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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: Essnell on Friday 08 December 17 00:19 GMT (UK)

Title: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Friday 08 December 17 00:19 GMT (UK)
Hello,

Looking for the details of birth for William Holmes born in Tipperary, Ireland in sometime around 1844 or 1850.
He married Harriet Ann Burton in Ireland, Clogheen 1869
He immigrated to Australia in the 1870's  about 1872 but those dates are all I have re his birth.

His parents are presumably  Robert Holmes and Sarah Litchfield.

Trying to verify this information. I am digging but not getting very far.
Essnell
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Sinann on Friday 08 December 17 00:43 GMT (UK)
His marriage cert isn't online yet, do you have it?
Was he COI?
There aren't many Holmes results for Clogheen and only this marriage for Burton, so I wondered if Mary Holmes (widow Brown) with father William(possibly) Robert (a Clerk) could be a sister of your William.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1888/10761/5924558.pdf
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Friday 08 December 17 09:54 GMT (UK)
Hi Sinann

Thanks for reply.  I have absolutely no idea. I don't know anything much about the Irish background.

Yes I do have a copy of that: that is how I got the area of Tipperary and Clogheen.

I also have the Birth Cert for his first child also born in Ireland in county Cork. William Robert Holmes

i recently contacted the Waterford Archives but they do not have anything. I'm about to try the area for the other section of Tipperary. I cannot get anything re this off the GROIE as that starts at present at a few years later than the 1850 period.

I shall have a look at the link and let you know. I have wondered recently if there were siblings. No mention of any here in the information I have so far - more about descendants than ancestors.

Ta Essnell
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Friday 08 December 17 10:11 GMT (UK)
Hi again,
I just had a look.  The date is 1886 and I do not believe that any of William's family came here.
 so that is a possibility. A Coincidence that Mary's father is William Robert Holmes.

I will check this with the FHS Group for where they settled, worked and held land.

Let you know asap.

Essnell

Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Friday 08 December 17 10:32 GMT (UK)
I am sure you have checked all Holmes in the area but just in case

Harriet Ann Holmes married Mark Gilbert in 1858 - marriage not yet on IG.

Sarah Holmes, Shanbally,  grandmother was informant on birth of child Robert Frederick, 1865 and William in 1867.

Sarah Holmes, Shanbally, widow of a Coachman died 1891 informant William Gilbert

Robert Holmes, Shanbally, servant died 1879.

If Robert and Sarah are your William’s parents, he looks to have a sister coincidentally called Harriet Ann.

A coachman and a servant do not match ‘clerk’ though  :-\
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Sinann on Friday 08 December 17 13:45 GMT (UK)

Yes I do have a copy of that: that is how I got the area of Tipperary and Clogheen.

What type of church did it take place in?
What was his father's occupation?
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Friday 08 December 17 15:04 GMT (UK)
Hi Sinann,

William Holmes and Harriet Ann Burton were married in a United Church of England and Ireland.  30th Oct. 1869   Robert Holmes, William's Father, was a coachman. on this record.

Essnell.
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Sinann on Friday 08 December 17 15:13 GMT (UK)
It would have made all the difference if you gave that information in thr first post.
That fits with Sarah the Coachman's wife. Her husband was Robert, I think I saw something else for that couple, I'd have to look again.


Looking over the thread I think heywood has posted everything I saw on that couple.

Snap heywood, we must have been typing at the same time.
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Friday 08 December 17 15:16 GMT (UK)

See my reply #4   ::)

Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Friday 08 December 17 15:23 GMT (UK)
It would have made all the difference if you gave that information in thr first post.
That fits with Sarah the Coachman's wife. Her husband was Robert, I think I saw something else for that couple, I'd have to look again.


Looking over the thread I think heywood has posted everything I saw on that couple.

Snap heywood, we must have been typing at the same time.

 :)
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Friday 08 December 17 15:37 GMT (UK)
Hello Heywood,  Sinann
My apologies Ii never thought to include the father's occupations etc.   

I've checked many times and not got the answers.

I started looking into this when one could search a sort of pilot set up a number of years ago - it was free.  I found a lot of interesting stuff but it did not correlate to what family say, which sadly often is not correct.

I found the Harriet Ann Holmes and Mark Gilbert but could not connect it. I have kept the information. Thinking on the sister lines?
I had no other info re them.  I suspected that the family info was out by a generation or even wrong so started looking for William's birth.

With Sarah Holmes as Grandmother to the two births, it makes a lot more sense. 

The only piece of information on Sarah Holmes was a death in Clogheen 1891. So I kept that.

If Sarah Holmes is the grandmother of William  and Robert Frederick  I still need to get those birth Certs.  and I need that Sarah's maiden name.


PROGRESS  I believe    thankyou.

Essnell
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Friday 08 December 17 15:47 GMT (UK)
 
 :) good luck and hope we have helped. The births are online at IRish Genealogy as are the deaths of Robert and Sarah.
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Friday 08 December 17 16:22 GMT (UK)
If Sarah Holmes is the grandmother of William  and Robert Frederick  I still need to get those birth Certs.  and I need that Sarah's maiden name.

You mention she is Sarah Litchfield - where is that information from?
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Friday 08 December 17 16:38 GMT (UK)
There is this marriage -have you checked it?

1st January 1831 St George Hanover Square, Westminster, England
Robert Holmes and Sarah Litchfield

Witnesses Charles Holmes and Martha Holmes
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Friday 08 December 17 17:08 GMT (UK)
There are a couple of baptisms at Paddington Green St Mary’s

Ann Moria (Maria) Holmes 21st March 1832 Parents Robert,Cabriolet Driver and Sarah

Harriet Ann 3rd January 1836 (born in 1835) Robert , Cabriolet Proprietor and Sarah.

Both show address as Frederick Mews Paddington

I don’t know if it is your family but Harriet’s birth fits with the age at death of Harriet Gilbert.
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Saturday 09 December 17 05:13 GMT (UK)
Hi Heywood,

My reaction to your last post was --- good Grief! ----     

  Oh dear   - I believe Robert came over from Ireland at some point. Not sure where Sarah came from.

Per that record and I have kept it "in case".  I couldn't fit it to William.  Still unsure about that.

At that point, to me that didn't gel, given that William is said to be born in Ireland.   

It looks like they married in London.  But there seem to be several Robert Holmes and Several Sarah Litchfield.

The family you have found is a possible. Looks like they had two children in England then went back to Ireland where William was born. I have just heard about one called Robert Frederick. 

Before anything I need to look further at a few things.    I'll try to get some shipping movements of the family.  See If i can find out when they went either way and or IF.

thanks so much you have been very helpful - you people amaze me at what you find.

Cheers Essnell

Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Saturday 09 December 17 09:24 GMT (UK)
A couple of points
“several Robert Holmes and Sarah Litchfields” you write, but did they all marry each other?
If you know Sarah was a Litchfield then it is worth considering.

William may have been born in Ireland but it doesn’t mean that he was of Irish origins.

Ireland was under British rule then so there were no records of movement. Occupations connected with large houses and estates would be an attraction and some land holders would have houses in both Ireland and England.

I notice a message posted elsewhere re your family which says that ‘Robert was a vet according to William’s death certificate’ and that he leased land at Shanbally Castle from Viscount Lismore shown in Griffiths Valuation.
The O’ Callaghan family (Lismore) were Irish though from what I read.

It is just worth noting as there are similarities in names and occupation.

There seem to be other BMDs for Holmes in the area so it may be that the Holmes family were long time residents  :-\
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Saturday 09 December 17 09:33 GMT (UK)
You mention a child Robert Frederick.

Is this a different one to the child of Harriet Ann Holmes and Mark Gilbert?
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Saturday 09 December 17 16:01 GMT (UK)
Hi Heywood,

I was a bit confused by the fact that Sarah was the Grandmother of two boys and she was the informant.  They are the children of Harriett Ann and Mark.   This connects up a number of dots.  also those two BAPTISMS. not known about before. 

Got all the BMD's for both boys and one for the next generation of one of them. If all of this is good then my William is their Uncle. 

Re the Sarah Litchfield comment on numbers  - when I tried to find her on UK records there were lots, from all over the country. And no but some did.

Re the Vet etc on someoneles's site tree - I don't know how true that is yet. I don't take trees forgranted.  I have found 'A'  Robert Holmes in Ireland with land leased from Viscount Lismore and that Shanbally House was also mentioned. I also looked up Applotment Books and the lease recs.  All great info    .. If.... and only if this was the right person.  I have also looked into Shanbally House History hoping there would be a record of the persons living there.  No joy. Shanbally Castle was built by the Lismore Counts. It has been demolished ... sadly.

Yes. The owners the O'Callallaghan's were Irish but had titles. The First one was a Baron and his son was the 1st Viscount Lismore. Shanbally House was I believe also built by them on part of the estate.

I did this purely out of interest in the buildings and what possible link there might have been.
it didn't prove any parentage.  Just info re "a person of interest".

I also found more Holmes in the area and as you say... looks like they were well and truely settled in. That fact led me to look at another scenario.  I'll pm you with all of that for your perusal.

lat e her or rather early am like 2.00 am.

Essnell.    thank you. 
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Saturday 09 December 17 16:57 GMT (UK)
Hi again,
I too read up about Viscount Lismore hoping that he may have property in London re employment for Robert but I read that they were Irish.
The Holmes in the area, if I recall are a Jeremiah, Ellen and family who are Catholic.
Grandmother Sarah would be present at the births so perhaps natural to inform which is extra info for you  :)
If I recall too, the witnesses to the Holmes marriage were also Holmes but I would imagine it might be difficult to make connections.
I am inclined to the belief that they were English and seeking employment perhaps but it is still not really proven that they are the same family.
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Saturday 09 December 17 17:05 GMT (UK)
Here is Mark Gilbert in 1911. I can’t see him in 1901.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003158808/

He was born in England as a point of interest.
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Monday 11 December 17 00:52 GMT (UK)
Hi Heywood,

Not surprising that Mark Gilbert was born in England.  It was all one counry then and a trip across to Ireland from Liverpool - not such a big deal.  People went the other way as well. 

Just makes this all the more challenging.     I have not followed him up as yet - followed the two boys and got BMD's for them. Just recs for interest.  They look suspiciously like relatives - even the names.

Still chasing William  who is said to have been born at Shanbally/ Shanbally House 1844 or 1850.

Essnell
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Monday 11 December 17 06:38 GMT (UK)
I just mentioned Mark Gilbert being English to show that there is a strong possibility that the Holmes family were English, albeit that William was born in Tipperary.
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Monday 11 December 17 07:56 GMT (UK)
Hi again, 

Yes I know.    A possibility.    No one here seems to have suggested that.

See what else comes in over time. 

Have just written to two FHL centres in Ireland. Only way to get to them and that will take ages. 
Seems that this area Clogheen,has been wriggled in and out of the sections of Tipperary over time so it gets awkward knowing which to contact for what.   and because it is all pre 1864 it is not online now.

Best thing is I know a whole lot more now than when I posted ...Thanks a million.

if and or when I hear anything I'll let you know.  Still have that pm to send.

cheers Essnell












   
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Monday 11 December 17 08:00 GMT (UK)
I think it is something to bear in mind but without other supporting evidence it is difficult for you.
All good wishes
Heywood
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Wednesday 07 February 18 06:50 GMT (UK)
Hi Heywood,

Been a while since posting here.  I have contacted several archives and FHS groups in Ireland.

Firstly William is born pre 1864 and the online recs for earlier dates don't yet exist.

Secondly I'm up against it with the religious divisions of records and those between north and south as well as North and South Tipperary and County Cork - so I keep getting replies that send me off elsewhere. Latest is to go talk to one  that I  have already asked with a blank result -at least they did try before replying.

Thirdly  I am waiting on information  re Harriet Ann Holmes and Mark Gilbert.  Their grave I have traced online at Shanbally Graveyard. A Robert and Sarah Holmes are also interred in this grave - no details.

Cheers

Essnell

   
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 07 February 18 09:32 GMT (UK)
Hello again,

I have just had a read over again and can’t offer any more. I am still inclined to think that your Holmes were English and moved to Ireland.
It is worth keeping a note of until anything further is found.

Heywood
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Friday 16 February 18 04:18 GMT (UK)
HI

even if the family is or is partly english /irish or whatever.  William was married there and lived there and he is said to have been born there. If he was not then there ought to be a record in England and that also cannot be found.  If he was born in Ireland there should be an Irish record somewhere.

one of Mark Gilbert's descendants has contacted me re Harriet Ann Holmes. Still waiting on that outcome.

Essnell.
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: aghadowey on Friday 16 February 18 09:48 GMT (UK)
HI

even if the family is or is partly english /irish or whatever.  William was married there and lived there and he is said to have been born there. If he was not then there ought to be a record in England and that also cannot be found.  If he was born in Ireland there should be an Irish record somewhere.
one of Mark Gilbert's descendants has contacted me re Harriet Ann Holmes. Still waiting on that outcome.
Essnell.

No, if he was born in Ireland there may not be a record, or at least not one easily found. Civil registration of birth started in 1864. For earlier dates you need to find a baptism- not all survive and of those that do not all are online.
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Saturday 17 February 18 13:21 GMT (UK)
HI

even if the family is or is partly english /irish or whatever.  William was married there and lived there and he is said to have been born there. If he was not then there ought to be a record in England and that also cannot be found.  If he was born in Ireland there should be an Irish record somewhere.

one of Mark Gilbert's descendants has contacted me re Harriet Ann Holmes. Still waiting on that outcome.

Essnell.

I hope you find something from that descendant.
As you know the quality and quantity of Irish records varies and certainly access to Roman Catholic Records has improved very much in recent years. However, your ancestors were not R.C.
I don’t quite understand what you mean about being up against all the divisions and Clogheen ‘wriggling in and out’ etc so you might have looked here already.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lli/

You will see that Clogheen shows no information except to look at Shanrahan. That parish shows some records are available on RootsIreland, a subscription site, although you can have a one day subscription, it seems.
http://www.rootsireland.ie

I have looked at RI search for William Holmes, South Tipperary. None show for a birth of 1845 +/- 5 yrs but one shows 1855/1860. There is no indication re parish or any other details without payment so who knows!

As aghadowey says, there may be no record at all.

Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Sunday 18 February 18 00:49 GMT (UK)
Hi Heywood and Aghadowey,

thanks -----   there are relatives here somewhere who may have more info but i do not know any of them.

recently someone has found a birth Cert stuffed in an ols tin box and in bad condition for another person . an it could not be found on line at all.   

I'll keep hoping.  It is recorded in the Family bible though. so it may be accurate.


thanks - I'll leave this open...  you never know what may come up  or who may read this.

cheers Essnell.
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Sunday 18 February 18 08:11 GMT (UK)
As explained, you will not have a birth certificate if the birth is before 1864.

Do you have the birth recorded in the Family Bible? If so, I wonder why the age range is so great.

Reading your last message though, I think you are saying that you have the one stuffed in the box, which is a different person, and this is in the bible but not online.

Just to reiterate that Church of Ireland records are not as available as RC which do have parish records online.

Since you now have parents and sibling in a place you already had, you have made good progress. The only other thing I can think of is  to check the parish registers on RootsIreland just in case but that is a risk. This seems to be the research centre which you may already have tried.
http://www.tipperary.com/tipperary-south-genealogy-centre
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: hallmark on Sunday 18 February 18 08:20 GMT (UK)
As explained, you will not have a birth certificate if the birth is before 1864.

Do you have the birth recorded in the Family Bible? If so, I wonder why the age range is so great.

Reading your last message though, I think you are saying that you have the one stuffed in the box, which is a different person, and this is in the bible but not online.

Just to reiterate that Church of Ireland records are not as available as RC which do have parish records online.

Since you now have parents and sibling in a place you already had, you have made good progress. The only other thing I can think of is  to check the parish registers on RootsIreland just in case but that is a risk. This seems to be the research centre which you may already have tried.
http://www.tipperary.com/tipperary-south-genealogy-centre

Yes it is very vague....



someone has found a birth Cert stuffed in an ols tin box and in bad condition for another person . an it could not be found on line at all.   

I'll keep hoping.  It is recorded in the Family bible though. so it may be accurate.


somebody has a cert for somebody, somewhere....
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: aghadowey on Sunday 18 February 18 09:03 GMT (UK)
thanks -----   there are relatives here somewhere who may have more info but i do not know any of them.
recently someone has found a birth Cert stuffed in an ols tin box and in bad condition for another person . an it could not be found on line at all.   
I'll keep hoping.  It is recorded in the Family bible though. so it may be accurate.

If there are other relatives who may have more information then why don't you try to contact them?

If a birth certificate was issued then it was registered (unless certificate is a forgery) but may have been mis-indexed or omitted from the index but it should be possible to find the record since you already have the date, registration district, etc.
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Friday 23 February 18 02:44 GMT (UK)
Hi Everyone,

Thank you for all your help.  Just a couple of things:

I neglected to tell Heywood that  the other child called Robert Frederick Gilbert is the next generation. 
So His grandmother was Harriet Ann Gilbert. 

And:-
The old Birth Certificate in a box has nothing to do with William Holmes and his family.  It is from someone on a totally different part of this Family Research.  I said that as an example of how things can simply "turn up" from unexpected places.   Sorry to have mis-lead some of you.


As to relatives here - I have never met any of them and I only have a rough idea of where any of them are.  Some years ago a few turned up at a funeral but that is all. 

I will see if it is at all possible to find any of them.   Most would be third or fourth generations away from my quarry.

I am also looking at the link I found to a Tipperary website that looks promising.
Regards Essnell.

Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: heywood on Friday 23 February 18 08:13 GMT (UK)
 ??? I thought Robert Frederick was the son of Harriet and therefore grandson of Sarah but no matter that would not help in the search for William.

All good wishes
Heywood
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Saturday 10 March 18 02:50 GMT (UK)
No comment

topic closed.
Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: Essnell on Tuesday 17 April 18 04:33 BST (UK)
Hello everyone and all who posted here.

Firstly this has been a long subject and a number of people have done a lot of looking on my behalf, for that I am really grateful as also for any other topics I started.

This one, in particular, has produced information that has lead sideways but not really solved the issue.

I now have some clues that I have followed but I still have no real proof and no idea of how to get that. 

So...... I have rethought my avenue of research.

William Holmes is supposedly, according to mine and others info on Ancestry Public Trees, the son of  Robert Holmes and Sarah Litchfield.  No one seems to have any info on these two - at least not on-line.  This discussion has given an insight to that issue.

I cannot get a Birth Cert or Baptism as those docs were burnt in the 1922 fires.

I am now trying to find the back history of Either Robert Holmes and or Sarah Litchfield. 

This is also proving elusive. 

Now .. today I have tried to find a birth record for Sarah Litchfield.  I have a possibility. 

I have also trawled through Census recs for England, Britain, 1841 for Sarah Holmes linked to Robert Holmes and none are even close.  I therefore think that they had gone to Ireland by this time.  One would think they would have done so  around then as William was born 1844.

There is no birth record in England for him. But I will look again. 

I have also looked for them in Ireland in 1841 also without results.  This does not seem to work too well. Anyone got any ideas on searching those recs...     

Thanks for any ideas.

Essnell.

 



Title: Re: William Holmes birth in Ireland 1844 or 1850
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 13 August 18 08:16 BST (UK)
I cannot get a Birth Cert or Baptism as those docs were burnt in the 1922 fires.

No vital records (births, marriages, death) were lost in a fire or at all so not sure why you think this  :-\

However, civil registration of births started in 1864 so there are, and never were, birth certificates for anyone born before 1864. This has been explained several times in this thread.