RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: ChrissieL on Saturday 30 December 17 16:27 GMT (UK)
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Not sure if this has been highlighted, but I see there is a new series starting on Thursday 4 January at 9.00pm on BBC2 called A House through Time, following the history of a house and its occupants
Chris
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I'd noted that, must try to set it to record. Much easier than trying to remember to watch it!
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Thanks Chris for posting this, I will set it to record.
Here is a link to the details of the series.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-house-star-new-tv-14016228
For anyone who may have an interest in the house, the address is 62 Falkner Street, Liverpool, the above link says it was previously numbered No. 58 before the building of more houses. However, I have looked at the census and it was actually No. 28 (maybe a typo on the above link).
Added: Strangely, in 1841 it is numbered 58 when Richard Glenton lived there, but they state the next residents were James and Ann Orr - they were at No. 28 in 1851/61 :-\ Will have to watch to find out.
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That looks good. Will definitely be watching.
Years ago there was a TV show about a tenement flat around the corner from me in Glasgow's West End and it was really interesting to see how social conditions and conventions had changed over time.
And wasn't there a daytime series on British telly a few years back called House History or House Detectives?
Sarah
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Just noticed that A House Through Time is repeated on Saturday at 7.15pm. It does sound as though it will be really interesting
Chris
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Either I'm suffering from a bad case of deja vu, or there's been a program exactly like this before. 4-5 years ago, I think.
A single house, history of the occupants, and the house re-dressed in period style for each episode.
Anyone else remember it (or suffer from the same deja vu) ?
BugBear
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I think that was Back in time for dinner ?
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I think that was Back in time for dinner ?
You're right - that fits my description.
But that's a much more recent series than the one I'm trying to remember, which was more general social history, and went back further (to around 1800, IIRC) :)
BugBear
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Maybe The Secret History of our Streets? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04bx5r1
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I caught part of the programme, and I wasn't impressed.
Eg there was a segment where they discovered that 2 little girls had been sent into an institution, (mother's fate unknown, father gone "to America"), and then they went off to USA to film battlefield sites. Seemingly without any evidence that the father ever fought there, I don't even think that they uncovered him on any passenger list either.
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Maybe The Secret History of our Streets? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04bx5r1
I watched that - also later than the one I'm thinking of, which was definitely a single property.
This is really hard to google, BTW!
BugBear
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GOTCHA!
No. 57: The History of a House
Architect historian Maxwell Hutchinson presents the 220 year interior design history of a middle-class Georgian house in Bristol, England.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373581/
It was transmitted 14 years ago, so my 4-5 years ago was an awful estimate.
BugBear
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Re the comment above about the American war, I thought they said the father was a quartermaster sergeant in the American war and read from a letter someone had sent to their family saying about the good food he and the quartermaster sergeant had eaten that day - steak and something. They said it would have been a far cry from what the ordinary soldier would have eaten.
I found it quite an interesting programme . The man above who had been involved in the cotton industry and therefore the slave industry, the commentator on the programme seemed to veer between disgust re the cotton side to sympathy when he found out that he died from tb at age of 45 (ish) just as the young abandoned girls had died of the same.
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I enjoyed it - but can't remember the detail of the American bit because by then I had got distracted by tracing the history of the occupants of my own house (north London) since it was built in the 1850s. Not sure why I had never done this before. Just looked mainly at census, electoral rolls and newspaper family notices so far.
By the end I had got this rough outline of (some of) the phases it has been through:
1861-1889: A slow succession of British-origin merchant or professional men (solicitors, doctors) and their families, each with two or three servants. Each family was quite settled and stayed several years.
1889-early 1900s: Still a single family home, but heads of household were merchants of Dutch or German/Prussian background. Many of the names suggest they were Jewish. Faster turnover. Fewer servants.
1911: Occupied as two households. Younger, smaller families. One servant each.
1930s: Still occupied as two households, now of older couples beyond childbearing. No sign in 1939 of live-in servants.
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... my own house (north London) since it was built in the 1850s. Not sure why I had never done this before. Just looked mainly at census, electoral rolls ...
Getting a full contiguous set of Electoral rolls for a person or address is "challenging" IME.
Ancestry's OCR, indexing, and the changing boundaries make it hard.
BugBear
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... my own house (north London) since it was built in the 1850s. Not sure why I had never done this before. Just looked mainly at census, electoral rolls ...
Getting a full contiguous set of Electoral rolls for a person or address is "challenging" IME.
Ancestry's OCR, indexing, and the changing boundaries make it hard.
BugBear
Yes, very challenging. Especially in many of the 19th century ones which are organised (within a ward) alphabetically by surname and not by street address, so that my usual tactic of finding a long-term neighbour with an unusual name and navigating from him/her does not work.
I still have huge gaps (e.g. the whole of the 1920s, everything post-WW2) and I am not sure if that is because the records aren't included or because my searches are inadequate. Mind you I have only spent about an hour on it so far :)
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For anyone who may have an interest in the house, the address is 62 Falkner Street, Liverpool, the above link says it was previously numbered No. 58 before the building of more houses. However, I have looked at the census and it was actually No. 28 (maybe a typo on the above link).
Added: Strangely, in 1841 it is numbered 58 when Richard Glenton lived there, but they state the next residents were James and Ann Orr - they were at No. 28 in 1851/61 :-\ Will have to watch to find out.
Apparently they moved from 58 to 28 which was a bigger house.
I enjoyed the programme, however English Heritage date the house to being built in 1820’s. There is a possible family notice in the Liverpool Mercury for 1834 for what looks like 58 Falkner Street (don’t have current sub so can’t be totally sure)but maybe there is another 15 to 20 years of history!
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I was rather surprised that the presenter and his experts didn't pick up on the actual ownership of the house - many similar houses in the early 19th century were often rented / leased rather than owned outright, and that would have been a reasonable guess where people like clerks seemed to be living above their stations! (And the "clErk" instead of "ClArk" pronunciation was a bit irritating) Did they not check out who built and sold the houses, how many were owner occupied, how many rented, etc.... there would have been sales information, and deeds, etc. My own parents' house had deeds documenting every owner including the original land, and transfer from 1830 when their house was built, with receipts, death certificates, changes of use, etc, and they added to that archive when in time they sold it on
Also, I can understand why the presenter preferred to follow the chap who toddled off to America, but if the programme was ABOUT THE HOUSE, then he went rather off topic.
The census returns were a good place to start, but there seemed to me to be quite a lot of guesswork - I'd not have thought it'd have cost over £1,000 in the first place, at that time, knowing the cost of similar houses not that far away - and a general bittiness that started to grate.
I had really been looking forward to this series, and was sad that it was not as good as it promised.
The illustrations were, however, delightful.
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I did wonder why they hadn’t checked the deeds. If the deeds don’t reflect the history of ownership of the house or land then surely anybody could choose any bit of land and build themselves a house. I also thought that a £1000 seemed a high price.
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I agree. I thought the presenter went well off topic. I also thought there was a lot of guess work.
For example why didn't he look at the Rate books and Poll Books? Or even maps which would show the local area being developed. How about fixtures and furnishings of the time. They touched on that briefly but I thought the show could have let us see far more of the pattern books.
I think matey will be off to more far flung places next week - ! So much for Falkner Street :-\
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I was rather surprised that the presenter and his experts didn't pick up on the actual ownership of the house
It is unlikely that the actual ownership would have added much to the story. The land appeared to have been owned by a Mr. Falkner prior to initial development. His heirs may still own it.
The "deeds" of a property only follow changes of ownership, whether of the land or of the buildings on it. They tell us nothing of the people who live in the property. Sometimes the names match up, but for any rented property there would be little in the way of a paper trail of occupancy there.
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I agree. I thought the presenter went well off topic. I also thought there was a lot of guess work.
For example why didn't he look at the Rate books and Poll Books? Or even maps which would show the local area being developed. How about fixtures and furnishings of the time. They touched on that briefly but I thought the show could have let us see far more of the pattern books.
I'm pretty sure that those books were consulted. How else would they know of James & Ann Orr, who had moved out by 1851?
The map of the site before development WAS shown. Remember that there was no requirement in those days to inform a "planning department" and give them detailed drawings of a forthcoming development. The next readily available map the street was probably the 1840s Ordnance Survey.
The programme was obviously not intended to be a history of interior decoration; that has been covered endlessly on TV and can be seen in museums around the country.
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I caught part of the programme, and I wasn't impressed.
Eg there was a segment where they discovered that 2 little girls had been sent into an institution, (mother's fate unknown, father gone "to America"), and then they went off to USA to film battlefield sites. Seemingly without any evidence that the father ever fought there, I don't even think that they uncovered him on any passenger list either.
So the mother's fate was unknown. Do you know what happened to all your relatives who appeared in the 1861 census? The children were followed in the paper trail provided by the Liverpool workhouse and Kirkdale Industrial School. The evidence of their father's trip to America was certainly shown, along with first hand accounts of his service in the Union army.
People outside Lancashire might well not understand the significance of the American Civil War. Farm workers in Kent and Surrey may well not even have heard of the conflict. The population of Lancashire, being heavily dependant on cotton imported from the slave states, were left without income.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancashire_Cotton_Famine
Surprisingly, the majority of the cotton workers supported the north rather than the Confederacy. It was more important to be against slavery than to eat.
As a result, Manchester has a Lincoln Square, with a statue of Abraham Lincoln.
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The programme was obviously not intended to be a history of interior decoration; that has been covered endlessly on TV and can be seen in museums around the country.
Ouch Andrew :o
The programme is called "A House through Time" so I certainly would be interested in everything to do with the house
And, sorry but I disagree I DO think those farm workers out in Kent and far flung Surrey would understand the significance of cotton and the American Civil War.
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... and often the documents which accrue with House and land sales can tell a great deal about the land, the building and the social life of its residents, as I mentioned when referring to my own parents' house, built c 1830. Each owner seemed to have added a great deal to the packet, there were death certificates, bills for repairs, wills and other things. My parents added their own information to that, when they sold it on in turn. It was a real history in a cardboard file.
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I also disagree that people outside Lancashire would be unlikely to be aware of the significance of the American Civil War, otherwise I would not have found some of my ancestors from Kent and Wiltshire involved in it.
I enjoyed the programme and will withhold criticism until I have seen the remaining two episodes.
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I also disagree that people outside Lancashire would be unlikely to be aware of the significance of the American Civil War, otherwise I would not have found some of my ancestors from Kent and Wiltshire involved in it.
I enjoyed the programme and will withhold criticism until I have seen the remaining two episodes.
I'm afraid that the situation was certainly not understood outside Lancashire, and has been ignored in history books. For example, the BBC's timeline of Victorian Britain (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/timeline/victorianbritain_timeline_noflash.shtml) has only 3 events in first half of the 1860s - a Post Office Savings scheme, the death of Prince Albert, and the linking of education funding to test results. Another online timeline at https://timelines.ws/countries/GB_E_1860_1910.HTML tells a little of how the American Civil War impinged on the political classes, but nothing of the effects on Lancashire. These are typical of the attitudes of the vast majority of history books.
Ag Labs in the south of England still toiled in the fields and received the same wages as before. A few better-off chaps bought tickets to cross the Atlantic for the sake of adventure.
Lancashire starved.
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I also disagree that people outside Lancashire would be unlikely to be aware of the significance of the American Civil War, otherwise I would not have found some of my ancestors from Kent and Wiltshire involved in it.
I enjoyed the programme and will withhold criticism until I have seen the remaining two episodes.
I agree people the length and breadth of Britain would know about the American Civil War a quick search on FindMyPast UK newspapers shows 6,758 articles about it between 1861 and 1869 with 1755 in 1862 alone. People would also feel the effects here in the UK, one article in 1865 was titled 'The fall of Richmond and its effects on English Commerce, there were shortages of cotton substitutes were selling at inflated prices
Cheers
Guy
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I see that there is a repeat of the first episode on BBC2 this evening at 7.15pm.
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Incidentally the house, 62 Falkner street is now up for sale for £600,000.00
Pat
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I rather enjoyed the first episode, partly because I have ancestors working as carters at the docks in Liverpool (my lineage) and well to do merchants on my husband's side. My 4x G grandmother also spent a night in Lancaster prison (under a false charge) so a glimpse of the cells was cool. I thought the contrast in lives between the various occupants interesting ie. riches to possible rags and vice versa. Diverting to explore the lives of the inhabitants brought more human interest, it may have been a little dry for many otherwise. I do think it is important that people have an understanding of historical events and their impact on lives at the time and therefore our lives now. The presenter would have been horrified by some of my very distant ancestors who were slave traders in Lancaster!
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I'm not sure if I should start this with SPOILER ALERT, so I will just in case anyone hasn't seen episode two and doesn't want to know.
I need to watch this again, as I was half asleep last night, but I was a bit disappointed to see the extraordinary story about the couple who started divorce proceedings and which ended with the wife, alone, looking after her husband's two illegitimate children was simply left in mid air. I know David Olusoga said nothing more was known about them, and I'm quite sure the programme's researchers tried, but I just wondered if Roots Chatters could do a more thorough job?
It did occur to me that they may have traced the family and descendants might not have been happy for too much investigation to be done, but if that was the case, why mention it at all?
Carole
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I totally agree with you, Carole :)
I thought of doing some forward sleuthing but didn't register all of the names - etc. All I can remember was the wife's name was Ann Robertson :-\
Gadget
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I really don't get the interest in the history of people living in a random house!
Its a house - there are millions of them and its not yours. The people living in it aren't or weren't connected to you. They could be anybody. No..just don't get it.
However, a chacun son gout. as they say.
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Actually, Gadget, I think the surname was Robinson. I tried a bit of "sleuthing" last night but failed miserably. It is quite easy to find Alfred in the censuses up to 1891 and to see him married in 1881 and 1891 (and presumably his death in 1893). Unfortunately I cannot see a marriage for Alfred and Ann (or Annie) to establish her maiden name and given that the two daughters would have a different mother's maiden name I can understand how identifying what happened to Ann and the two girls after Allfred's death is problematic. I can see possible entries in 1901 for Ann(ie) and Alice in 1901 but they are in service in different households
(By comparison the Lublin family is quite easy to follow!).
William
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Thanks William - as I said I didn't register the names properly until he moved onto the next occupants. I was expecting to find out about their life afterwards.
I supposed that after they moved to 64, it didn't fit the script.
I'll have another look for them later with your finds to work on :)
I recall that the woman was Adele Brown MS Savage - or have I mis-remembered :-\
Gadget
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I really don't get the interest in the history of people living in a random house!
I take it that the programmers have devised a 'hook' on which to hang various aspects of political & social history.
PS - I like it ;)
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I really don't get the interest in the history of people living in a random house!
I take it that the programmers have devised a 'hook' on which to hang various aspects of political & social history.
This forum needs a "like" !!
BugBear
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I really don't get the interest in the history of people living in a random house!
Its a house - there are millions of them and its not yours. The people living in it aren't or weren't connected to you. They could be anybody. No..just don't get it.
However, a chacun son gout. as they say.
So, are you only interested in the lives of your family, Jill?
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I think I'm getting the hang of it now .... it's not so much a programme about the history of a house, and the people who are living in it, as a programme about what happens to ( some ) of the people who happened to live in a particular house - and / or the neighbours - who have, to the writers/researchers/presenter got a more interesting story in their lives. Have I finally got it right?
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I've done a freeze frame on the pooter and this is all the information on the children's birth certificates that I can see - Sarah Frances d/o Alfred Robinson and Alice Adeline Brown born 3 August 1885 at Grove Cottage, Grove Road Wallasey he is a watchmaker (master) and his address is 62 Falkner Road Liverpool. I can just make out the words Alice A under his address and assume it's her separate address but I can't read it.
The second daughter Alice Adeline was born 6 Ivy Street, mother Alice Adeline Brown formerly Savage (deceased) no father's name given and nothing in the address box.
The 1891 census has Alfred Robinson, 44, his wife Ann 39 and daughters Sarah F 5 and Alice 3, all born in Liverpool living at 62 Falkner Street Liverpool.
Carole
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I really don't get the interest in the history of people living in a random house!
Its a house - there are millions of them and its not yours. The people living in it aren't or weren't connected to you. They could be anybody. No..just don't get it.
However, a chacun son gout. as they say.
So, are you only interested in the lives of your family, Jill?
I don't think so. I'm very much into history - I have a degree in it. However, I'm afraid I can't get too excited about the minutiae of random people, certainly not to the point of wondering about their birth, marriage and death dates etc.
Are you saying that you're happy to pluck a name out of the air and start researching their history? I wouldn't be sufficiently motivated, I'm afraid. I'm perfectly happy to try and help Rootschatters with the family history of their ancestors - who I obviously don't know from Adam (or Eve) - but that's because I'm motivated to help. it seems to me that what you're doing is taking it to the nth degree, which, as I said before, is fine - but not for me.
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I also did a considerable amount of social, economic and political history in my first degree and, although going on to other studies at post grad level, I have always loved history, particularly social history.
I find that people's lives serve to give a qualitative perspective to the events of the times that they lived through. For example, in the last programme, the position of women in 19th century England was illustrated clearly by the problems Ann Robinson faced - trying to obtain a divorce, property going to husband on marriage, etc. etc.
Gadget
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Sarah Frances d/o Alfred Robinson and Alice Adeline Brown born 3 August 1885 at Grove Cottage, Grove Road Wallasey he is a watchmaker (master) and his address is 62 Falkner Road Liverpool.
The second daughter Alice Adeline was born 6 Ivy Street, mother Alice Adeline Brown formerly Savage (deceased) no father's name given and nothing in the address box.
Strangely can't find a marriage of Alice Savage to a Brown, or 1855 death of Alice A Brown or even Alice A Robinson [she must have died between giving birth to Alice A jnr & the registration of the birth if she is marked as deceased on the bith certificate].
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It was said that Alice died 5 weeks after the second baby was born, Josey.
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OK, need to catch up on iplayer ;D
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Well I'm struggling to find any of them pre or post what happened. The girls mother, Alice Adelaide(sic) Brown died June quarter 1887 Liverpool aged 35, which means Alfred Robinson's wife Ann and his mistress Alice were both much the same age.
Carole
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I'm afraid that the situation was certainly not understood outside Lancashire, and has been ignored in history books. For example, the BBC's timeline of Victorian Britain (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/timeline/victorianbritain_timeline_noflash.shtml) has only 3 events in first half of the 1860s - a Post Office Savings scheme, the death of Prince Albert, and the linking of education funding to test results. Another online timeline at https://timelines.ws/countries/GB_E_1860_1910.HTML tells a little of how the American Civil War impinged on the political classes, but nothing of the effects on Lancashire. These are typical of the attitudes of the vast majority of history books.
Ag Labs in the south of England still toiled in the fields and received the same wages as before. A few better-off chaps bought tickets to cross the Atlantic for the sake of adventure.
Lancashire starved.
The worst hit town during the cotton famine was Stalybridge, which was in Cheshire.
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A really good programme.
At last something worth watching on mainstream TV!
Wonder if we will be told anything more about the current occupants? Probably not but quite interesting to know who they are, what they do, where they get their money from.
A bit nosey of me, perhaps?
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Just caught up on this and found it very interesting. Shows just how much of a story you can put together by looking at all the records available.
Contained more examples of useful genealogy work than most episodes of WDYTYA.
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Wonder if we will be told anything more about the current occupants? Probably not but quite interesting to know who they are, what they do, where they get their money from.
A bit nosey of me, perhaps?
Well that depends on if they are trying to get easy celebrity status or not, as per the current fashion!! (See this mornings news.)
I am quite enjoying the series though I agree with all the -ve comments I
also feel that it "contained more examples of useful genealogy work than most episodes of WDYTYA" as AntonyMMM says.
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Also, may I add, I was delighted to get some long shots of that gorgeous synagogue! :D
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I'm surprised that few people have commented on the good use of genealogical resources to find out about the lives of the people who lived in the house.
We saw censuses, BMD certificates, newspapers, directories, wills and other records being accessed to put the stories together.
Isn't this is something that we are all trying to do?
We ought to be congratulate the makers.
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Anyone else recognise the man who explained things at the synagogue? He has been on Heir Hunters.
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Anyone else recognise the man who explained things at the synagogue? He has been on Heir Hunters.
Yes.....Saul.
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Surprisingly, the majority of the cotton workers supported the north rather than the Confederacy. It was more important to be against slavery than to eat.
As a result, Manchester has a Lincoln Square, with a statue of Abraham Lincoln.
A bit ago I sent a link to a copy of the famous letter from Abraham Lincoln to some friends in the USA (might have been after the bomb attack there). They did know about it. Well worth reading.
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I don't think so. I'm very much into history - I have a degree in it. However, I'm afraid I can't get too excited about the minutiae of random people, certainly not to the point of wondering about their birth, marriage and death dates etc.
Are you saying that you're happy to pluck a name out of the air and start researching their history? I wouldn't be sufficiently motivated, I'm afraid. I'm perfectly happy to try and help Rootschatters with the family history of their ancestors - who I obviously don't know from Adam (or Eve) - but that's because I'm motivated to help. it seems to me that what you're doing is taking it to the nth degree, which, as I said before, is fine - but not for me.
It can be interesting doing a bit of research when a programme leaves loose ends without explanation. Often they have the full story and put online but have to edit it down for television.
Obviously does not interest everyone but it can be an interesting way to pass a bit of time especially when you find something that the 'professionals' missed.
I was also intrigued wondering what happened to the two daughter, I presume they were informally adopted. But can't find any trace so far.
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Well that depends on if they are trying to get easy celebrity status or not, as per the current fashion!! (See this mornings news.)
I am quite enjoying the series though I agree with all the -ve comments I
also feel that it "contained more examples of useful genealogy work than most episodes of WDYTYA" as AntonyMMM says.
One of the newspaper reports said the BBC (or at least the production company) had been working on the series for several years and that the current occupants did not want to be interviewed or photographed. Then in the last couple of days a couple of articles have appeared about them with name and photographs!
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I can well believe that it took some years of work and research to make the series.
Presumably they started off with a number of houses and had to find out which would be the most interesting.
I wonder how much the current owner got paid for the use of the house. It can be quite lucrative even if program or film makers use only a small part of your house.
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I can well believe that it took some years of work and research to make the series.
Presumably they started off with a number of houses and had to find out which would be the most interesting.
I wonder how much the current owner got paid for the use of the house. It can be quite lucrative even if program or film makers use only a small part of your house.
I doubt whether a history documentary, like this one, has a large budget!
The presenter has connections to one of the universities in Liverpool so it could be they chose a house through personal contacts.
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Having started this thread I've only just got round to watching the two episodes that have been televised. I've enjoyed both episodes very much and although there have been one or two loose ends, I thought the use of the resources available has been excellent and I've been impressed how much information has been gained from the newspaper archives. I
Chris
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Having started this thread I've only just got round to watching the two episodes that have been televised. I've enjoyed both episodes very much and although there have been one or two loose ends, I thought the use of the resources available has been excellent and I've been impressed how much information has been gained from the newspaper archives. I
Chris
I have a subscription to the BNA and use it many times every day. Often find things (not just Family History) there that I cannot find with usual web searches. Also found some really useful bits of information about my own family.
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I've just caught up with both episodes of this and thought it absolutely fascinating.
I know that the programme moved off at tangents to follow people who'd lived in the house once they'd left it, but that didn't matter - it's the social life of the time which is totally absorbing.
And it touched on those mysteries - why did they do that, why did they move there, why did they call themselves that, where the hell have they gone - which affect us all in family history research.
I find myself desperate to find out what happened to the wife who tried to divorce her husband, but stayed with him and brought up his illegitimate girls, and was then widowed in mysterious circumstances.
Can they REALLY not find out what happened via censuses and so on?? I see some people on this thread have been having a look, can count on Rootschatters ;)
And jillruss, I hear what you say about only being interested in following your own ancestors, but for one I find it absolutely fascinating to get a glimpse into other lives. Sometimes they illuminate my own ancestors' and sometimes because it's just that I'm interested. Or nosy.
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I just posted a message on ENG-LIVERPOOL to see if there has been any more information on the families anywhere, I thought it might have been brought up on there but not seen anything.
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I am enjoying this series. There is use of census records, birth, marriage and death certificates. There is plenty of social history too and the visit to the synagogue was fascinating.
Please let's have more of this type of programme.
Judy
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I just posted a message on ENG-LIVERPOOL to see if there has been any more information on the families anywhere, I thought it might have been brought up on there but not seen anything.
What's ENG-LIVERPOOL? Is it on another site?
Blue
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See https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/ENG/ENG-LIVERPOOL.html
However see https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2017/12/23/rootsweb-security-update/
Stan
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See https://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/ENG/ENG-LIVERPOOL.html
However see https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2017/12/23/rootsweb-security-update/
Stan
ROOTSWEB is back now, they shut down the mailing lists because of some sort of security problem but I think normal again now.
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The Archives are still not available. Mailing Lists: Mailing Lists have been functioning as normal, but the archives have been unavailable. We plan to make the archives available to you once we have WorldConnect available to you in a readable version. http://home.rootsweb.ancestry.com/
Stan
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In episode 2 much was made of the death of John Bowes from cholera in 1854, and how horrified the residents of Falkner Street must have been at a cholera death in their street.
There is a problem with this. John Bowes did not die in Liverpool. He died in Poulton-Le-Sands and is buried there, at Holy Trinity.
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I was interested in the Duffy line. Robert Duffy who married Sarah Ann Gemmell his parents were Robert Duffy and Margaret Montgomery. Robert Duffy senior was the son of pre-Famine Irish migrants, Francis Duffy and Margaret Alexander. Possibly from the north of Ireland as Francis and Margaret were both buried in the C of E section of Anfield Cemetery, both died in 1870, same year as Robert Duffy junior was born.
Blue
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In episode 2 much was made of the death of John Bowes from cholera in 1854, and how horrified the residents of Falkner Street must have been at a cholera death in their street.
There is a problem with this. John Bowes did not die in Liverpool. He died in Poulton-Le-Sands and is buried there, at Holy Trinity.
The program does not say he died in Liverpool, it says he died from cholera probably caught in Liverpool. David Olusoga has the death certificate in his hand and you can see the place of death as Pedder Street Poulton.
Stan
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In episode 2 much was made of the death of John Bowes from cholera in 1854, and how horrified the residents of Falkner Street must have been at a cholera death in their street.
There is a problem with this. John Bowes did not die in Liverpool. He died in Poulton-Le-Sands and is buried there, at Holy Trinity.
Not as horrified as the inhabitants of a small village when someone brings cholera to the area from a large town.
I see it can take several days for the symptoms to appear so it could be quite possible for someone to travel that distance without realising they were infected.
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This wasn't the only death from cholera in Poulton in September 1854 - there were 3 deaths earlier that month amongst excursionists from Yorkshire
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This wasn't the only death from cholera in Poulton in September 1854 - there were 3 deaths earlier that month amongst excursionists from Yorkshire
There was an excursion from a silk factory in Wray on the 9th September 1854. They heard there had been five deaths from cholera in Poulton on the previous day so they did not go further than Lancaster. ( Lancaster Gazette - Saturday 16 September 1854)
There were 953 deaths from cholera in Liverpool and West Derby over a three month period, in 1849 there had been 4545 deaths over a similar period.
There is a report on cholera in Lancaster Gazette - Saturday 23 September 1854, it has quite a bit about Poulton and says there was an old cesspool behind the houses. The smell was so bad that it made several people sick so in a period of hot weather it was carted away, the smell was so strong that some people were sick as the effluvia passed. The cholera outbreak followed soon afterwards.
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So it could be that John Bowes caught the cholera in Poulton and not Liverpool, so the program was mistaken. There was a hotel on Peddar Street, which is where he could have been staying. Interestingly Poulton-le-Sands School was founded by a Francis Bowes in 1745 so there was a connection.
Stan
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Of course there is the possibility that John Bowes brought the infection from Liverpool and was responsible for the outbreak.
Stan
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So it could be that John Bowes caught the cholera in Poulton and not Liverpool, so the program was mistaken. There was a hotel on Peddar Street, which is where he could have been staying. Interestingly Poulton-le-Sands School was founded by a Francis Bowes in 1745 so there was a connection. Stan
Very interesting.
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Did I really hear him say "the RAF's Fleet Air Arm" in the final episode?. That's not great from a professional historian.
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Did I really hear him say "the RAF's Fleet Air Arm" in the final episode?. That's not great from a professional historian.
I suspect it was not the only mistake he made!
He was on The One Show earlier in the evening and was asked how they chose the house. He said they looked at various and houses but claimed Liverpool was the obvious choice for the location.
I wonder if they had a big checklist and that one "ticked all the boxes"!
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The program does not say he died in Liverpool, it says he died from cholera probably caught in Liverpool. David Olusoga has the death certificate in his hand and you can see the place of death as Pedder Street Poulton.
Stan
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Gosh, I missed that snippet, my 4xG grandfather's burial is on the next page of the parish records!
Francis Bowes was the village blacksmith who died in 1732 & bequeathed his land in the village to trustees for the purpose of building a chapel of ease which was completed circa 1745. The school was also built on this land, next to Poulton Square, the original heart of Morecambe
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I've watched a few episodes of this programme but have found my attention wandering. I don't find the presenter at all engaging and can't help but compare hm with that great presenter of historical programmes, Lucy Worsley. Lucy brings history to life whereas this fellow seems to make it just .... well, dull.
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I've watched a few episodes of this programme but have found my attention wandering. I don't find the presenter at all engaging and can't help but compare hm with that great presenter of historical programmes, Lucy Worsley. Lucy brings history to life whereas this fellow seems to make it just .... well, dull.
I have seen a few of his series but never impressed, he always seems to have his own agenda.
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Well it takes all sorts - I like him a lot and have been impressed by his engagement with the various occupants of the house.
It may not take all family history researchers the same way, but however mistakenly (because how can one ever tell) I have been imaginatively involved with those I've researched and cannot help but guess what they must have thought and felt in often difficult circumstances.
I think David Olusoga has been excellent
Lucy Worsley is lovely but not engaged in the same way.
In my opinion that is! No offence to anyone else's.
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I agree with IgorStrav, I find David Olusoga engaging and have liked the other programmes he's made too. A number of his programmes involve historical subjects that don't get as much airtime which can only be good. The current series as advertised was looking at British history through the lives of the people who lived in the house so its not just a history of the house itself or the people that lived in and personally I think its been very well done.
Some of Lucy Worsley's more recent programmes have not held my attention much but some of her earlier series have been good. While its been suggested David Olusoga has his own agenda, the same could be said for LW who admitted to not having a background in Russian history prior to making the series she did the other year but wanted to look into that period and country. Personally as someone who has studied Russian history, I found it a little boring but I know others that liked it.
To be honest you could say any historian, or for that matter any one else, has their own agenda depending on how they put across something.
I appreciate that some haven't liked A House through Time as much as others, but if everyone liked the same things, it would get very boring.
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Well said. I wasn't too sure about this programme but I stuck with it and I'm glad.
My OH and I enjoyed it though there were moments when we didn't know where it was going. A lot of interesting research had been done. History was brought to life by introducing the various families along the way.
I hope there is another series. I also enjoyed the Britain in the Blitz series about the bombs dropped on Hull, Bristol, Glasgow and Liverpool, if my memory serves me correct? 😀😊
Judy
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I enjoyed it but I do feel that he assumed a bit too much about the character of the house's occupants - how they got/lost their money, what they did in the house and how they felt - but then it is a popular history programme.
Carole
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Exactly. He does seem to go off in his own direction, and assume quite a bit!
A decent enough presenter, but not in my opinion quite thorough enough research in some ways, perhaps...
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/31/domestic-stories-restless-ghosts-a-house-through-time-david-olusoga-social-history
This is a very interesting article about what historian David Olusoga felt whilst participating in the programme.
He says here that reading the archive documentation sourced by researchers whilst actually in the house itself in Falkner Street led to his feeling of intimacy with some of the previous occupants, 'a close encounter between historian and subject'.
He also says that he felt genuine dislike for some of the people, and he knows well that this is completely unacceptable and unreasonable, but nevertheless this is what he felt.
"To pass judgment on anyone – living or dead – on the basis of a handful of letters and ledger entries is palpably unfair and arguably ridiculous, and yet, in this case, almost impossible to resist."
Personally, I liked the involvement. I was particularly moved by the last episode which discussed, amongst other things, the death of the musician/restaurateur of the bottom flat. It was a moment in time which I recall very forcefully - I had a friend and work colleague who died of AIDS - and is as much a historical event worth remembering as the longer-ago subjects.
I, too, feel very personally involved with those I research. I'm quite aware that what I think about them is very likely wrong, but I feel it anyway.
And I think if people are encouraged to feel involved, then their understanding of history is amplified. Bit like colouring First World War photographs, because suddenly they're not black/white or sepia figments but live young lads just like those you know.
Might it help us remember lessons of the past?
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[quote author=IgorStrav
And I think if people are encouraged to feel involved, then their understanding of history is amplified. Bit like colouring First World War photographs, because suddenly they're not black/white or sepia figments but live young lads just like those you know.
Might it help us remember lessons of the past?
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I agree. My grandson is going to Poland next month to visit Krakow and will visit Auschwitz as part of his 'A' Level studies. I will be interested to hear his thoughts when he returns.
Judy
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I hope there is another series. I also enjoyed the Britain in the Blitz series about the bombs dropped on Hull, Bristol, Glasgow and Liverpool, if my memory serves me correct? 😀😊
Judy
I'm worried that any future series will forced to be about London. The media are horrendously London-centric, and are convinced that there is nothing worth looking at beyond the North Circular and South Circular. "The Secret History of Our Streets", for example, was about six streets in London. Someone must have complained very loudly, because series 2 consisted of three programmes about Scotland.
For 75 years, the Blitz, according to virtually all radio and TV programmes, was an attack on London; the destruction of Coventry was just an aberration. The recent "Blitz: Bombs that Changed Britain", and the 2015 "Blitz Cities" have been most welcome.
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I hope there is another series. I also enjoyed the Britain in the Blitz series about the bombs dropped on Hull, Bristol, Glasgow and Liverpool, if my memory serves me correct? 😀😊
Judy
I'm worried that any future series will forced to be about London. The media are horrendously London-centric, and are convinced that there is nothing worth looking at beyond the North Circular and South Circular. "The Secret History of Our Streets", for example, was about six streets in London. Someone must have complained very loudly, because series 2 consisted of three programmes about Scotland.
For 75 years, the Blitz, according to virtually all radio and TV programmes, was an attack on London; the destruction of Coventry was just an aberration. The recent "Blitz: Bombs that Changed Britain", and the 2015 "Blitz Cities" have been most welcome.
We'll have to keep our fingers crossed. At least this was about Liverpool and indeed did talk about the awful damage in terms of loss of life as well as buildings from the WWII bombs.
Having spent a bit of time looking at the Civilian Deaths record of WWII - it's a terrible document, and reading between the lines very poignant - there is a programme to be made about some of the people who sadly lost their lives.
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As someone else said, I wasn't very taken with the first episode, feeling that a lot of research that must've been there was glossed over, and quite a bit of "supposing" added ... but it was worth persisting with, in that I'd have felt wrong if I'd missed later episodes.
It's nothing to do with the presenter, although I don't know him from anything else, his casual manner worked well - the one I've found most irritating recently, with her elegantly slouchy "look at me" walk and bizarre outfits is the woman Fashion expert who I can't recall the name of, in "A stitch in time", where more talented people analyse and attempt to create an approximation of various outfits from painting, ( then she "does a Lucy Worsley" dressing up in them). Hey, there's a thought - a "Dress-Up Off" between her and Ms Worsley! I think I've just invented a new Television series!
You're right about the southern bias. It must come as a shock to the Powers That Be at broadcasting HQs that we do exist north of the Watford Gap .... and we've a heck of a lot of history to prove it!
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We'll have to keep our fingers crossed. At least this was about Liverpool and indeed did talk about the awful damage in terms of loss of life as well as buildings from the WWII bombs.
Having spent a bit of time looking at the Civilian Deaths record of WWII - it's a terrible document, and reading between the lines very poignant - there is a programme to be made about some of the people who sadly lost their lives.
There was some chatter online around the Blitz series about various other areas that were not mentioned and the usual concentration on the bombing of London but it is a fact that most bombs were dropped on the South East. People obviously remember the raids on their own towns and even though often there were casualties, it was often a handful of raids on that area. I recently read General Pile's book, they were often criticised for not having guns at these areas but they were desperately short of guns and manpower and if they did move them then the raids would have moved elsewhere by the time they were ready. I would have liked more on the defences in the Blitz series, the four programmes got very repetitive.
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I can't recollect seeing any posts on R.C. about the above B.B.C.2 programme.
For those of you who have not seen the programme it was the story of the occupants of one house, 62 Falkener Street, Liverpool 8 (Toxteth), from the time it was built to the present day. It would be well worth watching on line if you missed it.
There must be a lots of other houses throughout the country with stories just as interesting. This one was in a city and showed how things changed through the years in many ways.
I think, perhaps, if another series is forthcoming, a house in the countryside may be worth looking at as there will have been just as much social change in the countryside as in the city.
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Yes, there is a thread somewhere. I will try to find it. :)
Added: here it is:
topic merged
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...... and me too, now. ::) I rather suspected it was there somewhere.
Still, it was a superb series.
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I've thoroughly enjoyed the series. I hope they will make another, although I'm sure there was some very time consuming research that went on behind the scenes.
Bearing in mind that they have to make these programmes entertaining for the general public and not just those of us who are interested in genealogy or family history, I think they did a pretty good job. My daughter, who isn't particularly interested in family history thought it was 'Brilliant'
Chris