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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: hilarykellis on Friday 29 December 17 19:31 GMT (UK)
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I am looking over my tree and just found something really confusing that I had never paid attention to before.
I realized I have an 1871 census record saved to my ancestor Elizabeth (Hussey) Rogers that contradicts the record saved to her husband, John Rogers. On the 1871 census for John, (Registration district Wrexham, Sub-registration district Ruabon, Household schedule number 123, Piece 5653, Folio 89, Page number 21) he is the head of household, a widower, and his son Charles and his family (wife Jane and children) are living with him. I am confident that this is my John because I know he was a shoemaker and I know that this is his son, Charles, who was also a shoemaker. The birth year of abt 1797 is consistent.
However, I then find Elizabeth Rogers, John's wife (?) living in Wrexham and keeping a shoe shop. The birth year is consistent although the birthplace says Ruabon rather than Wrexham. Elizabeth also says she is a widow. Her grandson Charles is living with her and I believe this is Charles Jr., son of my ancestor Charles Rogers mentioned above. This Charles's birth year is given as abt 1857 and the real Charles's birth date is 1859. (Census Household schedule number 2, Piece 5657, Folio 104, Page number 1).
Who is this Elizabeth? Is she just a different Elizabeth entirely, who happens to own a shoe shop and have a child and grandchild with a similar name and birth year?
Any help unravelling this is appreciated!!
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Hi
The names are not uncommon in our area.
I see that there is a son William, 29, shoemaker, b. Wrexham, living with Elizabeth in 1871. Did the couple have a son b.c. 1842?
Gadget
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It wasn't uncommon around that time when a couple split that each referred to themselves as widow or widower - have come across it many, many times
Sandra
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Is this the family in 1851:
In 1851, when William would have been, 9, the family are at The Walks, Wrexham
John 54, shoemaker, b. Wrexham
Elizabeth, 56, b. Wrexham
Edward, s, 22, ag lab, b -do-
Ann, d, 11, b. -do-
HO107/2503/572/23
Gadget
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William's birth might not have been registered but there is no William registered in the Wrexham RD in 1840-1842 with MMN Hussey.
Also no baptisms that I can see. I'll have a look around some of my records.
Gadget
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In 1861, Elizabeth and John's address in 8 Walks, Wrexham.
There is a burial in Wrexham for an Elizabeth Rogers, aged 70. Address is The Walks. 28th January 1865.
I think that this might be your Elizabeth.
Gadget
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In 1861, Elizabeth and John's address in 8 Walks, Wrexham.
There is a burial in Wrexham for an Elizabeth Rogers, aged 70. Address is The Walks. 28th January 1865.
I think that this might be your Elizabeth.
Gadget
Thank you, Gadget, I just had the registration index record saved, and hadn't seen the parish record, so I didn't know Elizabeth's address. I agree that that must be her. I am thinking that this other Elizabeth must be the widow of one of Elizabeth's brothers-in-law - the Rogers men were all shoemakers.
It was Elizabeth Rogers, Charles's daughter, who married my ancestor Joseph Ellis and gave me my surname.
Thanks for eliminating the confusion!!
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You're very welcome, Hilary. I grew up in the area and know the confusion that the limited range of surnames causes.
If you need any more help for there just give a shout - I've got lots of bits and pieces of paper info :)
I have ancestral Ellis cousins there - not sure if they're your Ellises though.
Gadget
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Potentially widow of William Rogers? I see the address for Elizabeth in 1871 was Yorke St - I;ve found this item from the papers referring to William Rogers, shoemaker, of that address, with wife Elizabeth and son William, also a shoe maker
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4578358/4578361/21/
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Well done, Mabel. That's confirmation :)
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Potentially widow of William Rogers? I see the address for Elizabeth in 1871 was Yorke St - I;ve found this item from the papers referring to William Rogers, shoemaker, of that address, with wife Elizabeth and son William, also a shoe maker
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4578358/4578361/21/
Wow, Mabel, thanks!! The article itself is very sad and interesting. I need to look in my tree and figure out who William Rogers is, if he's anybody.
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Who were John's parents, Hilary?
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Potentially widow of William Rogers? I see the address for Elizabeth in 1871 was Yorke St - I;ve found this item from the papers referring to William Rogers, shoemaker, of that address, with wife Elizabeth and son William, also a shoe maker
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4578358/4578361/21/
Great find Mabel ;D
Sandra
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Who were John's parents, Hilary?
That's a great question, Gadget - they haven't been positively identified, but I am pretty sure they were Charles Rogers and Mary Thomas. Charles Rogers's father was also a shoemaker named Charles and married a Hester Jones. This Charles (b. 1749 d. 1806) left a will and mentions his son Charles (b. 1773, Minera) Rogers who has died and has three children.
Charles Rogers married Mary Thomas in 1794 in Wrexham, and a witness was Robert Rogers. Robert Rogers was the name of one of the sons of Charles Rogers and Hester Jones mentioned in the 1806 will, so this was the clincher for me that Robert and Charles Jr were brothers and children to Charles Rogers and Hester.
Problem is I have not found a baptism for John (b. circa 1797 in Wrexham) and I don't know the names of the other two children that Charles Sr. mentioned as being grandchildren via Charles Jr. in his will.
Hope that wasn't too tricky to follow. Maybe this William that Mabel has found more info about is John's brother?
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There are baptisms in Ruabon but not sure if these are your Charles and Mary.
7 June 1795 Edward and Ann twins of Charles and Mary
9 Dec 1797 Mary d of Charles and Mary
both of Christionedd Kenrig (various spellings!)
I've been reading the will to see if there is any mention of the names of the grandchildren but nothing. I see that he refers to a Peter Jones, son of his wife Esther.
Nothing in the newspapers about this 1806 death and no will for his son Charles 1797-1806.
Will look again tomorrow.
Gadget
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There are baptisms in Ruabon but not sure if these are your Chrles and Mary.
7 June 1795 Edward and Ann twins of Charles and Mary
9 Dec 1797 Mary d of Charles and Mary
both of Christionedd Kenrig (various spellings!)
I've been reading the will to see if there is any mention of the names of the grandchildren but nothing. I see that he refers to a Peter Jones, son of his wife Esther.
Nothing in the newspapers about this 1806 death and no will for his son Charles 1797-1806.
Will look again tomorrow.
Gadget
Thanks so much Gadget - was there an occupation mentioned for this Charles? I think my suspected man was a shoemaker like his father and son.
EDIT: Wanted to add, I got to visit Ruabon, Pen y Cae, etc. a few years ago - my Ellis cousins are still living in the area and my dad's grandfather (the emigrant to Canada) returned home frequently. My cousins showed us around and I visited the churches. If you still live there, maybe you even know them - but I don't want to post their names here publicly.
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No, Hilary. It was a bit early for occupations to be listed consistently.. I'll look some more tomorrow. I'm a bit iffy about whether William is a relative of John's though. There are many Rogers families in the area but Charles is less 'common'.
Gadget
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Watching the cricket (sunny in Melbourne) and just checking things. I see that John and son Charles were in Issa Street ( Stryt isa, Rhosllanerchrugog) on the 1871*.
There is a burial for John Rogers of Stryt Isa, Rhos on 5th July 1871. He's recorded as aged 75 which puts him a bit older-b.c. 1796
* aged 74
Gadget
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As you probably know, the 1841 census is missing for most of the wider Wrexham area. However, a while ago, transcripts for the two Wrexham districts were discovered inside a book in a second hand bookshop in Wrexham (or something like that). Clwyd FHS, produced a booklet of these. These were just by address with no refs. I remembered that I had a copy, so just for extra info:
Here are John and Elizabeth:
The Walks, Wrexham Abbott
John Rogers, 40, Shoemaker journeyman
Elizabeth, 45
Charles, 21
Vere. 19
Rebecca, 15
Edward, 12
Mary, 5
Ann, 2
All born county
and William and Elizabeth
Beast Market, Wrexham Regis
William Rogers, 40, shoemaker
Elizabeth, 40
Henry, 15, Ap Shoemaker
Ann, 14
Mary, 12
Edwin, 5
James, 3
William, 3 weeks
All born county
Gadget
(back to cricket :) )
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Lunch break!
Marriage of William and Elizabeth:
Wrexham
24 January 1822 William Rogers, a shoemaker and a bachelor and Elizabeth Davies, a spinster . Both otp. Witnesses- David Jones and Mary Jones
Gadget
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The only John Rogers/Elizabeth Hussey marriage that I can find is in Eccles, Lancs, 19 July 1819.
Unfortunatley, it's a transcription so no other info!
Son, Charles, bpt Wrexham 23 April 1820, which might add up.
Gadget
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The only John Rogers/Elizabeth Hussey marriage that I can find is in Eccles, Lancs, 19 July 1819.
Unfortunatley, it's a transcription so no other info!
Son, Charles, bpt Wrexham 23 April 1820, which might add up.
Gadget
Wow Gadget, you achieve more on your lunch break than I do in weeks!
Yes, that's the correct marriage - here are what notes I had written down after viewing the original parish record image: Married by Banns, both made their mark, witnesses Thomas Turner and Richard Dixon. Both otp.
I do not know what the pair was doing in Eccles...