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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: guest259648 on Thursday 07 December 17 19:24 GMT (UK)
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Please help me find the background of my Irish ancestor JOHN McTIMONEY
The romantic & dramatic family legend says he had to flee from Ireland to England, and change his name.
I rather think he came over to England for financial reasons and, since he could not sign his name on his marriage certificate (and must have had quite an accent), nobody knew quite how to spell it.
His history remains a mystery. Can you shed any light?
McTIMONEY seems a made-up name. All the McTIMONEYS I can find, stem from this one man.
John's marriage certificate (1874, McTIMLEY, not McTimoney) states that his father is/was James McTIMLEY, a butcher, presumably in Northern Ireland.
The censuses state that John was born in Belfast.
He was definitely an accomplished shoe-maker.
John's DOB, according to the censuses, seems to be about 1834, however my mother remembered him from her childhood and he seemed to her an old man, with a shock of white hair, older than 66 when he died.
Some years ago a researcher believed she had found him recorded as a cobbler in Northampton (Trade Directory? Northampton had a big boot & shoe industry), but I cannot now locate the record.
Where was John in 1841? and 1851? and 1861? (After that he was in Birmingham).
When did he come over to England (or Scotland?), and how?
Who was James McTimley, butcher? And who was John's mother?
And why and how did the name change to McTimoney, which it has remained?
Thank you for all suggestions. :-)
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Drop the Mc, which happened a lot in Ireland and there are some possible variants.
Timiney
Timmoney
Timney
Timley
When Irish Genealogy have added all death cert images (should be before the end of 2018) you may be able to find the butcher's death.
In the mean time you can have a look for other name variants here, a death, or possible a marriage of a sibling.
I searched using Mi*ey
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
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Thank you Sinann, for your thoughts and the very useful link.
Irish surnames from the 19th century seem to have many more variations in spelling than the names of my English ancestors. Is this still the case, in modern times?
It's interesting that 'McTimoney' seems to have become a fixed spelling for this family, now they are England-based.
Rosie
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That particular name does appear to have a few possible variations but I'm not aware names in Ireland have more or less variation than any where else.
Like every where spelling has become standardized over the years.
The marriage certs available to view on that site at the moment may not be early enough to find a sibling John, again they should all be available before the end of 2018.
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Perhaps McTimoney evolved from the surname McAtamney (which is found in Belfast).
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McAtamney - yes, I can well imagine this could have evolved into McTim(o)ney... good idea of yours.
Is McAtamney very local to Belfast?
Does it have a translation/meaning?
Following Sinann's suggestion I have been exploring using the wildcard ** and have found quite a large number of variations (many of which may be mis-readings/mis-hearings) including
McTimney
McTimley (the N being mis-heard for an L?)
McTimminey
McTimmoney
McTimny
McTamney
...however, what's significant is that the folk from Ireland with this name (& variations) who've come over to England in the 19th century are concentrated in a only very few areas. I've found Durham (coal mines?), Carlisle (stop-off point?), one in Glasgow, and then just my own branch of the family, originally in Birmingham (founder John McTimoney 1834 - 1901), which has now spread out a little (Darlington/Stockton, Banbury, Isle of Wight).
A member of my branch founded the "McTimoney technique", used in complementary medicine.
No sign yet of any JAMES MCTIMONEY/MCTIMLEY, butcher, who 'my' John gave as his father.
Are there any Belfast Directories which might be consulted, from the early 19th century? A butcher would definitely have advertised his trade?
Rosie
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Belfast queries belong on the ANTRIM board (just click on 'report to moderator' and ask for this thread to be moved there) and at the top of that board is a child board called ANTRIM RESOURCES & OFFERS. I'm no longer able to add or update the topics there but under directories you'll see listings for various ones online. However, those for early 1800s probably won't list every tradesperson in Belfast.
Also some directories here- http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/
In this 1843 directory 'butchers' listed under fleshers-
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/1843TRADESP.htm
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Apologies if this is in the wrong place.(Please redirect me.)
Seeking look-up assistance in any relevant records for:
McTamney, McAtamney or other plausible spellings.
Location: Belfast and (possibly) Ballymoney.
Period: 1790 - 1840 (at a guess).
Trying to locate the birth and marriage and any other children of a James McTamney who was old enough to have had a son John McTamney in circa 1835 in Belfast. At one stage in his life James worked as a butcher.
I've tried all the directories I can find online, but have found nothing useful.
I have no access to any church records, nor any knowledge of which type of records might be a fair replacement for what is missing.
Thank you. Please teach me.
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They were likely Catholic? if so, many parish registers are online (free) although some might not start early enough for your search-
https://registers.nli.ie
Which Ballymoney? there are several in County Antrim alone.
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aghadowey
Thank you for replying. Lovely to see these old records! [I can read all scripts, however these are difficult to view in detail on my computer because I can't adjust the focus or get close enough.]
Anyway, I've checked my great-aunt's notes and they suggest that John McAtamney (son of James) was an "Orange Man". And that's Protestant, I think? Are there any useful Protestant records for Belfast from the first part of the 19th century?
Ballymoney: alas I don't yet know which; all I have is the name.
D :-)
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No such thing as 'Protestant' church records- you need to search by denomination (Church of Ireland, Presbyterian, Methodist, etc.). Looking at the list of possible churches in Belfast area alone shows how many possible churches-
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/proni-guide-church-records
There are McAtamneys in Ballymoney/Kilrea area but almost all, if not all, Catholic.
James McTamney who was old enough to have had a son John McTamney in circa 1835 in Belfast. At one stage in his life James worked as a butcher.
Where did you get information that son John was born c1835 Belfast? did John marry? die in Ireland or elsewhere? have you found James in any census records?
At what stage did James work as a butcher? any other occupation? It wasn't uncommon for farmers to also be listed as butchers but in Belfast could have had a shop.
Unfortunately, at this stage, with little detail, even if you do find a John McTamney born c1835 Belfast with father James you cant bee 100 % sure you've found the right person.
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Thanks for correcting me - please carry on! You're the expert here.
I began this difficult search years ago... I think I posted a request on here in about 2016, but nothing came of it at the time. Since then I've tried to collect more family stories and recollections to try to improve the chances of success. And hopefully there are more records online now.
I have a reasonably full picture of the later years of John (son of James) who can be found working in England from 1861 onwards, till his death 40 years later (he died in England). John told people that he was born in 'Belfast' in approx. 1834/5, and he came to live permanently in England. (It's possible he came to England by himself; there's no suggestion from the censuses of any Irish blood relatives or people of the same surname [except his wife & children] ever residing or staying with him.) The quest is to find out exactly who John's father was, so we can look backwards, but all we have of use is a name on John's marriage certificate from 1874, i.e. James, with the designation 'butcher'. It does not say 'deceased', so there is a chance James was still alive in 1874.
John christened his first child Eliza. There's no Eliza easily visible in John's wife's family, so could Eliza be John's mother's name, we wonder.
I'm happy to conduct a very extensive search through every possible church, it doesn't matter if there are thousands! - this is a long-standing family mystery we really want to solve.
So, a 'butcher' could have been a farmer, with a shop in Belfast, you say? I like that idea.
If most Mc(A)Tamneys in the area are Catholic, is it likely that one would be so different e.g. Presbyterian? - would one 'break away' from the usual pattern? Or was that too unusual? The "Orange Man" connection could well be an invention of my great aunt's, so I treat it with great caution.
Should I be looking at the Catholic records first, since they could contain what I want?
If so, do you know a way of bringing them into better focus on my screen?
D :-)
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PS
Here's further info, to narrow it down: I believe the 'Ballymoney' [Baile Muine?] is almost definitely "Ballymoney Townland" which I'm told is in Belfast Upper, part of Shankill.
Does that help us home in on a likely church, for a baptism in the 1830s?
I'm also now wondering if John (son of James) rejected Catholicism, and this is why John came to England; he was possibly rejected/chased away by his Belfast family?
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No need to start a new topic- you can just continue the original one to keep all the information in one place.
Threads merged.
So, a 'butcher' could have been a farmer, with a shop in Belfast, you say? I like that idea.
A farmer could also have done butchering on a large scale but it is unlikely a farmer would have had a shop in Belfast.
I'm happy to conduct a very extensive search through every possible church, it doesn't matter if there are thousands! - this is a long-standing family mystery we really want to solve.
Not all church records from that period survive and of those that do not all are online. PRONI has microfilmed copies of many, not all, records but they are closed at the moment due to Covid-19.
Another point is that James saying he was born in 'Belfast' doesn't mean that he was born in the city. Being in England he might just have given the name of the city rather than a more rural place somewhere outside the city limits. When my greatgrandmother's uncle died in 1890 overseas his obituary stated he was born in Belfast but the family actually lived 50 miles away.
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.. John's marriage certificate from 1874, i.e. James, with the designation 'butcher'. It does not say 'deceased"
You have a marriage certificate, 1874.
Can you please list all the information on this certificate.
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wivenhoe
Thank you for your interest.
MARRIAGE CERT:
Birmingham St Philip's [Church of England] April 8th 1874
John McTimley aged 40 Bachelor Shoe Maker Hill Street (B'ham) Father James McTimley Butcher
Isabella Carlow* aged 30 Spinster [no occ.] Hill Street (B'ham) Father Michael Carlow Shoe Maker
John signed with an X. Isabella wrote her name.
Witnesses (hard to read): James "Ma[hone]y"??? and Joseph H[...]Gell???? (my guesses). (Can you assist? The certificate is on Ancestry.)
The family confirms that the L in 'Timley' as seen here is a vicar's error (mishearing). Nowhere else is an L included in the name, wherever it is written. Always MN or MON.
I have researched the CARLOW* family with ease (from Newport Shrops/Shifnal), but it gives no clues to John's ancestry.
Rootschat adviser aghadowey suggested several years ago that the earlier Irish surname could be McTAMNEY (rather than 'TIM') and family members agree this could very well be so. But there are a few McTIMNEYS on the 19th century censuses, so the version containing 'I' needs to be kept in mind.
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aghadowey, thank you.
I've asked for this topic to be moved to where you recommend :-) (I think it's been done.)
You say: "A farmer could also have done butchering on a large scale but it is unlikely a farmer would have had a shop in Belfast."
Well a farmer/butcher could have had a shop anywhere, couldn't he, even in a tiny village; I've seen them in Ireland in the middle of nowhere.
The Belfast area called Ballymoney (assuming this is accurate) is still right on the very (western) edge of Belfast city and rural... in the early 19th century it would have been very green indeed.
I agree with your point that 'Belfast' doesn't mean John was actually born in the city. Thank you for sharing your story about your greatgrandmother's uncle, it's a useful indicator of how people describe things - especially to people who aren't familiar with the area (or country) they're talking about. 'Belfast' might just have been the nearest big place, somewhere an English person might have heard of.
How could we find out what farms existed on the western edge of Belfast in the early 19th century? The history books suggest that farming in that general area moved over to cattle etc to avoid problems with diseased crops, so e.g. a pig/beef farm is a definite possibility for James McTIM-/TAMNEY.
D
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You say: "A farmer could also have done butchering on a large scale but it is unlikely a farmer would have had a shop in Belfast."
Well a farmer/butcher could have had a shop anywhere, couldn't he, even in a tiny village; I've seen them in Ireland in the middle of nowhere.
There's a huge difference between a small shop in an Irish village in the 1900s, or even late 1800s, and a shop in Belfast. A butcher could also be farming on some scale and butchering animals for himself and neighbours OR could have been a butcher in Belfast working either in his own shop or working for someone with a shop. The fact that James 'McTamney' wasn't found in directories might mean he was working in someone else's shop in Belfast.
Have you tried using DNA to find matches with other possible relatives from this part of the family?
I'm curious about the possible 'Ballymoney' connection- where does this information come from?
If James was farming at Ballymoney near Belfast he should nearly be listed in Griffith's Vauation (printed 1861) and at least the first Revision book- unless he was dead or moved away before 1861. There are two Ballymoneys near Belfast city- I can't see anything even close to McTamney in either-
www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
Ballymoney Antrim Belfast, upper Shankill Ballymoney
and
Ballymoney Antrim Belfast, lower Island magee Ballymoney
The history books suggest that farming in that general area moved over to cattle etc to avoid problems with diseased crops, so e.g. a pig/beef farm is a definite possibility for James McTIM-/TAMNEY.
Farming would have been on a small scale and very diversified in the 1800s, with most farmers being tenants rather than owning their land.
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Dulcieburn, can you supply details of John's 1871 census entry (you mentioned previously looking for 1841, 51, 61, so I assumed you had found 1871), as I'm struggling to see it? I can see FindMyPast have him indexed as McTuisoney ( ::) ), in 1881, and have Belfast, Antrim, Ireland as place of birth (but like aghadowey said, it has been known for people, especially in Census returns outwith Ireland, to give 'Belfast' as place of birth, even if they were born and/or lived many, many, many miles from there - I have come across such in my own research too).
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Dulcieburn, can you supply details of John's 1871 census entry (you mentioned previously looking for 1841, 51, 61, so I assumed you had found 1871), as I'm struggling to see it? I can see FindMyPast have him indexed as McTuisoney ( ::) ), in 1881, and have Belfast, Antrim, Ireland as place of birth (but like aghadowey said, it has been known for people, especially in Census returns outwith Ireland, to give 'Belfast' as place of birth, even if they were born and/or lived many, many, many miles from there - I have come across such in my own research too).
scotmum, it's kind of you to help.
Thanks for your comments about the use of Belfast as a place of origin, helpful.
The correct census entries are a nightmare to locate because John's surname has been misrepresented (mangled!) in the indexes every single time. I've had to trawl through masses of lists, picking out anything I think has been wrongly read - but, in the end, you do get there. (Once you're able to view the image yourself, you can see why the transcriber read what they did.)
McTuisoney, yes, I chuckled at that.
I'm working from memory here (I don't have my notes; forgive me if I trip up):
UK census collections, online indexes:
1841 nothing yet found
1851 nothing yet found
1861 I found John ['Jno'] in Northampton, lodging/boarding and learning his trade as a shoemaker; the name in the index was badly wrong but it is definitely him; he's boarding/lodging alongside another Irishman, I wonder if they came over to England together;
1871 [answering your request]: closest match so far is a 35-year-old John "McTavery" bootmaker in Greenock, Scotland; this man was born Ireland, feels very likely, investigations ongoing;
1881 In Birmingham, now wed; the surname in indexes is mis-spelled;
1891 In Birmingham; the surname in indexes is something like 'McSarney' .
John died in 1901, the census year, and on the 1901 his daughters can be found living together without him.
John (bootmaker) & his large family lived in a very small area of central Birmingham (e.g. Navigation St, Beak St, Hill St), I think it's Market Hall ward, about where New Street Station now is.
D
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aghadowey
They say we carry our history inside ourselves... sound a bit New Age (!), however instinct is a powerful thing and I have some blood from this Irish family inside me.
To be honest I don't feel James "McT" was a farmer. There are no farmers in my 'crowd' (ancestral or modern-day) anywhere at all and I feel no pull towards that way of life. But a SHOP, oh yes! And I agree, James might have worked in someone else's shop, so he wouldn't appear in any directory would he.
(Ballymoney is a word that's been floating around for ever. It's the only word we have, except for the stated 'Belfast'.)
I confess I have no idea how to explore DNA matches. Please show me?
D
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You have to do a DNA test (there are different companies availble and each have their advantages & disadvantages in the way you can use the results to trace relationships to other DNA matches).
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aghadowey
OK. Thank you.
What might be the outcome of a DNA test, I'm thinking? Forgive my ignorance, I've never looked at this before.
None of the 'McTimoney' clan I've contacted have a clue about John's origins. We have a 100-year-old member still in Birmingham, they were actually there to hear what was said in the 1920s, very close to John himself, but they are still none the wiser.
Would the test show if I'm connected with any community in the (wider) Belfast area? How accurate and useful is it?
D
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Much has been written about DNA tests, results, etc.- there's even a separate board for it here on Rootschat.
In order to find matches to another branch of McTimleys (say descendants of another son or daughter of James) descendant(s) would also have done a DNA test so results vary according to information (DNA) available. When you get results I think all sites allow you see your matches in order of relationship so a sibling, parent or first cousin would be listed well before 4th cousin, etc.
Since your link to James McTimley is probably back quite a few generations you would need to do lots of work in order to figure out which matches might also be connected to him. Bear in mind that by now many descendants will probably have different surnames and could be anywhere in the world.
Even is another branch of McTimley family has done DNA they may not show up in your matches if there's only a frangment of common DNA. I have a few matches where I match someone and their cousins but not their sister while OH matches both sister & one cousin but now others.
Another problem is that many people either don't know their ancestry back far enough to figure out a connection, don't include a family tree or don't bother to reply to messages.
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Probably just worth noting the following, in case a Carrickfergus connection should emerge later... the 1852 Belfast and Province of Ulster Directory for 1852 shows the following entry for that town, which is about 12 miles NE of central Belfast: McAtamney, James, butcher, Irish Quarter.
What looks like his son James married a Susan Lunn in Joymount Presbyterian Church in 1877, the spelling used was McAtaminey:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1877/11133/8076532.pdf
There was also a Carrickfergus butcher of the same era called Daniel McAtamney, I don't know if related to James or not.
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Probably just worth noting the following, in case a Carrickfergus connection should emerge later... the 1852 Belfast and Province of Ulster Directory for 1852 shows the following entry for that town, which is about 12 miles NE of central Belfast: McAtamney, James, butcher, Irish Quarter.
What looks like his son James married a Susan Lunn in Joymount Presbyterian Church in 1877, the spelling used was McAtaminey:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1877/11133/8076532.pdf
There was also a Carrickfergus butcher of the same era called Daniel McAtamney, I don't know if related to James or not.
gaffy
Oooh!!! That's worth checking out... Thank you for your sharp eyes.
I'll write back as soon as I've had a good look.
Very grateful, D :-)
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aghadowey
Thank you for so carefully explaining to me the benefits (and limitations) of taking this DNA route.
When there's a tough challenge (such as this one) I think every avenue needs to be explored, and so I would definitely consider this. But I'll keep going with a search of the records for a little while longer, because I sense there are things to be found... there's a lot more available than when I was looking before.
D
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gaffy
Oooh!!! That's worth checking out... Thank you for your sharp eyes.
I'll write back as soon as I've had a good look.
Very grateful, D :-)
No problem, just a possibility to park, in case there is a future 'hook' to the Carrickfergus area in your research. :)
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gaffy
Carrickfergus certainly isn't out of the question. Ignore any localities I've mentioned: our family is more or less in the dark regarding John's origins and so it's all guesswork anyway. The only concrete facts I have are from the records and, as members here are telling me, 'Belfast' can cover a wide area.
Looking at articles on 'Old Belfast' I've found that a street called Royal Avenue (formerly Hercules Street) contained 57 butchers at one point, blimey. But butchering definitely isn't for everybody, I think you need to be able to tolerate it; not everyone can do it. Perhaps my John really, really didn't want to follow his Dad and be a butcher, and that's why he fled! (I'm vegetarian, haha.)
What I desperately need is a BIRTH or BAPTISM for my John, but this is proving elusive. Older members of my family claimed that John 'changed his name when he came to England' (this information was always delivered with a dramatic flourish), however I don't know if this referred to a simple adjustment from e.g. Macataminy to McTimoney, or a complete change of part of it (to conceal his whereabouts?) - maybe he was originally a Daniel and wanted to lie low?
Are there any records for the Carrickfergus area which go back as far as 1834?
D