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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Mark Harris on Wednesday 06 December 17 16:35 GMT (UK)

Title: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: Mark Harris on Wednesday 06 December 17 16:35 GMT (UK)
I have been looking for birth records for the HARRIS family, three children of James and Clara Harris. Edith May, Cecil James and Leslie Percy. James and Clara appear on the 1901 census with the first two kids, Edith 2 and Cecil 3/12, and then again on the 1911 with Leslie aged 7. I can find no record at all of the children's births, nor of James and Clara's marriage. So I can't get Clara's maiden name. It is very frustrating and I have tried all sorts of variations but with no luck.

Can anyone suggest why none of the children appear to have been registered? Cecil was my Grandad.
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: BumbleB on Wednesday 06 December 17 16:42 GMT (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat  :)

First query - I assume we are talking about England or Wales?  And a general area of the country would be helpful  :)

OK - answer is England and 1901 is London  ;)
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: JJen on Wednesday 06 December 17 16:49 GMT (UK)
A warm welcome to RootsChat :)

Wonder if this could be them? -

Edith May Haszell
q4 1898, Poplar
Vol 1c Page 599

Cecil James Haszell
q1 1901, Poplar
Vol 1c Page 610

Both with mother's maiden name Stanhope.

JJ
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 06 December 17 16:54 GMT (UK)
I see James and Clara are aged 42 and 36 in 1901, with the two small children.  Plenty of time for them to have been married before, and maybe therefore they never married each other if either party were still married to someone else.  In which case I guess it is possible the children were registered with Clara's surname, which of course is the one thing we do not know!

(the 1911 with Leslie is escaping me at present - where are they then? And are the other children still at home?)
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: rosie99 on Wednesday 06 December 17 16:55 GMT (UK)
I was about to post the same as Jjen
also
Births Mar 1904 
Haszell    Leslie Percy   mmn Stanhope    
Holborn    1b   713
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: JJen on Wednesday 06 December 17 16:55 GMT (UK)
Leslie Percy Haszell
q1 1904, Holborn
Vol 1b Page713
MMN - Stanhope

JJ

Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 06 December 17 16:56 GMT (UK)
Marriage
3 MAy 1885
Holy Trinity Islington
Clara Stanhope, 31, spinster, 7 Parkville Street, father Thomas Stanhope , carpenter
to James Haszell, 25, bachelor, waiter, 7 Parkville Str, father William Haszell, hairdresser
Witnesses: James Potter and MArgaret Milne

(groom indexed HArgett on Ancestry LMA records)
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: BumbleB on Wednesday 06 December 17 17:05 GMT (UK)
Amazing  :o 

1891 they appear as Harris also - James born Ipswich, aged 33, and Clara from Poplar aged 27.

Moderator comment: 1911 census details removed, you may only post information from a free search. Our policy has not changed

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=355485.0



Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: rosie99 on Wednesday 06 December 17 17:08 GMT (UK)
1861 James is with parents
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7FW-Q4R

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJQN-F9R
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 06 December 17 17:08 GMT (UK)
I think James Harris is James Harris (and that is why he signs as such). But Clara is Clara Haszell and still legally married to the younger man, James Haszell - thus not free to marry James Harris.

Or are you thinking the 2 James are one and the same people, just very fluid on ages?
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: BumbleB on Wednesday 06 December 17 17:15 GMT (UK)


Moderator comment: 1911 census details removed
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: rosie99 on Wednesday 06 December 17 17:24 GMT (UK)
Or are you thinking the 2 James are one and the same people, just very fluid on ages?

That is what I am thinking.  Can you find James Haszell or his parents 1871/1881  :-\

1871 with grandparents
RG10/271 f4 p1
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB6N-KJG
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: BumbleB on Wednesday 06 December 17 17:24 GMT (UK)
I know there's a gap in time - 1885 to 1911 but these are the two signatures for James ????

Moderator comment: 1911 census details removed
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: tazzie on Wednesday 06 December 17 17:24 GMT (UK)
James Haszell of 55 Bedford Road East Ham Essex. Died 16 Feb 1923  leaves administration to wife Clara.

Tazzie
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 06 December 17 17:28 GMT (UK)
I know there's a gap in time - 1885 to 1911 but these are the two signatures for James ????

 

I lean towards them being different people - thus Clara still married to Haszell. But am probably wrong!!!!!
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: lizdb on Wednesday 06 December 17 17:38 GMT (UK)
1861
Waltham Cross Herts
William Haszell 25 hairdresser bn Ipswich
Emma 20 wife b Limehouse
William S 2
James 1     children bn Ipswich


so this is the James that marries Clara in 1895 - and details do go nicely with the James HArris too, who was bn Ipswich!!

OK - same person!!!!
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: Mark Harris on Wednesday 06 December 17 17:41 GMT (UK)
Blimey, you lot really are expert. I will have to digest this, not what I was expecting really. Name changes, signatures...fantastic stuff.
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: Mark Harris on Wednesday 06 December 17 21:40 GMT (UK)
If I could buy you all a drink I would. Thanks so much, this has been driving me nuts!
Haszell to Harris...odd.

Thanks again for informing me that I am related to male hairdressers from Ipswich!!!
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 07 December 17 12:43 GMT (UK)
He may be a Hair Dresser as discussed in this thread  :-\

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=553586.0
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: Mark Harris on Thursday 07 December 17 13:17 GMT (UK)
Thanks Rosie99. I can't tell you how grateful I am for all this.
You must be great in pub quizzes.

We are all trying to work out now why Haszall became Harris. Embarrassment? Harris a more city type name perhaps as they all progressed to London looking for work? On the run from something??

On the wedding BMD I note the spelling has become Hasyell and then Hasqell...entered twice, even he was still trying to get spelling right. Maybe it was just easier!

"Haszall...what a funny name, where's that from then?" No one asks if you say Harris.

Thank you to everyone who posted.
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 07 December 17 13:35 GMT (UK)
His brother William S seems to have kept the surname.  It is odd that James death record was registered as Haszell when he had been calling himself Harris.  I have yet to find him in 1881.

Think how often you would be needing to spell your surname if it hadn't changed  ;D

Rosie

Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: Mark Harris on Thursday 07 December 17 13:50 GMT (UK)
James and Claras second child, born 1901, Cecil James Haszell (Harris) was my grandfather. He left home due to a failed marriage (1929 - Jiggins)  and my dad, Raymond Cecil Harris, born 1930, was put into care etc. Story my dad was told was that he killed himself after he left home. He has a death certificate for him as James Harris, died 1936, employed as a manservant in Plymouth. His mum then remarried in 1937.

Like a good detective story this, my dad got the death certificate when he was in the RAF and was wondering about his dad who he did not know. It always seemed strange why it was James Harris, but I can not find a death for Cecil James Harris or Haszell.
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: JJen on Thursday 07 December 17 20:36 GMT (UK)
Just a bit of extra info for you  :)

It would appear that Cecil James Harris served in the Royal Navy -

Cecil James Harris
Birth Date - 14 Jan 1901
Birth Place - Poplar London
First Service Date - 18 Jun 1919
First Ship Served On - Pembroke
Last Service Date - 17 Jun 1924
Last Ship Served On - Pembroke II
Service Number - L12520

JJ
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: rosie99 on Friday 08 December 17 07:25 GMT (UK)
Story my dad was told was that he killed himself after he left home. He has a death certificate for him as James Harris, died 1936, employed as a manservant in Plymouth.

Does this certificate confirm a suicide  :-\
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: Mark Harris on Friday 08 December 17 10:59 GMT (UK)
Yes it does.

Died 4th October 1936, 244 North Road, Plymouth. James Harris.
Male, 36, Manservant.
Did kill himself by inhaling coal gas their being no evidence as to the state of his mind at the time.
Certificate received from W.E.J. Major, Coroner for City of Plymouth Inquest held 8th October 1936.

He was buried in Efford Cemetery, Plymouth Grave No. C.6202

My dads mum then married again in 1937. Seems to add up but......
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: rosie99 on Friday 08 December 17 16:52 GMT (UK)
Thank you for posting the information, It certainly looks as though its the right death certificate  :)
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: Mark Harris on Friday 08 December 17 20:33 GMT (UK)
Yes, now I have some more information it certainly fits. My dad, his son is still alive, 87 and still moaning! I have asked him a few times what made him think it was his dad but he said the RAF would not make a mistake like the wrong certificate.

Thanks again for all the help, it really has helped and I really was at the end of my wits. Its still a bit strange, Haszel to Harris but it all fits.

Have a good Xmas.
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: isobelw on Friday 08 December 17 21:29 GMT (UK)
There are several entries in the London Workhouse records on Ancestry for what looks like William Haszell, father of James. They start in the mid 1880's with the last at the end of 1901. His year of birth is given as 1834/35 ( except in 1901 when it says 1841) and his occupation is Barber. Can't see any sign of him or wife Emma ( nee Coomes)  after 1861 apart from these entries. On one entry in 1899 his address is given as 332 Grays Inn Road. No sign of him in 1901 census as far as I can see.
Perhaps the change of name on the part of James was to distance himself from his father.
Isobel
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: Mark Harris on Saturday 09 December 17 11:40 GMT (UK)
Thanks for this.

Emma was born in 1841 so maybe a mistake.
James and Clara are down as coffee Tavern Manager in the 1901 census, as Harris.

You could be right! 332 Grays Inn Road is now a pub, I wonder if that's what they managed. It looks like it's always been a pub or tavern.

Can't find their deaths either.
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: isobelw on Saturday 09 December 17 12:38 GMT (UK)
Think I may have found William Haszell in 1901. Down as William Hazell ( actual entry not clear so could well say Haszell) age 67 born Ipswich, occ. Barber ( out of work) living at 4 Little Cross Street, Islington. Wife with him is a Margaret age 48 born Clerkenwell.
Isobel
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: Mark Harris on Saturday 09 December 17 13:04 GMT (UK)
Wasn't his wife called Emma Coomes, born 1841, married in 1858?
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 09 December 17 13:25 GMT (UK)
He may be a Hair Dresser as discussed in this thread  :-\

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=553586.0

At least we now know he was a Barber  :)
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: isobelw on Saturday 09 December 17 13:25 GMT (UK)
It was. If this is him, which seems likely, then he has taken up with someone else along the way.
Isobel
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: isobelw on Saturday 09 December 17 13:53 GMT (UK)
Was looking for William in 1851 as he is not with his parents Joseph and Sarah. There is a possible for him in Epsom, Surrey working as a Jockey. Transcribed as Hagell on Ancestry but could easily be Haszell/Hazell. Right age and place of birth.
Isobel
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: Mark Harris on Saturday 09 December 17 14:12 GMT (UK)
Could be a jockey, My Dad is a small bloke and from Navy records it appears his Dad Cecil James Harris was 5'4".

Perhaps his wife Emma Sarah Coomes has died but I can't find a record of that.

Once again taking up with another woman, a younger one at that, was another reason for the family discord. I always thought people were a lot better behaved in those days. It seems human nature is pretty constant really.

Thanks Isobel.
Title: Re: Can't locate family on GRO
Post by: Mark Harris on Saturday 09 December 17 15:12 GMT (UK)
Isobel

4 Cross street in Islington is still a hairdressers!

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5387862,-0.0990786,2a,75y,1.62h,105.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOkHYym5MBCP-FVRQHzYqhQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656