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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: telephonist on Wednesday 06 December 17 04:33 GMT (UK)

Title: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: telephonist on Wednesday 06 December 17 04:33 GMT (UK)
Anyone able to decipher this, especially the right hand side written in the column please.
Think I can make out New Zealand?
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 06 December 17 04:55 GMT (UK)
21st March
1886                                                        Male
Hardies Hill                                               about
Bunning...shire              Not Known              40
County                                                         to
Gainville?                                                    45
                                                              years

Column 4 (1)
Asphyxia from
drowning
  (2)
The above is the result of the Magesterial
inquiry held on 23rd March
1886  By? Peter Hardwick (?)  JP

Column 5   
 Not Known

Not Known

In between pages

In third column
spouse   . . . . . .. ?  . . .Service
??  margin
  ? . . . . . . . . . . . . .?
In sixth Column  John  ??
Mary  ??

In eleventh  column
Galway Ireland  . . . .?     (Is this where you are reading New Zealand maybe?  I read New Ireland - but not sure)
 . . . . . . ?  2?* years
In twelfth column
 . . . . ?  ??  36 years
???
In Twelfth column

(List of names and ages but I can't read all of them
George
Mary

Joseph?

Last three are deceased.)
            *  ?!! August 1886


Hmmmm - not at all sure sure, but best I can do.     Or to something on the other side of the page not in the snip. 
The list of family is usually on the far right column of a double page if your entries are like ours. 
And before that columns are usually 'where married, to whom, for how long, and how long in the colony. This Info a bit tricky if they don't know who he was!  ;)


Wiggy :)
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: a chesters on Wednesday 06 December 17 05:17 GMT (UK)
I think if it could be scanned at a higher resolution, it could be easier to see.
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: telephonist on Wednesday 06 December 17 06:41 GMT (UK)
Thanks for your efforts, I will try another scan this evening.
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 06 December 17 06:46 GMT (UK)
I think if it could be scanned at a higher resolution, it could be easier to see.

You are so right AC!!   ;)      I tried enlarging but it just pixilated.

Also, showing right hand page of this entry would also be a great help!  ;)
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Istrice on Wednesday 06 December 17 21:34 GMT (UK)
Hi,
The death occurred in Australia.  Durham Lead was close to the Ballarat goldfields in the State of Victoria.
Istrice
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Wiggy on Thursday 07 December 17 00:25 GMT (UK)
Good - so that means the columns on the right hand side will be as I said - so we need to see that side too please   ;)  Thought the record looked familiar but thought NZ might have the same look about them . . . both being colonies and all!

 - preferably with a better scan.   ;) ;)
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: telephonist on Thursday 07 December 17 07:27 GMT (UK)
The handwriting i wished to see if it could be deciphered is on the death cert thought to be for a Maurice Joseph Morton.
My great g'mother Mary nee McCarthy was in a defacto with this man and had two sons to him (but used her maiden name) or at least one we are sure of.
Mary came to NZ with Maurice George Morton (son) I dont know when but she ended up in Hokitika married a Edward Waters Hall in 1877.
I have been unable to prove where her second son Albert Joseph Morton was born, about 1872 from the date on his death cert in NZ.
I was interested in the writing on the cert as i thought it said New Zealand but maybe not. I think it relates to the two wives Morton did marry and his children.
Morton drowned in 1886 and was identified by clothing worn at time he disappeared.
I have never found any birth cert for Edward Hall born Devon about 1850  according to Marriage 1877 details nor any death for him in NZ.

Thanks for your help .
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Wiggy on Thursday 07 December 17 07:30 GMT (UK)
We still might be able to decipher it is you could give ua a bigger scan  300dpi maybe.   - and the right hand page as that will provide much of the info from which to judge what they are correcting.    ;) ;)
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: majm on Thursday 07 December 17 07:46 GMT (UK)
Hi,

If you downloaded this document from Vic BDM, then likely you downloaded it as a pdf.  If so, perhaps you could consider simply uploading the pdf.  I doubt there's any copyright issues involved.  Then as a pdf each RChatter could zoom in to suit themselves.  :)  And, have the document readily available, and easier to read to help them decipher. 

JM
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: telephonist on Thursday 07 December 17 08:11 GMT (UK)
I have rescanned at 2400dpi. My only question really is "What is the wording next to Galway Ireland" if anyone can tell me please.
I have not scanned the other side as its only naming the Deputy registrar and the undertaker and the cemetery where he was buried.

That wording is all the info I am after thanks, unless anyone knows when Mary McCarthy and her son Morris (Maurice) came to NZ etc or where her husband m (1877) vanished too!
Or even a birth for Albert Joseph Morton.born abt 1872.

I am appreciating all your assistance, thank you.
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: telephonist on Thursday 07 December 17 08:12 GMT (UK)
I did not upload this death cert, was given to me long ago by person unknown!
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: dublin1850 on Sunday 10 December 17 00:12 GMT (UK)
Can you upload the new scan please?
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: telephonist on Sunday 10 December 17 03:00 GMT (UK)
Trying again and including report of death etc. I thought this related to my Mary Morton as she was always known but it appears she was a defacto wife , Mary was married in NZ in 1877 , so this Mrs Morton is one of the other two wives of Maurice.
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: telephonist on Sunday 10 December 17 03:01 GMT (UK)
Part 2
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: telephonist on Sunday 10 December 17 03:02 GMT (UK)
reposting scanned part of document only.
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Wiggy on Sunday 10 December 17 03:10 GMT (UK)
After Galway Ireland . . .?New Zealand  (not sure though)
                                                 ??
Victoria 29? years
in the twelfth column
??   Richard 36 years
Mary Ann Lewis
In the Thirteenth?  Column
George?? Deceased
? Mary Frances        11 years
?  Martha Rebecca      8 years
      ?   ?                    6 years
      ?    ?                   3 years
George ?  ?Gordon                  1 year 5 mths
  ?   ?  marriage
Margaret               deceased
?  Mary  Frances    deceased 
 ? Martha Rebecca  deceased   
       
                  * 11 August   1886

The second side of the death certificate should read like this - and these remarks in the central column are referring to the last three of columns I suspect.  That is why we are asking for them.   ;)  They are possibly corrections or additions.
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: telephonist on Sunday 10 December 17 03:20 GMT (UK)
Took me a couple of hours to get this posted, maybe something amiss with Rootschat for a while?
Nothing on your post?
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: majm on Sunday 10 December 17 03:28 GMT (UK)
The headings on each column are significant.   Here’s a start, fingers crossed it will be a help of sorts.   
 It may well be worthwhile considering if your pennies could stretch to downloading this document as a pdf from Vic BDM. 

I can see where this document has noted this person was married twice or more….

But, the snip does not show which column has that specific  ‘asterisk’  …. or the column headings... :)

Here's my quick read (sorry, I have not any further spare moments at this minute  :) )

In that Column
Should read xxxxxxx
Xxxxxx xxxxxx

In fourth Column  47 years

In Sixth Column, John Mark
Mary Green.

In Eleventh Column
Galway Ireland, New Zealand  (JM comments - so likely from Ireland then to NZ and then to Vic?)
      After
Xxxxxxx  21 years

In twelth Column
Sandhurst Victoria 36 years
Xxxxxx   xxxx xxxx

In Thirteenth Column
George Glexxxxiham, Deceased
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 18 years
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 8 years
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 6 years
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 5 years  (JM wonders if it could be 3)
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 1 year 5mth
former Marriage
Margaret Deceased
Mary xxxxxxx Deceased
Martha Rebecca  Deceased.

W.H.  x August 1886

JM
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: majm on Sunday 10 December 17 03:29 GMT (UK)
Yes, sorry Wiggy,  I did not get a Red Post warning  ::)  :-[

ADD, after checking and thinking it through....   

Your post just had a 'full stop' initially.   I think this would explain telephonist's post.

Took me a couple of hours to get this posted, maybe something amiss with Rootschat for a while?
Nothing on your post?

JM
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Wiggy on Sunday 10 December 17 03:30 GMT (UK)
Telephonist

;)  (I think this is the time in UK when RC goes on hold for a while while they update everything.)

JM - I do that so I can read the post and make the transcriptions without running back and forward!   ;)
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 10 December 17 03:31 GMT (UK)
For reference, a sample here of the numbered columns on a Vic death cert and the information required...

http://wrathall.org/wrathall/james/australia/elizDC.jpg

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Wiggy on Sunday 10 December 17 03:32 GMT (UK)
Think that's what I just posted!   ;)  the right hand page headings!   :)
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: majm on Sunday 10 December 17 03:32 GMT (UK)
;)  (I think this is the time in UK when RC goes on hold for a while while they update everything.)

Today, that occurred at 1315 hours AEDST  - ie over an hour ago.

JM
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 10 December 17 03:36 GMT (UK)

In that Column
Should read xxxxxxx
Xxxxxx xxxxxx

JM

"In third column should read Maurice Joseph Morton"

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 10 December 17 03:37 GMT (UK)
Think that's what I just posted!   ;)  the right hand page headings!   :)

Sorry I will try to keep up   ;D
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Wiggy on Sunday 10 December 17 03:40 GMT (UK)
But you are right about Maurice Joseph Morton!!    ;D (I couldn't see that on the original scan - got it very wrong!)

 - much better with the bigger scan though still difficult.

Wiggy    :)
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: majm on Sunday 10 December 17 03:44 GMT (UK)
Telephonist

;)  (I think this is the time in UK when RC goes on hold for a while while they update everything.)

JM - I do that so I can read the post and make the transcriptions without running back and forward!   ;)

Fair enough, but umm.... err .... could you please mention when you modify your post to add your transcription, that you are modifying the post....  I have seen some RChatters in hot water/severely criticised and then offended etc ...  over similar significant modifications because they ummm... modified without making any mention...  ::) . 

JM
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 10 December 17 03:55 GMT (UK)
Father is John MORTON and mother's surname on Vic BDM index is GARENS.  I think I would agree with that and they can probably read the original better than we can read a copy.

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: majm on Sunday 10 December 17 04:08 GMT (UK)
VIC BDM online index births to Maurice Joseph and Mary Ann MORTON  (Mary Ann LEWIS !)

1874 # 15502  George Glenn William
1876 # 3449  Mary Frances
1878 # 9829 Martha Rebecca
1880 # 23382 Sarah Georgina
1883 # 26127Jessie Lewis
1885 # 13400 George Gordon


Also noticing
Morris Joseph and Mary Ann MORTON (Mary Ann nee BOYD !)
1869 #4853  Margaret Ann

https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj


JM
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 10 December 17 04:15 GMT (UK)
The two gazette snips posted in reply 13 and 14 are not for the same drowning.

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: telephonist on Sunday 10 December 17 04:26 GMT (UK)
Thanks everyone for all your help and advice on this subject.
My Mary never married Morton so i dont need to proceed any further with this.

She married as Mary McCarthy (maiden) in NZ to Edward Hall although always known as Morton.
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 10 December 17 04:33 GMT (UK)

Mary came to NZ with Maurice George Morton (son) I dont know when but she ended up in Hokitika married a Edward Waters Hall in 1877.
I have been unable to prove where her second son Albert Joseph Morton was born, about 1872 from the date on his death cert in NZ.

According to Mary, Albert was born 30 May 1872.

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP18861210.2.22?query=albert%20morton

Debra  :D
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: telephonist on Sunday 10 December 17 04:37 GMT (UK)
Whoa, a great note to finish on as I didnt know anything of this or have never found a birth for Albert in NZ or Australia. Many thanks.
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: majm on Sunday 10 December 17 04:45 GMT (UK)
1872  Vic BDM births online

MORCOM Albert
Mother as Mary Jane (Morcom)  #25429

ADD, at Stawell, Victoria


JM  :)

ADD

Possibly NOT your lad as seems he did not survive infancy

VIC BDM death
Albert Morcom
Mother as Mary Jane Morcom
1872 # 10155

JM  :'(

Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: telephonist on Sunday 10 December 17 04:51 GMT (UK)
All you very clever people, thanks so much.

Any of you care to help me locate a death for Edward Waters HALL who Mary married in Hokitika 1877.
Never found a death notice for him and only know he was born in Devon and approx age from his marriage cert?
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 12 December 17 11:11 GMT (UK)
Can you please scan the marriage certificate, MCCARTHY - EDWARDS, 1877, so that we can see all the information.

I think you have said that Mary had been in NZ for four months before the marriage, and Edward for...several years?

Can you please confirm this, and give your source.

How did Mary, with small children, get to NZ, and marry so soon after arrival.......why did Mary go to NZ ........relative there? 
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: telephonist on Tuesday 12 December 17 22:47 GMT (UK)
Hello Wivenhoe, Yes these are all the questions i have too. I dont know of any relations in NZ for Mary, as she came with 2 small kids guess she was on the lookout for a husband quickly!

The source of when they came etc was in the Intentions to Marry records prior to marriage.

I know you asked me to upload the cert but i am having too much trouble trying to get the size right.
The only details on it are both names and ages although hers says FULL and she is a widow (untrue) no actual marriage in Australia! Married in Hokitika 30th Jan 1877 and name written for marriage is EDWARD but he seems to have signed his name Edwin! He was a butcher.
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 13 December 17 00:46 GMT (UK)

Who are the witnesses on the marriage certificate.
Title: Re: Great eyes needed for this one!
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 13 December 17 01:52 GMT (UK)

I think you have said that Mary had been in NZ for four months before the marriage, and Edward for...several years?

Can you please confirm this, and give your source.

How did Mary, with small children, get to NZ, and marry so soon after arrival.......why did Mary go to NZ ........relative there?

telephonist has a few threads going which relate to Edwin/Edward HALL.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=783321.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=81510.msg342075#msg342075
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=78598.msg326843#msg326843

In Aug 2005 spades provided the details on the Intention to Marry, which says Mary was in residence 4 years, and Edwin for 4 months.