Reference: 1845 J Quarter in ABINGDON UNION Volume 06 Page 89
So born c 1780 and 1767
F/S has a Marriage ;
26 December 1808, St Mary's, Beaminster, Dorset
Joseph BARRETT to Susannah BRAGG
Joseph is single.
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I’m so pleased you sent for the marriage certificate, so could confirm this family.
The birth registrations for the children born 1844 onwards, show the mother’s maiden name as Bowell.
There’s a marriage Anne Bowell to William Barrett 3/09/1834 in Oxford. I can’t see an image for this.
I wonder if the witness, George Rowell, should be Bowell. It’s a pity the GRO don’t send copies of the original certificates, rather than their own (often incorrect) transcriptions.
ADDED Ancestry have the image for the 1834 marriage
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I spent the morning on Ancestry at the library yesterday and managed to find Susannah's birth - baptised 20 Mar 1842 at Wappingham Nothamptonshire - father William Mother Anne. Also found census records by working through Frances Eleanor and I think I now have all the family.
Thanks to help above I have ascertained that William was born 6 Jan 1811 bapt 16 Jan in Cumnor Berkshire; father Joseph and mother Susannah. i can now work on that. In 1881 William was living in Forest Hill Village with Anne and a grand- daughter Emily Barrett 16
My Susannah Maria died in NZ in 1901
Now need to check the Rowell connection. I'm sure it is Rowell - I can't see how the Vicar could mis -hear Rowell/Bowell
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Can you please help with a related question to Susannah Barrett?
In the 1861 census she is with James and Jane Wortley in Mortlake Surrey with a large family and lots of servants/tutor/governess.Jane was the daughter of Lord Wenlock so does she have a title like Lady or the Honourable... I've checked out both families and can't find a title for her. James was a Privy Counsellor and Queen's Counsel but wasn't a peer as far as i can tell. Help please!
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Stuart-Wortley
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Stuart-Wortley_(Conservative_politician)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Thompson,_1st_Baron_Wenlock
So she was specifically the daughter of a Baron, and therefore may have had the courtesy title "The Honorable".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtesy_titles_in_the_United_Kingdom
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/65053b6f-2be8-4819-a835-64ada90a4bbf
- example here, described as letters from James to "Lord and Lady Wenlock, parents of the Hon. Jane Lawley, whom he was to marry in 1846"
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lh2/ - and this has their marriage reported with him as "The Right Hon." and her as "The Hon."
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4594244/4594246/3/
- at death, reported as "The Hon. Mrs. Stuart Wortley", aka "Aunt Jane" ;)
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:)Thank you very much jorose. Sometimes just knowing where to look... Google didn't have Jane listed as the Honourable and no titles were on the census so i wasn't sure. I would presume that Susanna as the school room maid, would have called her Ma'am or My lady...??? That's if she ever saw her! Shades of Upstairs downstairs...
Thanks again
Carol
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1861 in Lancs we have;
William Barratt 45 Toll Collector
Ann Barratt 40
Susannah Barratt 15
John Edward Barratt 9
Strangely Susannah is not at Home in 1851 Census in Derbyshire;
William Barratt 32 Toll Collector
Ann Barratt 27
John A Barratt 7 mths
Possible Birth Reg;
BARRATT, JOHN EDWARD, Mothers mn TURNER***
GRO Reference: 1850 D Quarter in CHAPEL EN LE FRITH Volume 19 Page 450
OK, Susannah Mary is NOT yours as Trees have stated.
She married John BARKER 1873 Lancashire (FreeBMD) and 1881 her Brother is with her and Family.
John Barker, 32
Susanah M. Barker, 33, Wife, born Chapel Le Frith, Derbyshire
Edith G. G. Barker, 5
John E. Barratt, 30, Brother in Law, born Chapel Le Frith, Derbyshire
Annetta Barker
So to summarise as Solidrock/ Jo have said the 1875 M/C is a must to buy to establish her Fathers name/occp.
Also as I am from NZ I know how good Death Certs can be for info on Parents etc.
Trish :) I note your interest in my family barratt chapel en le frith
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Your welcome I was just trying to help :)
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This information is correct: I was doing research for my best friend.
Susannah is buried in the Kumara cemetery on the West Coast of NZ where they were living. There are references to the funeral on Papers' Past.
Kiwi Carol
Tracing the kids:
William Henry Clark b. 1876 Eton, schoolmaster, d. 1959
Winifred Hilda Clark b. 1879 Eton m. James Bennie 1905 in NZ d. 1963
Percy Newton Clark b. 1882 NZ died WWI (born Waitara according to his Military records)
Dorothy Minnie Clark b. 1885 NZ m. Frederick Rands 1912 in NZ d. 1976
her husband died in 1919: https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19190221.2.81?query=%22Frederick%20Rand%22
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZFL19190313.2.31.4?query=%22Dorothy%20Rands%22
The family were strongly linked to the Methodist church and James Richard Clark became a Methodist preacher:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19280802.2.13?query=%22James%20Richard%20CLark%22
The family were in Kumara when Susan died:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TC19011210.2.22?query=%22J%20R%20Clark%22
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WCT19011210.2.21?query=%22J%20R%20Clark%22
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WCT19011217.2.20?query=%22J%20R%20Clark%22
Unfortunately nothing about her family in England in this, nor any mention of how the family got to NZ... must have been between 1879 (Winifred's birth) and 1882 (Percy's birth)...