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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: sue14 on Saturday 30 December 17 20:14 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I wonder if someone out there can tell me how I can order a PDF copy of a birth certificate and death certificate when I cannot find the entry on the GRO index ?
I have the reference numbers from other websites so I know they are registered. I have asked the GRO but they have not answered me yet
Sue14
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Have you tried spelling variations?
Or tell us who you are looking for, and we might be able to help?
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If you log into the GRO website and click the Search The GRO Indexes option, you can enter the details (name, year, district) to find the entry you need Using spelling variations is as good idea, because not all transcript sites spell entries the same! On the right of the entry are options to order cert or pdf. If you click on the option you want, the order form will autofill the data needed.
Hope this helps
Philip
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PDFs are only available for births from 1837 to 1916 and deaths from 1837 to 1957.
Are the records you're looking for within those dates?
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Thank you all for suggestions.
Yes I have tried all these.
The year is 1910 Manchester Rowland Corbett
Do I assume if it does not show on GRO index I cannot order it as a PDF
Sue14
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What are the references you have found elsewhere?
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8d, p211. Weird, I can't find it either.
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Yes that is the reference I found and death certificate 8d 79
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Several other births from that page are there 🤔
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Yes that is the reference I found and death certificate 8d 79
The death is there, in Salford.
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Strange, I have just ordered using Dec quarter Manchester 8d 211 and it went thro ok, I didn’t actually compete the purchase :)
Mike
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Strange, I have just ordered using Dec quarter Manchester 8d 211 and it went thro ok, I didn’t actually compete the purchase :).
Mike
Bizarre, i tried various options, inc female 🙄, but cannot find it.
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Thank you Deirdre784 yes I have found the death now.
I'm glad it is just not me that can't find the birth.
Sue14
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I cannot find the birth on gro.gov, but it accepted my order and came back with the confirm delivery and payment page
Mike
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HI Mazi
Thank you for trying
But I was hoping to be able to order the PDF copy not the more expensive copy.
Sue14
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Just posted a reply but it's disappeared ::)
Rather than searching the GRO online index, go through the old GRO route of 'place an order' entering the details as you know them. It gives you the option of a pdf. If there is a problem, they can always come back to you but hopefully there is a reason why we can't find it (though I've tried various spellings etc).
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If you log into the GRO website and click the Search The GRO Indexes option, you can enter the details (name, year, district) to find the entry you need Using spelling variations is as good idea, because not all transcript sites spell entries the same! On the right of the entry are options to order cert or pdf. If you click on the option you want, the order form will autofill the data needed.
Hope this helps
Philip
I tried this (Ann Luffman d1860 Age 0 Spilsby) She is on the local record, but not on the national. The entry has been transcribed by Free BMD
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HI Mazi
Thank you for trying
But I was hoping to be able to order the PDF copy not the more expensive copy.
Sue14
I ticked the box for ordering a pdf.
It’s not likely to be connected but if you look at the image that freebmd was transcribed from the district is unclear
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Probably not relevant but I cannot see a likely candidate on the free index for 1911
Mike
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Probably not relevant but I cannot see a likely candidate on the free index for 1911
Mike
For Rowland Corbett? He died in the same quarter as his birth, Dec 1910 (in Salford).
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Thank you all for your help
I have sent off an order as per Mazi
I forgot that on the order form you have a choice, I was thinking you could only order a PDF on the search page.
Thank you all again
Sue14
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Sorry, I should have noticed the death.
I had a similar problem, an alteration to the cert. had been made a few days after the registration,
Freebmd had indexed the birth under the altered details but the gro would not supply a certificate as the “ original details do not match”
At least they did not charge me, I phoned the local register office who explained, and sold me a certificate.
Mike
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Just a small point,if the volume is 8d don't you have to order it as 08d ?
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I think that the GRO always omit the leading zero?
Leastwise, they know that 08d is the same thing as 8d ;D
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This is really strange. The reference given on freebmd for Roland Corbett - Manchester 1910 - is vol 8d page 211.
I have tried to find my relative Fanny Wickens - Isle of Wight 1846, given on freebmd as vol 8 page 212, which is what it says on the original scan. Nothing comes back on GRO. I raised this as a missing entry with GRO and the response was "Investigated - No Amendment Required. Indexed Data is Correct".
It lets me put all the data in the GRO order form, but would GRO later reject the order if they couldn't find the certificate when they try to process it?
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Just a thought, RW1, are you offering TOO MUCH information to GRO? If you just give the information from the image of the GRO Index, then I'm sure they will find the entry.
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How strange - just looked at FreeBMD, and the original page scan. Fanny definitely Isle of Wight, VIII, 212. And looked at the new GRO facility - nothing for Fanny Wickens in 1846, anywhere.
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I thought I had read somewhere that the 'new' GRO index was from a different source to the one freebmd uses
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Hello. Thanks.
I wonder if when GRO says that "Indexed Data is Correct" they mean that it was subsequently amended to something else, and that's where it would be on GRO, although they have no way of telling me where that is!
Fanny was illegitimate but her mother later (18 years later) married a man who referred to Fanny as his daughter on the census. Would this have changed her birth certificate if this man was her father?
Perhaps I should phone the Isle of Wight Registry and order directly like someone else has suggested?
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Just to clarify, Fanny's record is not under the "father's" name either!
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Alternative source on FreeBMD - the first one I posted was from an Ancestry source, this one is from an earlier .tif file
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But there is a Fanny JACOBS on the same page ( no mother's maiden name shown).
That may well be her - the old index used by FreeBMD and the new GRO one use different indexing rules, so the results can be different, especially where parents are both named, but unmarried.
Birth registers don't show any surname for a child (before 1969) so the indexes may show the entry under the father's name or mother's name or both depending on the rules being use.
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There are 11 entries for that reference and there should only be 10
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I thought I had read somewhere that the 'new' GRO index was from a different source to the one freebmd uses
So, we're all wasting our time transcribing >:( >:( >:( >:( So what's new?
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There are 11 entries for that reference and there should only be 10
Which confirms that one entry has been indexed twice ...
My guess would be that Fanny's birth entry will have a father named xxxxx JACOBS, and a mother named XXXXX WICKENS, but with no "formerly xxxxx" shown for her (so no maiden name).
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I thought I had read somewhere that the 'new' GRO index was from a different source to the one freebmd uses
So, we're all wasting our time transcribing >:( >:( >:( >:( So what's new?
No you are not wasting your time because we can find what we are looking for on freebmd :-* :-*
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Well, that's interesting. Thank you so much.
So Fanny Jacobs and Fanny Wickens could be one and the same. I wonder who Mr Jacobs was!
Fanny was raised in her grandparents household (Isaac and Charlotte Wickens) and I initally thought she was their child (always listed as "daughter" not "granddaughter").
What should I put in the GRO order - Wickens or Jacobs?
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Jacobs if you want a PDF.
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I wasn't really going to give up!!! I do enjoy doing it - and at least now that I've got to 1969 marriages I can, at least, read the writing/typing (most of the time). However, I can't believe how many entries there are - September quarter 1969 - page number 820 and I've only got as far as Harrison (roughly 140 names per page = 114,800 names :o ) - not sure whether that is the total for the year, or just the quarter - must go and have a look ::)
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You have been working hard BumbleB :) I can see the little red + against the recent entries :)
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Thank you to all the volunteers doing the transcribing!
I guess GRO were quite correct - the entry wasn't missing, just under a different name!
Finally, the "father" Fanny's mother married in 1864 wasn't Mr Jacobs, it was James Wale!
Many thanks for all your expertise.
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The good part about it is that if it is your Fanny Wicken (aka Jacobs) then the birth certificate should name her actual father.
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I thought I had read somewhere that the 'new' GRO index was from a different source to the one freebmd uses
Most customers want to know...
Q9. Why is GRO publishing an online index when other organisations have already done this?
The new index will contain additional data fields to those which are already available and this will assist family historians to identify the correct record. In addition, the index is created from the digitised records and is not a copy of the existing index which is already made available by third party organisations. We will also be able to update our online index if errors or omissions have been identified.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp
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Thank you Cuffie81 I knew I had seen it somewhere :)
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..and finally
the PDF arrived today. Yes, Fanny Jacobs IS my Fanny Wickens.
Antony MMM is absolutely correct. Maria Wickens is named as Mother but with no "formerly". I understand Antony MMM's point that if there is no "formerly" for the mother's name then there would be no maiden name on GRO (which there isn't), but as that column is headed "Name and Maiden Surname of Mother" and the entry is "Maria Wickens", why don't they take Wickens as the maiden name automatically?
If there is no "formerly" does GRO assume mother and father were unmarried? So, to be indexed with a maiden name, it would have to be "Maria Jacobs, formerly Wickens"?
To meet the GRO's rules, it would seem the entry would have to be "Maria Wickens, formerly Wickens" just to get a maiden name on the GRO birth certificate record. I don't see why there can't be a maiden name, when it's given on the birth certificate in the correct column and is just as relevant.
By the way father was John Jacobs, bricklayer. Never heard of him before!
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To meet the GRO's rules, it would seem the entry would have to be "Maria Wickens, formerly Wickens" just to get a maiden name on the GRO birth certificate record. I don't see why there can't be a maiden name, when it's given on the birth certificate in the correct column and is just as relevant.
Your confusion comes from a misunderstanding of the term maiden name and the way the GRO indexes and the FreeBMD indexes are compiled.
A maiden name is not (necessarily) the name a woman is born with. The definition of "maiden name" for registration purposes is the name in which a woman first contracts a marriage, so an unmarried woman cannot have a maiden name. GRO correctly show the maiden name in such a case as "-".
The older index, as used by FreeBMD, chose just to repeat an unmarried woman's surname as her maiden name when that index was compiled, which is technically incorrect.
The fact that the two indexes use different rules is actually very useful - once you understand the rules each use it means you can use the different results in each index to more accurately interpret what is likely to be on the register entry. But, as always, the only way to be really sure is get a copy on a certificate.
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BUT - FreeBMD merely transcribe the details as given on the GRO Index, they do not make any interpretations.
And I'm assuming from what you say about Maiden Name that current Birth Certificates differ from those issued in the past
eg: copy Birth Certificate issued 2005 = Pursuant to the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 Heading for Column 5 - Name, surname and maiden surname of mother. Name entered in that column is "Annie Black formerly Blue"
Original Birth Certificate issued 1917 = Pursuant to the Births and Deaths Registration Acts, 1836 to 1874 Heading for Column 5 - Name and Maiden Surname of Mother. Name entered in that column is "Annie Blue formerly Black"
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BUT - FreeBMD merely transcribe the details as given on the GRO Index, they do not make any interpretations.
Indeed - but that index was compiled under a set of rules (that involve assumption), but which are not the same as the rules the "new" index has used.
Any index is just a snapshot of bits of information created by a set of rules and all have their own issues and idiosyncrasies. As an example, the indexers who created the new GRO index were apparently told that a maiden name will always come after "formerly" but in one district I looked at a particular registrar in the 1860s has used the word "late" instead of "formerly" for all married women on every entry over a couple of years. As a result the GRO index has a "-" for the maiden name on all those entries.
Another problem is that the details of the informant (column 7) can be vital in correctly interpreting a birth entry, especially the marital status of the parents, and they don't feature in either index at all !
And I'm assuming from what you say about Maiden Name that current Birth Certificates differ from those issued in the past
eg: copy Birth Certificate issued 2005 = Pursuant to the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 Heading for Column 5 - Name, surname and maiden surname of mother. Name entered in that column is "Annie Black formerly Blue"
Original Birth Certificate issued 1917 = Pursuant to the Births and Deaths Registration Acts, 1836 to 1874 Heading for Column 5 - Name and Maiden Surname of Mother. Name entered in that column is "Annie Blue formerly Black"
The column headings on certificates have changed slightly, and current birth registers have a specific space to record the maiden name of the mother, but the way that is determined (e.g. the name in which she first married) hasn't changed.
Those two examples you give with the names reversed cannot both be correct - someone has made an error somewhere. That could be when the older certificate was written out, or when the entry was copied to be sent to GRO - you would have to get the original register entry checked to be certain of what is on it.
There is no original birth certificate, only a birth register entry, what you may have is a certificate issued at the time of registration.
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Sorry for the confusion. The two examples were two completely separate certificates, and for two different children. Feeble brain not working correctly :-[
1917 certificate was issued at the time of registration. 2005 copy was for a birth registered in 1852.
And I now think that I understand the two versions of the GRO Index. FreeBMD (Ancestry/FindMyPast etc) are transcribing from copies of the index originally issued by GRO, whilst the GRO itself uses an updated index. :-\
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I think I remember reading (AnthonyMMM will correct me if I'm wrong ;D) that the new GRO Indexes were compiled from the digitised certificates?
Or digitised data from the certificates that the GRO hold.
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Almost ... this would be more correct:
digitised data from the certificates copies of the register entries that the GRO hold.
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Many thanks AntonyMMM - and I've finally noticed why you know so much about registrations ;) ;) :-X Dohhhhhh!
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I think I remember reading (AnthonyMMM will correct me if I'm wrong ;D) that the new GRO Indexes were compiled from the digitised certificates?
Or digitised data from the certificates that the GRO hold.
It is here KG ;D
I thought I had read somewhere that the 'new' GRO index was from a different source to the one freebmd uses
Most customers want to know...
Q9. Why is GRO publishing an online index when other organisations have already done this?
The new index will contain additional data fields to those which are already available and this will assist family historians to identify the correct record. In addition, the index is created from the digitised records and is not a copy of the existing index which is already made available by third party organisations. We will also be able to update our online index if errors or omissions have been identified.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp
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Hello everyone
My original question on this thread has been completed now. I have received the birth certificate from the GRO.
So my thread is now Complete
Sue
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Hi Sue
Just to let you know, there should be a [topic completed] button at the bottom of each of your topics that you can use when you are happy a topic is finished with. This is mainly used when topics and titles can't be edited after 24 hours.
If you click the button by mistake, you can turn it back again as the button changes to [topic not completed].
When you have clicked the button, a green tick appears in the forum index and at the top of the topic.
Saves you having to use the [report to moderator] button or post a 'completed' reply might may be overlooked.
Hope this helps.
Dawn