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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: wdytya on Thursday 14 December 17 11:12 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Emma Dewis born 1838 married Joseph Lee (occ Carman) 20 Aug 1866 in Whitechapel London.
On the 1871 census is recorded a daughter Annie Lee aged 8 which would have her birth year as 1863, some 3 years before the parents marriage.
Emma remarried a Thomas Meek in 1876 and on the 1881 census Emma's daughter, Annie, is not living with them. If you take Annie's birth date of 1863 then she would be 18 or 15 if born in 1866 so could be working else where. Trouble is the name Annie Lee is a popular name so not sure how I can find her on the 1881 census or later records, any suggestions would be appreciated.
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have you looked for the birth reg of Annie Dewis in 1863-ish?
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just about to post but Pauline beat me to it. Forgot to say in my first post that I ordered two birth certificates, one for Annie MariaLee born 1863 in Bethnal Green and an Annie Lee born 1866 in Hackney. Both the wrong person Trouble is there are a few Annie Lee's born in London at this time.
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Sorry Pauline, just read your post again and the answer is no but I will now. Had not thought Annie might be illegitimate.
Thanks
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Nothing showing on F...BMD for an Annie Dewis
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a daughter Annie Lee aged 8 which would have her birth year as 1863, some 3 years before the parents marriage.
Yes illegitimate I would say *
Have to consider the possibility she may have died before the next census - have you looked for a death 1871-1881?
* having said that were either of them widowed when they married? Possible Annie came along that way and perhaps belonged to Joseph :-\
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There is an Annie Lee death in 1871 age 9 but in Mar quarter so shouldn't be her.
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Yes I just found that record but as she was on the 1871 census cannot be her in March 1871. All the other records do not match the birth date/age on 1871 census.
Both parents have recorded Batchelor and Spinster on their marriage certificate.
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It is tricky, as you say there are a few different options for Annie Lee as servants in 1881.
Doesn't seem to be a birth registration for Annie Dewis either but Annie could be a nickname or a middle name. Dewis births in London are thin on the ground around that time.
Did Emma have any more children? Maybe she didn't belong to her after all but was taken in by the family. What happens to Emma is she alive in 1911?
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Have not found any more children for Emma. After marrying Thomas Meek in 1876 there is another marriage record for a Emma Meek marrying a William Cogen (poss Cogan?) in 1896. Not sure if this is my Emma. What is also confusing is that there are several electoral register records for a Emma Sarah Meek in the right area of London. The more I search the more confused I become!!
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Yes it must be your Emma because the 1896 marriage names her father as Thomas Dewis deceased.
Emma is 40 and a widow so that would make her born c1856 which is somewhat off the mark.
William Cogan is 48 and a widower. Father William deceased.
I think William is in the workhouse and widowed prior to 1911.
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There are electoral rolls for Sarah Emma Meek beyond 1896 when your Emma is married to William Coglan so I don't think that can be her.
I agree it is very perplexing and does nothing to help find Annie Lee. I can't help wondering if she was adopted and doesn't belong to Emma at all :-\ without a birth registration or further sighting of them together we are lost :(
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Oh dear. Emma Lee is 36 when she marries in 1876 and 40 when she marries in 1896.
So she has only aged 4 years in 20 :o that is really pushing it.
Emma Sarah Dewis - if she is Emma Sarah as she always seems to be just Emma - birth is Sep 1838 mothers name Evans.
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Emma Sarah Dewis - if she is Emma Sarah as she always seems to be just Emma - birth is Sep 1838 mothers name Evans.
Baptism has her as Emma Mary Dewis
Richard
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Many thanks for your replies, Milliepede & RJKnott.As Emma was born on the 18th July 1838 she has been more than generous with her age on her last two marriages!!!
Is Emma"s last husband William Cogan or COGEN or as in your post Coglan (miss type?)
Thank you so much for confirming Emma did marry William and therefore the electoral rolls are not my Emma.
As you say that William was in the workhouse and widowed before 1911 I guess I need to find a death record for Emma from her marriage date to 1911?
I still need to find Annie and it looks to be getting more harder the further I delve.
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Just found a death for an Emma Cogan March qtr 1919 Bethnal Green 1c170 age 80. which means a birth date of 1838/39 which is correct. If this is my Emma she should be on the 1911 census and as her husband William is in the workhouse I wonder if Emma is also?
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William Cogan and Emma should be together on the 1901 census but not that I can find!!
Might be a long shot but if the 1919 death record is Emma then her daughter Annie might have registered the death?? and have a married name?? Might be worth sending for the certificate, not sure.
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Don't know if her, but there is this in 1901, no husband listed with her.
44, Driffield Road East, Bow or Stratford-Le-Bow, Poplar, London & Middlesex
Emma Coghlan Married Female 65 Vest Hand, Bow, Middlesex
Cas
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Thanks for your contribution...........if Vest Hand Bow is recorded as her birthplace then it is not her as she was born in St Mary Axe City of London
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Definitely not her - 1891 also Coghlan, living with daughter Alice and son in law George Bulled. Alice's father is a Peter Coghlan
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Yes I agree Mabel - same street 1891/1901 so not the Emma we want.
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What about looking for the address in 1901 from the 1896 wedding?
Unfortunately I can't read it very clearly - 5 Baron Street?
Marriage was St Philip Stepney
If by chance they were still there in 1901 it could help. William was a cooper in 1896.
Problem is what birth year will she be using :-\
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There's a William Coggin b c1843 in the workhouse in 1904. says married, RC, no home. admitted 9 Oct 1904, leaves at own request 25 November, readmitted 26 November.
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Ah found another possibility for William Coggin - occupation matches more this time and he is married not widowed. Still in the workhouse though, possibly the same person Mable found in 1904.
Is there a cooper like occupation listed for him?
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Emma Mary Dewis bapt 2/9/1838 st Andrew undershaft parents Thomas And Elizabeth occ chimney sweep.
Jennifer
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Ah found another possibility for William Coggin - occupation matches more this time and he is married not widowed. Still in the workhouse though, possibly the same person Mable found in 1904.
Is there a cooper like occupation listed for him?
No info at all about occupation, sadly
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have found the record of the examination of the chap admitted in 1904. Wife left him 12 weeks previously, had been wandering the streets. Previous address 5 Blakesley St for 4 yrs. No children
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William Cogan wasn't always a cooper which makes finding him harder. these may all be him:
1865: William Cogan, 19, cooper, s William, cooper m Sarah Butler
1871: William Cogan, 26, cooper + Sarah, 25; Sarah, 6; William, 2; Edward, 6m
1881: William, 34, widower, dock labourer, b Spitalfields + dau, Sarah, 15 (his three other children, William, 14, Edward, 12, Elizabeth, 10 are in the MEOT workhouse school)
1891: William Cogan, 47, gen lab, b Spitalfields + 'wife', Eliza, 48
1894: William Cogan, cooper, s William, bricklayer m Eliza Dales (nee Bolland)
He appears to be unlucky with his marriages (or bigamous!).
Richard
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Thanks for all the info on William Cogan, seems to have had a few wives!!
Have found a marriage for an Annie Lee marrying a William J Haxell sept qtr 1889 in Edmonton 3a 358. On the 1901 census they can be found living in Ipswich and their eldest daughter is named Emma, possibly after Annie’s mother Emma Dewis (Lee,Meek,Cogan).
On the census Annie is recorded as born London.
Do you think I am on the right track?
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The 1889 marriage is Aug 6th
Annie Maria Lee 20 add 20 Beaconsfield Road Edmonton father Alfred Lee carter
witnesses are Alfred Lee and Ellen Lee
Bit young to be your Annie do you think? Unless like her mother she aged less than most of us!
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In 1871 she is age 1 born Shoreditch with father Alfred 28 and mother Eliza 28 so I think not the Annie we are looking for (also with parents in 1881)
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There are a few Annie Lee marriages in London and they have fathers names but Annie could have made up a fathers name anyway so :-\
Can only think to check the address from the 1896 marriage for Emma on the 1901 census - maybe someone can read it better than I can and are skilled at finding addresses.
Or follow up the servants called Annie Lee in 1881 to see what happens to them.
Can't say we aren't giving it a good go ;D
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I agree that this Annie Maria is not my Annie, her father was Joseph.
I think the address on the 1896 marriage is Barons Street Stepney. Of all the marriages for Annie have you found a marriage for an Annie Lee with a father named Joseph?
You are all giving this search a good go and I really appreciate all the help you are giving me
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Looks like William Cogan was not a bigamist when he married Emma as there is a death record for an Eliza Cogen (with an e) age 51 in Dec 1895
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Of all the marriages for Annie have you found a marriage for an Annie Lee with a father named Joseph?
Not apart from the one we have ruled out.
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Failing miserably at finding the address :-[
There is/was a Baron St in Holborn Middlesex - is that Stepney area, sorry I don't know London much.
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I think it is 5 Bacon Street.
Jennifer
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There's a Bacon Street in Bethnal Green in 1911.
Supposedly William H Whitstock beer house keeper and sister Bertha at no 1 in 1901 (per Bethnal Green pub history) but can't find anyone under that name.
The Ship 6-7 Bacon Street Bethnal Green 1895 William Rugg
can't find him either :-\
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Just checked on my old S&N disc for 5 Bacon street 1901 (showing my age) and the families there were James Edwards, Alfred Hicky and Alfred Greeno.
Jennifer ;)
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Oh that's no good then but well done for finding the address.
Kind of stuck now :(
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If the William Coggin in the workhouse (1904) is the William Cogan married to Emma then she would be the wife that left him 12 weeks prior to his admission to the workhouse. For the previous 4years William was living at 5 Blakesley Street which I think is in Stepney.
Is it possible the 1901 census can be searched by address rather then name to see if William and Emma are living there or can you only search by name?
As a Christmas pressie can I also have Annie living with them!!
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Is it possible the 1901 census can be searched by address
Leads to
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9DX-JDK
St George in the East
piece 312 folio 111 page 25
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Thanks for the 1901 census record. Not sure it is the person I am looking for. When I saw it was Anne I first thought of Emma’s daughter Annie but alas no. Although the birth date is in the right timeframe the birthplace is wrong.
Is the address in Blakesley Street number 5?
Is anyone living in the house with Anne Logan?
Perhaps it is William Cogan sister living in the same street?
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It is 5 Blakesley Street - Anne Cogan 60 widow is on her own but looks like she has one room in the house.
The other occupants being Hannah Peters 60 widow and son James 30 who have 3 rooms.
Both born Islington.
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Looks like the William in the Workhouse is not mine given, I presume, that his wife is Anne a Widow (not EMMA) living in the correct address in 1901 which is on the admissions record of the Workhouse. :'(
Back to the drawing board!!
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She wouldn't be a widow in 1901 though would she? William is still alive after that (if this Ann was his wife) It's all disheartening :'(
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You are correct when you say she would not be a Widow in 1901 as William is still alive.
This line of enquiry is proving as hard as that of finding Annie Lee where it all started. They are out there somewhere and I am hopeful that in due course they will be found.
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I've been looking for a chap for 10 years but can't quite give up the search. As you say they are out there somewhere.
Can I ask what relation Emma/Annie are to yourself? If Emma didn't have any children from her marriages I guess you aren't directly descended from her :)
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I am descended from her older brother Christopher. I have found the other two siblings families but Emma and Annie are my brickwall. I am hoping that Emma is the mother of Annie and that Annie married and there are a long line of family members.
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I see thanks. I don't suppose Christopher or the other siblings had a witness at their wedding called Annie something? That would be a gem to follow up.
No silly suggestion the marriages would be too early for Annie :-[
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Haven't tried this myself but is it possible to order a birth stipulating the mothers name must be Emma or do you have to stipulate a fathers name? Someone will know.
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Haven't tried this myself but is it possible to order a birth stipulating the mothers name must be Emma or do you have to stipulate a fathers name? Someone will know.
Anybody know the answer to this question.
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If you want to order a certificate without a GRO reference, they say you can ask for a search
You are required to supply
1. Surname at birth
2. Forename(s)
3. Date of birth (dd/mm/yyyy)
"If you do not know the exact date enter 01/01/xxxx, we will search the specified year and one either side"
4. Place of birth
You then have the option of filling in other specifications
Father’s/Parent’s surname
Father’s/Parent’s forename(s)
Mother's maiden surname
Mother's surname at time of the birth
Mother's forename(s)
So you shouldn't have to give the name of a father, no.
John
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Many thanks for the information. Given her parents were married in 1866 but on the census she is 8 so born 1863 I will have to order two certificates.
As I know her fathers name, but searching for her with a mother named Emma, should I include the fathers name or leave it out?
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Hi
I would leave it out if you are not sure that it is going to be Joseph Lee.
If you have identified some birth possibilities, remember that you can see the mother's maiden name on the new GRO index (on their website)
John
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Thanks for the advice
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Having looked on the new GRO index I cannot find a birth record for Annie Lee with a mother’s maiden name of Dewis. So not sure if to proceed to order birth certificates given the 1871 census age of 8 born 1863 whilst parents married in 1866, I have the marriage certificate.
I am starting to think that Annie was the daughter of Joseph but Emma Dewis was not her mother!
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Hi
I am at a loss over Annie and who she might have been. As she wasn't at home in 1881 it was impossible to pin her down.
But if you are itching to get a certificate, or rather one of the £6 register copies you can get at the moment, there is that possible death of Emma you found in Bethnal Green.
Because her later whereabouts is also a big mystery!
John
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I wondered too if Emma wasn't her mother and she was possibly "adopted" by the Lee couple because Emma far as we know didn't have any (or any more if Annie was hers) children.
The logical first assumption is that she was Annie Dewis born whilst Emma was unmarried but as there are no births registered in that name ???
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Hi
I am at a loss over Annie and who she might have been. As she wasn't at home in 1881 it was impossible to pin her down.
But if you are itching to get a certificate, or rather one of the £6 register copies you can get at the moment, there is that possible death of Emma you found in Bethnal Green.
Because her later whereabouts is also a big mystery!
John
Death certificate has arrived but I think it does not take us further forward in the search for Annie. I was hoping the person registering the death was Annie with possibly a married name. The informant though is her niece but cannot read her surname but the initial of her first name is R.
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It's "R Churches"
15 Spring Gardens
King Edward Street
Whitechapel
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Thanks Pauline for reading the name. The name R Churches is not known to me and of all her nephews and nieces I have found for Emma on her side of the family none of them has a first name beginning with R.
Either R Churches is a married name or she must be from Emma's husbands side of the family which I have no record of.
Why could it not have been ANNIE Churches and my search would have had another clue as to whether she married.
I think I might have to park this one up for the time being as my stress levels are rising!!
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1919 electoral register
Hamlet of Mile End New Town
15 Spring Gardens
Edward Churches
Rachael Churches
In 1901, a possibility in Bethnal Green
piece 286 folio 116 page 44
19 Princes(s) Court
Edward Church Head 37 Laborer in Fruit Market
Rachael Church Wife 38 Charwoman
both born Whitechapel
1911 free index, I think may be at same address
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWGB-D6Z
Emma doesn't appear to be listed at 8 James Street, Bethnal Green in 1918. The electoral register has William Wallis Mucanner and Mary Ann Mucanner at that address.
Their name might really be Buchanan.
John
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Thanks Jon for the interesting information you have found. I will try and find the marriage record for Edward Churches to determine Rachel’s maiden name which hopefully will give me a clue as to where she fits into the family
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Hi
I don't know if there's a marriage of Edward and Rachel (or Rachael, even). Let's hope so.
But I think Rachel may still be Emma's niece by marriage! If you have a look for her in 1891 you should find her!
John
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I can't find a marriage.
What name is Rachel under in 1891?
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Dewis.
I am hoping this is her
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:312D-VMM
Married to Christopher
John
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yes a Rachel Bennett married a Christopher Dewis in 1887, ( Christopher was a nephew of Emma) it appears he is not on the 1891 census at home with his family. I believe he died 1893. so if this is the Rachel Churches who recorded Emmas death then she would have had to be married between 1893 when her husband died and 1919 when she registered the death. Have looked for a marriage record but there appears not to be one unless recorded under a mis spelt name?
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Can't see a marriage either
Rachel is in the Spitalfields workhouse in 1888 with newborn Isaac. Record describes her religion as "hebrew"
There's a further child Sarah b 1893
I can;t find any Churches children with mmn Bennett, so guess the children referred to in 1911 are the Dewis offspring
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Mabel, is the Rachel in the Workhouse in 1888 a surname Dewis or Churches? I am surprised her religion is listed as Hebrew as in 1887 she married Christopher Dewis in a London Church in England church.
what are the names of the children you refer to in 1911 as I believe by 1911 3 of the 4 children I have for her have died.
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The workhouse entry is under Dewis and it does say wife of Christopher.
Cause of admission labour.
Hebrew for Rachel and for Isaac.
If I recall 4 children had died by 1911 but no names are given.
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Cross checking birth surnames Dewis to Bennett there are the following in Whitechapel
Elizabeth Jun 1885
Isaac Jun 1888
Sarah Mar 1893
Thomas Philip Dec 1889 in St Geo East
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Is this the death for Christopher Dewis
Sep 1893 Whitechapel age 33
Per the marriage to Rachel his father was Thomas. Hers was Solomon. Both fathers deceased.
One of the witnesses is Annie - too much to hope it was the missing Annie - her surname is something like Kitelberg.
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Dewis deaths in Whitechapel to cross reference
Thomas Philip Jun 1891 age 1 **
Alfred Jun 1892 age 4
Jenny Sep 1900 age 2
Sarah Sep 1893 age 0
** baptism record shows parents Christopher and Rachel
Have to double check but there was a married Christopher in 1891 with a couple of boarders but not Rachel. I know Christopher and Rachel were found earlier in 1891 so this one might be the one that died (he was 30 in 1891)
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Christopher and Rachel are actually together at 13 Grey Eagle Street in 1891.
The census pages are out of order!
In piece 273 folio 46 page 32
Schedule number is 217
(last name on page)
Christopher Dewis 30 Market Porter
next is a page out of order
folio 47 page 33
Rachel and the children
followed by schedule 218 (15 Grey Eagle Street)
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Aah I did not see them - well done!
So that confirms 3 of the children as Elizabeth - Alfred - Thomas P
If there were only 4 mentioned in 1911 we have too many with Isaac - Sarah making 5.
Trouble is the "marriage" by 1911 wasn't with Christopher so technically they shouldn't have been counted anyway. Who knows which 4 children they were talking about :-\
On a lighter note can anyone read the name of Annie the witness to Christopher/Rachel marriage just in case it turns out to be Annie Lee. Very long shot I know but no stone unturned etc
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Another problem birth for Alfred Dewis Jun 1889 Shoreditch has mothers maiden name Friend.
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Elizabeth is on a school admission register date of birth 3 May 1885 father Christopher.
So she was born before they married.
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Gosh lots of replies and though we seemed to have veered away from Annie it could well be the information you have found might be the lead we have been looking for with the witness at the marriage of Christopher and Rachel being named Annie, I could kick myself as I have their marriage certificate. The witness is an Annie EITELBERG and given Annie was recorded as 8 years old on the census record (b 1863) this would mean if this is our Annie she would have been 24 at the time so possible. The search goes on for the marriage record for Annie Lee (Eitelberg).
On the other points found I believe Christopher died in 1893 as all the other Christopher Dewis's I have found died later. Alfred Dewis whose mother is Friend is another branch of the family so can be disregarded. Elizabeth born before parents marriage would have been frowned upon especially in the Jewish community, perhaps she was ostracised and so married in a church of england church to a protestant.You mention 4 children in 1911 I have Sarah 1993-1993, Elizabeth 1886, Alfred 1889-1892, Thomas 1890-1891 and of course the one I did not have Issac. If there is a 1911 census record for Rachel is she still recorded as Dewis? if so then her marriage to Mr Churches would be after that date.
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Rebecca was a Church(es) on 1901 and 1911
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many thanks, I will continue to try and find a marriage record