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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Brutushedge on Thursday 28 December 17 20:12 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help with this?
Elizabeth Fleete married William J Wells, Dec 22 1872. Yarmouth, Norfolk. Father listed as William Fleete.
1881 census: Elizabeth Wells and William Wells, reg. Caistor. Elizabeth born abt. 1844, Yarmouth.
1891 census: Elizabeth Wells and William Wells, reg. Grimsby, Lincs. Elizabeth born 1844, Yarmouth.
1901 census: Elizabeth Wells and William Wells, reg. Grimsby. Elizabeth born abt. 1841, Yarmouth.
1911 census: Elizabeth Wells and William Wells, reg. Grimsby. Lincs. Elizabeth born abt. 1840, Yarmouth.
I am trying to find more about Elizabeth's parents and possible siblings. I can't find a record of her birth, nor any sign of her on the 1851/61 or 71 censuses. Any help greatly appreciated.
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The ages are rather variable,as are the transcriptions,,but this series looks worth investigating:-
1841 HO107/793/6/17/27
1851 HO107/1806/584/11
1861 RG09/1191/57/13
1871 RG10/1785/65/27
Regards
Roger
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1851 HO107/1806/584/11
This appears on page 12 on my Ancestry, and gives her as daughter Eliza as 9months, so not even alive in 1841? (Parents 23 and 22)
She appears as Elizth Fleet born 1837, niece in 1861 - aunt could be mistaken as to age, I suppose.
Born 1836 and a grand daughter in 1871.
Lied about her age since marriage because a lot older than her husband?
What was her Father's occupation from the marriage certificate?
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1851 HO107/1806/584/11
This appears on page 12 on my Ancestry, and gives her as daughter Eliza as 9months, so not even alive in 1841? (Parents 23 and 22)
This one I think was born and baptised as Eliza Elizabeth Fleet in 1850 and married to Isaac Minns in 1870 Yarmouth. Traceable as Minns in the censuses thereafter.
Parents were William Benjamin Fleet and Eliza Sarah Goffin, marr 1847 Yarmouth.
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Elizabeth Fleete claimed to be 29 on marriage in December 1872.
Residence: Row 121 (same as the bridegroom).
Father: William Fleete, labourer.
Witnesses: Benjamin Wells, Maria Moughton.
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The 1841 census specified is the link of William Fleet, age 15, possible father of Elizabeth, to the Ellis family, grandparents or other relatives to Elizabeth, I think. So Elizabeth born when?
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It's odd, because the William Fleet with the Ellis connection (poss born to Martha before her marriage to Henry Ellis) does look likely to be the William Benjamin Fleet (basketmaker) who married Eliza Sarah Goffin in 1847 and had a daughter Eliza in 1850.
So was Elizabeth a pre-marital baby for one or other of them? I can't see a suitable birth as Elizabeth Goffin.
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William Benjamin Fleet (baseborn) was baptised as a son of Martha Fleet in Great Yarmouth, 13 Feb 1827.
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Just to stop others repeating work, the proposed Martha Fleet/Ellis is in censuses:
in 1841
Henry and Martha Ellis, both aged 50, he is a wheelwright, living in Row 29 in Great Yarmouth with William Fleet, apprentice basket maker, all local.
In 1851 Martha Ellis is widowed living on her own.
In 1861 Martha has Elizabeth living with her as niece age 24.
In 1871 Martha is grandmother and Elizabeth is age 35, living at 19, Row 120.
Then on the marriage in 1872 the bride and groom are both from Row 121.
Living on Row 121 in 1871, at dwelling 12 is Martha Fleet, 23, Fisherman's wife, Martha Fleet,5, James Fleet, 10 months, and William Wells, 26, boarder, fisherman.
Think Martha is wife of this possible marriage:
Marriages December quarter 1867
James Fleet Yarmouth
Martha Wells Yarmouth
and Martha born before marriage as Martha Harriett Fleet Wells in 1866
Added:
James Fleet's Father is also a James Fleet (according to marriage information), and James junior born about 1846, so possible cousins to other Fleets, but not brother. James junior at sea in 1871, and also naval reserve.
Added: Cannot see a birth for him, or in a census before his marriage, so possibly his parents had a late marriage.
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Doing too many adds, so in regards to James Fleet, looks like this birth is likely?
James Fleet Nott, mmn Fleet, born in September quarter 1847 in Great Yarmouth
Family also as Knott and Knotts because this looks like a sister:
Maria Fleet Knotts mmn Fleet born December quarter 1845 in Great Yarmouth.
Parents born about 1816 (William) and 1811 (Martha) according to 1851, and eldest sister in 1837.
Which makes his Father William NOT James. Oh, well.....
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Just putting James Nott's proposed family in 1851
William Knott 35
Martha Knott 40
Elizabeth Knott 14
Robert Knott 10
Maria Knott 6
xxxxJames Knott 4
so Martha born about 1811 and daughter Elizabeth born about 1837.
I cannot read the actual image on 1841, as too faint on my computer, so Ancestry has (and I do not know how the actual households are arranged) as an interesting possibility
Margt Spiak 60
Susan 25
Elizth 1
Will
xxxxMartha Ellis 30
xxxxElizth 30
xxxxElizth 4
xxxxRobe Ellis 3 Mo
So is that Elizabeth Fleete?
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I seem to have opened a real can of worms here. Thank you all so much for the work so far. My only consolation at this point is that even experts such as yourselves are having difficulty unraveling this one...
One thing I can add at this point is that the Martha Fleet, age 23, pointed out by chempat on the 1871 census, and marrying James Fleet in Dec 1867, is (as far as I can tell) Martha Wells, the sister of William J Wells, he being the husband of the Elizabeth Fleete I am searching for (see their marriage in Dec 1872 on my first post).
I am also presuming that the Fleete/Fleet spelling is a red herring here?
Any more contributions or clarifying of this thread greatly welcome, and thanks again for all the info so far.
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Witness at the 1872 Marriage was Maria Moughton.
Maria FLEETE age 23, abode Row 24, no Father named, married Benjamin MOUGHTON, 27 Dec 1869, St Nicholas
Elizabeth Fleete was a witness
Cant find Maria in 1871 but Benjamin Moulton is on a Vessel.
1881 Maria Moughton born 1845 - Yarmouth, Norfolk is a Widow.
So fits with this;
William Knott, 35
Martha Knott, 40
Elizabeth Knott, 14****
Robert Knott, 10
Maria Knott, 6****
James Knott, 4
As found by chenpat;
Maria Fleet Knotts mmn Fleet born December quarter 1845 in Great Yarmouth.
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I hope this all makes sense later!
MARTHA Fleet, Widow*, married Henry ELLIS, Bachelor, 30 May 1815 St Nicholas
She was likely Martha BERREY* who married Benjamin FLEET 11 Mar 1810 St Nicholas
He was buried 04 Aug 1812 age 22, husband of (not named)
Benjamin/Martha only seem to have had 1 child;
MARTHA Fleet bapt 15 Jun 1810 (birth 13 June 1810) Father Benjamin Fleet/Mother is Martha Barry*
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This could be the baptism of Martha Fleet/(Ellis)/Knott
Martha Fleet baptised on 15th June 1810 (born 13 June 1810) at St Nicholas Great Yarmouth to Benjamin Fleet and Martha Barry
Martha Barry (born round 1790, we hope) is the proposed grandmother of Elizabeth Fleet, showing as Martha Ellis in 1871.
So if Martha Fleet born 1810, father dies, Martha (1790) ex-Barry married Benjamin Fleet then Mr Ellis, children take his (Ellis) surname for some of the time, and use Fleet also.
Martha Fleet (1810) uses Ellis some of time, and possibly marries Mr Knott/Nott/Knotts and uses maiden name of Fleet on some of the birth registrations.
So your Elizabeth is showing as Elizabeth Ellis in 1841 census, but if her Mother (born Martha Fleet) was not married and was only using the Ellis surname because she had been brought up as Ellis, Elizabeth's real surname is Fleet.
Suggest a pencil and paper to draw out some possible trees and multiple names.
Added:
Good, trish.
I was working through from a slightly different angle and got the same conclusions.
So posted even though I knew something else had come up.
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Made a mistake and deleted.
Yes it seems to add up to me also chempat :)
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Blimey this is a headspinner. Great work!
The thinking is supported by the child Robert "Ellis", 3 months old in 1841 in Martha "Ellis"'s household, in fact being baptised as Robert Noll* Fleet, son of Martha, at Great Yarmouth on 21 Apr 1841.
*Middle name may in fact be Nott, perhaps indicating his paternity.
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Thanks trish1120 and chempat.
I have indeed resorted to pen and paper to try and sort it all out!!
Brilliant stuff from you both, though!
Wish me luck....
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Quote;
Blimey this is a headspinner.
I agree :D ;D
1841 Census
Row 29
Great Yarmouth
Henry Ellis, 50, Wheelwright
Martha Ellis, 50
William Fleet, 15, Basket Maker Apprentice***
So looks like William Benjamin Fleet is with his Grandmother, Martha Fleet/Ellis nee Barry;
WILLIAM BENJAMIN Fleet
christened 13 February 1827, Yarmouth, Norfolk
(F/S.Org)
Henry ELLIS was buried 18 May 1843 age 54
(FreeREG)
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trish,
Maria is Maria Moulton in 1871, living at 16, Row 120, whilst Martha Ellis (82) and Elizabeth Fleet (35) are at 19, Row 20,( as found previously).
Added:
The 1841 census etc has been found on page 1 - it just confirms what we have all found, I would say.
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I'm not sure whether it is relevant,but are there two different Martha Fleet(s),both born to a Benjamin Fleet in 1809/1810?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l7w/
Regards
Roger
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I had seen both, but we were following the Martha link, as did not know what the Father was called.
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Thanks again to you all for all the information on this topic. After several hours and lots of paper, I think I have it sorted! Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the information I now have:
Benjamin Fleet (possibly Benjamin Tulfer Fleet??) b. 1796, married Martha Berry/Berry/ Barry b. 1790, in Great Yarmouth on March 11, 1810.
Their daughter Martha Fleet is born June 13, 1810, Great Yarmouth. She seems to be their only child.
Benjamin Fleet dies August 4, 1812 Great Yarmouth.
His wife Martha Fleet (nee Berry/Barry) remarries to Henry Ellis (1790-1843) on May 30, 1815. Unclear as yet when this Martha (b.1790) dies, but she is still alive in 1871, living with her granddaughter Elizabeth in Great Yarmouth, 19, row 120.
So far so good. Now it gets complicated:
The daughter Martha Fleet (b. 1810) seems to have had 4 children:
1) William Benjamin Fleet (base born, 1827, Great Yarmouth). Father unclear. He marries Eliza Sarah Goffin in 1847 (do I have this relationship right??).
2) Robert Nott Fleet (b.1841, Great Yarmouth). Registered as possibly Robert Noll Fleet, but mother Martha in 1851 is living with William Knott, in Great Yarmouth, so paternity may be suggested.
3) Elizabeth Fleet(e) (1844-1933). Probably using the name Fleet still as her mother is unmarried, so she is technically still a Fleet. In 1841 she is probably recorded in Great Yarmouth as Elizabeth Ellis. Her mother Martha (b. 1810) seems to have adopted her stepfather Henry Ellis' name for herself and children. HOWEVER, in 1851 Great Yarmouth, Elizabeth Fleet is now recorded as Elizabeth Knott, presumably assuming the name of the man (William Knott) her mother is living with.
4) Maria Fleet/Nott (b.1846). Paternity may again be suggested by William Knott, and Maria is registered in Yarmouth in 1851 as Maria Knott. This Maria marries Benjamin Moughton in Great Yarmouth in 1869, and using her married name is a witness at her sister Elizabeth's wedding to William James Wells in Great Yarmouth on Dec 22, 1872.
Paternity for all 4 children is only suggested, and I can find no record for Martha Fleet (b. 1810) marrying William Knott/Nott, or indeed anyone else that may give further clues. Birth certificates that I can see only list mother Martha Fleet's name (am I wrong??)
The thing that really confused me was that when Elizabeth Fleet(e) married William James Wells in 1872, she gave her father's name as William Fleete. Initially I thought this was William Benjamin Fleet, but he it seems was her brother (or am I mistaken??). Could it be that Elizabeth Fleet(e) just said her father's name was William (meaning her "stepfather" William Ellis) and it was naturally recorded as William Fleete? Or perhaps she just invented the name to avoid showing unknown paternity?
Huge thanks again to you all for your help with this 'mind bender'. If there is anything else you can add, or I have made some mistakes, please feel free to comment.
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I.m attempting to follow
Surely this summarraises the question Martha is unlikely to have had one base born son in 1827
Followed by 3 children in the 1840.'s with the Nott Fleet surname it's a big gap
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brigidmac,
William Benjamin Fleet born 1827 (Mother age 17), then Elizabeth Fleet born 1837, possibly others who died, or one 'mistake in 1827, and then a new relationship. (It happens nowadays)
Brutushedge
I have Elizabeth Fleet as born 1837 as she shows in 1841 in the census that I cannot read.
If William Knott was her Father, but parents not married, at Elizabeth's marriage she can say William is her Father without specifying his surname.
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I am trying to piece together the data as you have done,but appear to have a diferent view from the start,I'm afraid.I started by trying to resolve the Benjamin Fleet(s) by looking at the burial records on FreeReg.
The earliest born one of relevance is given as dying in 1833 aged 68 i.e. approx 1765-1833
It seems likely that he marries Mary Raven(s) in Nov 1790
They have a son Benjamin born Jan 1891,who probably dies in Aug 1812(Quite possibly the one who marries Martha Berry)
The same couple Benjamin Fleet/Mary Raven(s) have a "replacement" Benjamin(Tulfer?) Fleet,born later in 1812 (therefore approx.21 years after the first!).He is equally short lived,dying in 1832.
Mary Fleet nee Raven(s) dies in 1856 aged 85.(1771-1856)
She can be seen in the 1841 census as Mary Flett,probably with a Sarah Ames(the same surname as a wedding witness somewhere?).Same applies to the 1851 census.
Enough for now!
Regards
Roger
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Thanks for more on this.
Chempat, yes the 1837 date for Elizabeth Fleete makes more sense. I have the 1844 date from the 1881/91 censuses, but interesting that she gets older in 1901 and 1911. I think I originally was doubtful of the 1837 date when I was somehow following the idea that William Benjamin Fleet was her father, rather than her brother.
Brigidmac, it is very tricky to untangle it all, and I too initially had reservations about that long gap. But with the new date of 1837 from chempat, I am inclined to agree with the idea of an early mistake, followed by either other unsuccessful attempts or just waiting for the right relationship.
Roger @ despair that is very interesting. I have always been working from the most recent people backwards, as I was only certain of the Elizabeth Fleete/William J Wells marriage connection. I will work through the info you have, as it may well give that branch of my family another generation.
Any more leads greatly appreciated!