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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: Gordon Hughes on Monday 04 December 17 16:36 GMT (UK)
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Hi, unfortunately the Blackwell Index CD is out of stock at CLWYDFHS so I was wondering if some kind person has a copy and could do a lookup for me ?
I'm researching my g-grandfather Evan Hughes, who was born in 1846 in Llansantffraid Glyn Ceiriog, an illegitimate son to an Agnes Hughes who herself was born in 1818. On the 17th February 1851 Agnes married a Price Phillips at the Penybryn Baptist Chapel so I'm hoping that Evan and Agnes were both baptised there and the index could yield more information possibly about Evan's father, and also Agnes' father.
Alternative, if anyone has a copy of the CD I would be more than happy to make a reasonable offer for a copy.
Many thanks, Gordon Hughes.
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Hi cannot help with baptism etc, but I see Price aged 25 and Agnes Phillips 33 were as you say in Llansaintfraid Glyn Ceirog in 1851 census, noted that no Evan Hughes with them c aged 4, he looks to be with a David Hughes 53 Unmarried and Elizabeth Williams 67 Widow/Sister both born Llangollen at 67, Mill, Llansaintfraid Glyn Ceirog?
Census ref HO107/2509/610/13
Keyboard86
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Hi, yes I've seen that entry in the 1851 census. If you look at the original image it says that David Hughes is the grandfather of Evan Hughes, in which case it seems a bit strange that he is also unmarried. It would be good to confirm that Agnes Hughes' father was indeed a David Hughes. Also, sometimes in baptism records, I've seen additional comments about the child or its parents, which is why I'm keen to get hold of them.
Many thanks, Gordon.
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:) Thanks for telling me you already had the 1851 census for Evan, glad I looked it up!
Who did Elizabeth Hughes marry to become a Williams, I try all routes if unable to assist in other ways?!
Keyboard86
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I don't know - this is all pre-1841 so the only way to find out is through parish records. I've got the parish transcripts for Llansantffraidd baptisms, marriages and burials, but they only go up to 1814 and they don't cover non-conformist ceremonies. Also, as you might guess, there are a number of Elizabeth Hughes who married a Williams so it's needle-in-a-haystack territory. There is a ray of hope in that Agnes isn't that common a name - there are no Agnes Hughes in the parish transcripts I have - so I think the clues would be in the Blackwell Index if anywhere.
Gordon.
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Hi do you have the 1841 census for Agnes, as she looks to be the Agnes HUGHS 20 in large household in Lebyollen Abbot, Bridge Street, Llangollen
Census ref HO107/1400/ 12/5 / 5
Possibly Elizabeth Hughes married an older man, as also in Llangollen we have William Williams 75 Elizabeth 55 and David Hughes 40
Census ref HO107/1400/ 1/6 / 5
Keyboard86
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Oh now that's interesting. I do have access to the 1841 census on Ancestry but there's nothing for an Agnes Hughes/Hughs there. Where did you find that information ? I do have the CDs for the 1841 census for Denbighshire and Merionethshire so if need be I can search through those.
Thanks, Gordon.
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Hi
If you still need the look up on Blackwell, I'll look for it on mine later this evening.
Gadget
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Oh now that's interesting. I do have access to the 1841 census on Ancestry but there's nothing for an Agnes Hughes/Hughs there. Where did you find that information ? I do have the CDs for the 1841 census for Denbighshire and Merionethshire so if need be I can search through those.
Thanks, Gordon.
:) Looks like from previous post you will get some help later, on Anc**** on that census ref she is Agnes Hughes b 1821 in Llangollen on 1841 Wales census
Keyboard86
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Thanks Gadget, that would be much appreciated.
Gordon
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Hi Gordon
Sorry to say that there is no entry for either Agnes or Evan in the Blackwell index. The coverage is not complete as not ll the records survived.
I've had a look at the RG4 (non-conformist records) but, they aren't listed.
A slight correction to Keyboard's mention of Lebyollen Abbot in reply #5. This would be Llangollen Abbot - one of the urban townships in Llangollen parish. Bridge Street is one of the main streets in Llangollen itself - I went to school there so often walked that street :)
If you obtain the marriage cert for Agnes, you'll get her father's name.
Sorry I couldn't find them in my records.
Gadget
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If you obtain the marriage cert for Agnes, you'll get her father's name.
Agnes's marriage ref - Mar Q, 1851, Corwen vol 27 page 199
Think this is Evan's birth registration:
Dec Q, 1846, Corwen, vol 27 page 148
GRO has a blank for mother's maiden name which implies illegitimate birth. Not sure that getting this will give you any info about paternity.
Gadget
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Thanks Gadget, I appreciate your efforts.
I already have Agnes's marriage certificate but unfortunately it says that her father is 'unknown' !
As you're familiar with Llangollen, I should say that on a separate note i'm trying to trace the descendants of Evan's half-brother Roderick (Agnes' son by her marriage to Price Phillips. Roderick married an Eliza Ellis and they had a daughter Augusta Phillips who in turn married a Thomas Maldwyn Evans. They had a daughter Myfanwy Evans who married a Harry Williams in 1945. So Augusta and Thomas Evans lived in Waverley Villas, Llangollen, and Harry, the son was the son of Charles Edward Williams and Isabella Louisa Spencer who lived at Arnon Cottage, If you're from Llangollen you'll know that Arnon Cottage isn't what one might describe as a 'cottage' !
Myfanwy and Harry Williams were living at Dick Place in Edinburgh in 1973 (apparently one of the most expensive areas in the city). What I'm trying to do is locate descendants of his siblings to find out whether they had any children.
I thought I'd just mention this in case it rings any bells with you.
Kind regards, Gordon.
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Thanks for the info about Evan's birth certificate. I have got that and the father's name is blank. Are you also suggesting that Agnes was illegitimate as well ? If so, then I've probably hit a brick wall.
Gordon.
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Arnon Cottage in Abbey Road - lots of big houses there! I've not been back since 2007. It's changed a lot since I was a school girl. We used to be ushers at the International Eisteddfod :)
I am thinking that Agnes might be illegitimate give the 'unknown' on her marriage cert. Does she say place of birth is Glyn Ceiriog on all the censuses?
There used to be a Ceiriog Valley News - a cousin of mine was involved but I think it's closed down and cousin now lives in Europe.
Gadget
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Agnes died in 1867 and Price Phillips remarried after that (an Elizabeth Jones) so the only census I can find Agnes on is from 1851 which says she was born in Llangollen. I can't find the 1841 census which says she's in Llangollen Abbot, not on Ancestry anyway, but I'm sure you know how bad some of the Ancestry transcriptions are. I'll take a look through the CDs I have for the 1841 census, but as you know the information on the 1841 census is very scant anyway.
Yes, Arnon Cottage is quite a large house. I believe it was once the home of the local MP.
Gordon.
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Hi as suggested if you look for Agnes Hughes 1821 living in Llangollen on 1841 WALES census on Anc**** she is there?
Keyboard86
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hi Keyboard,
Thanks - I've now found it. I had put her year of birth down as 1818, which it is, but of course the ages get rounded in the 1841 census, so it appears as 1821 !
Gordon
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:) Good, why do I think that Elizabeth Hughes who married possibly William Williams has something to do with her?
Even the unmarried David ?
Such a pity no baptism records for her?
Keyboard86
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Gordon,
Have you got access to the pre-1812 Glyn Ceiriog and Llangollen records? They might give some info on David and Elizabeth Hughes/Williams.
I have all the available ones from Clwyd FHS but I'm busy tomorrow so not sure if I can look through them until later in the week.
Gadget
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Folks, here are all the pieces to the jigsaw puzzle:
1818: Llansantffraidd Glyn Ceiriog
Agnes Hughes baptism, May 8th, to William and Elizabeth Hughes.
1841 Census: Cilcochwyn
William Williams, 75, Publican
Elizabeth Williams, 55
David Hughes, 40, pauper
1841 Census: Llangollen Abbott
Agnes Hughes, 20, Bar Maid
1851 Census: Llansantffraidd Glyn Ceiriog
David Hughes, 53, Head, unmarried, pauper
Elizabeth Williams, 67, sister, widowed
Evan Hughes, 4, grandson
(I'm wondering whether Evan is the grandson of Elizabeth rather than David. It would be the easy way out to describe him. Otherwise, how do you capture him as the grandson of the sister of David).
I have the Glyn Ceiriog Parish records up to 1814, but not beyond that. Are the Glyn Ceiriog records available after 1814 ? It would be interesting to see a baptism record for Evan if one is available. I have a subscription to Ancestry and I can search the Denbigh indices on FindMyPast.
Gordon.
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There are two Evan Hughes registered in Corwen district 1845-1849
Dec quarter 1846 no mmn, march quarter 1847, mmn Jones,
Can’t find a baptism
Mike
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Gordon ~
The Glyn Ceiriog booklets don't go on beyond 1814. I did a quick look in FindMyPast baptisms for both Denbighshire and Shropshire, so it will just be info from the birth cert that you have (Dec Q, 1846, Corwen, vol 27 page 148) * got him mixed up with another lookup for a moment, so have modifed !
William Hughes down as a Tailor on Agnes's baptism - Cilcochwyn , which I think is the Dolywern area of Glyn.
Interested that parents are Elizabeth and William Hughes. Could the first William have died and Elizabeth married a Williams :-\ I did look for burials and marriages but not found on a quick scan through.
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Yes the thought of William Hughes dying and Elizabeth remarrying a Williams did occur to me. Also, if Elizabeth was David's sister, then that would mean an Elizabeth Hughes marrying a William Hughes, which of course is perfectly possible. (This family is on my paternal grandfather's side. My paternal grandmother's family were Jones from Bala/Capel Celyn and there are numerous instances of Jones marrying Jones to the point where it's almost impossible to figure out who is who).
Mike: Thanks. Yes, I'm also aware of the two Evan Hughes, but the one I'm tracing is the one born in 1846 to Agnes Hughes.
I suspect a trip to Aberystwyth is called for at some time to look at some microfiche.
Regards, Gordon
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Just one other thing - Agnes Hughes/Phillips died in 1867 and the GRO index has her listed as Agnes Augusta Phillips. I'm not sure where the Augusta came from because it's not in any Census record. Her marriage to Price Phillips was in a Baptist Chapel. Would that require her to go through what I understand is called a 'Believer's Baptism' and if so, would an (additional) baptism name be assigned ?
Just curious !
Gordon
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One of those Doh moments :-[ - I've just realised that Penybryn was a Baptist chapel (didn't read your title properly). As far as I know, Baptists don't baptize infants.
The records are on the IGI (FamilySearch), Batch number C102531 but nothing there for them.
Gadget
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There's an outside possible marriage ~
August 14th 1838, Pontfadog, Llangollen parish
William Williams, widower, ?Yeoman?, Pen-craig, Father - Thomas Williams, labourer
Elizabeth Hughed, widow, Pontfadog, Father - Hugh Hughes, sawyer
They were in Pontfadog (Cilcochwyn) on the 1841 - William a publican then.
Gadget
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Locations of Pencraig and Pontfadog:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l55/
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Ah, now that would fit. Also in the 1841 census with Elizabeth and William is David Hughes, age 40, pauper. If William then died between 1841 and 1851, that would explain the 1851 census with David Hughes, Elizabeth Williams (sister) and Evan Hughes (grandson - but of Elizabeth not David).
There is also a baptism record for Elizabeth Hughes in 1793 in Glyn Ceiriog. The father is Hugh Hughes, a 'millar' [sic]. "Millar" = "sawyer" ???
Diolch yn fawr, Gordon.
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Also baptism - not quite sure - Glyn Ceiriog or Llangollen
10 May 1795 David son of Hugh Hughes, Cilcychwyn/Pontfadog, and Elizabeth
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Now this looks really interesting, so putting it up as a poss ~
Pontfadog/Llangollen
16 Nov 1782
Hugh Hughes of this parish, bachelor, Son of Thomas Hughes, labourer by Mary his wife, aged 27 and Elizabeth Hughes of this parish spinster, Daughter of Edward Hughes, Weaver by Mary his wife, aged 28, were married by Banns.
There were lots of Hughes in the Ceiriog Valley :-X
Gadget
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Thanks again Gadget,
Yes, that looks like a good fit. It seems that a lot of people in that area were called Hughes and were involved in the flannel industry !
Gordon.