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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: manda_mcd on Saturday 30 December 17 21:01 GMT (UK)

Title: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Saturday 30 December 17 21:01 GMT (UK)
Not sure where to post this but owing to my own foolishness i have been left with a huge setback in my research of ancestor Alexander McDougall b Glassary Argyll 4 Sept 1822 son of Duncan McDougall and Ann Gillies. According to his sons Marriage cert Alexander was a master Mariner who Married Agnes McFie
The family at the time of 1851 census were together
Alexander MacDugall   28 Head Ship master b Kilmichael, argyleshire
Agnes MacDugall   25
Duncan MacDugall   5
John MacDugall   3
Agnes MacDugall   1

there are two entries which appear to be Alexanders marriage one states the 3rd of May 1845
Alexander Mcdougall m 3 May 1845 Ann Mcfie Glassary Argyll

the other  21 May 1845 in Barony
Alexander Mcdougall m Agnes Mcfie 21 May 1845 Barony,Lanark

reads as follows
 Alexander McDougall Seaman of Lochgilphead Parish of Kilmichael, Glassary, and Agnes McFie residing in Barony Parish on 21st of May 1845 at Lochgilphead by rev William Mclachlan Minister of the reformed Presbyterian Chapel parish of Kilmichael

At this point i had thought this was the same marriage as Agnes/Annie are both used when his wife is mentioned elsewhere

I made contact with someone on a site who appeared to be researching the same person which led to me mistakenly pursuing a career as a mariner ships dates etc for the wrong Alexander McDougall the guy had all the right relatives etc but mariner ticket 100043 belonged to Another Alexander McDougall born in Lochgilphead APRIL 1823  now i am at a loss as to which is the right wedding detail and how to trace my Alexanders mariners or seamans ticket?
 what it appears like is two Alexander McDougalls both born in Argyll within a year and both pursued a career in the merchant service possibly both  married in May 1845

any help appreciated i feel rather deflated
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: isobelw on Saturday 30 December 17 21:17 GMT (UK)
What makes you think the marriage entries are not for the same couple?
Isobel
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: hurworth on Saturday 30 December 17 21:19 GMT (UK)
I think it would be best to purchase both entries from ScotlandsPeople.  It wasn't uncommon for the marriage to be recorded in two parishes - one being where they actually married and the other being the home parish of one of the bride or groom.  It's likely these two records are for the same couple. 

I bought a record recently for a marriage record from Resolis.  Now that I've seen the record it is actually is for proclaiming the banns of marriage, and it says that the marriage took place in Edinburgh. 

I don't currently have a FindMyPast sub, but they have a seaman's record for an Alex MacDougald born 1828 in Lochgilphead.  It's possible to just buy some credits at FindMyPast rather than take out a sub. 

There's two mariner's records for Alexander MacDougald born 1822 in Lochgilphead.  They may be the same person or two different people.

Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Saturday 30 December 17 21:22 GMT (UK)
Thanks both for your replies i have purchased both entries from SP  will upload image just now
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Saturday 30 December 17 21:44 GMT (UK)
The first had to crop as was too big
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Saturday 30 December 17 21:46 GMT (UK)
and 2nd
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: Millmoor on Saturday 30 December 17 21:48 GMT (UK)
The "other" Alexander McDougall appears to have lived in Greenock and, I think, is recorded there on both the 1851 and 1861 censuses.( It is a Greenock address which appears on the masters and mates cert). Censuses also suggest that his wife was called Eliza or Elizabeth (maiden name was possibly Wells). I, therefore, think that the marriages you have found are correct.

William
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Saturday 30 December 17 22:05 GMT (UK)
Yes thats actually how i had first realised i was with the wrong guy as the address of his family with wife Eliz and children matched the masters certificate . Not a mistake i will make again without checking everything.  Checked FindMyPast and the info available doesnt really provide me with anymore clues am afraid :(
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Saturday 30 December 17 22:07 GMT (UK)
I think it would be best to purchase both entries from ScotlandsPeople.  It wasn't uncommon for the marriage to be recorded in two parishes - one being where they actually married and the other being the home parish of one of the bride or groom.  It's likely these two records are for the same couple. 

I bought a record recently for a marriage record from Resolis.  Now that I've seen the record it is actually is for proclaiming the banns of marriage, and it says that the marriage took place in Edinburgh. 



I don't currently have a FindMyPast sub, but they have a seaman's record for an Alex MacDougald born 1828 in Lochgilphead.  It's possible to just buy some credits at FindMyPast rather than take out a sub. 

There's two mariner's records for Alexander MacDougald born 1822 in Lochgilphead.  They may be the same person or two different people.
sorry did you search "Lochgilphead" on FindMyPast as the ones i saw say Tobermory Argyllshire and Jura ?
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: hurworth on Saturday 30 December 17 22:17 GMT (UK)

sorry did you search "Lochgilphead" on FindMyPast as the ones i saw say Tobermory Argyllshire and Jura ?

These were the search terms:
Alexander
First name(s)

Macdougall
Last name

1822
Year Of Birth

Lochgilphead
Where

It came up with these on the index (I can't open them as my sub expired on Monday)
McDougald   Alexander   1822      1845   Britain, Merchant Seamen, 1835-1857   Great Britain   
McDougald   Alexander   1822      1845   Britain, Merchant Seamen, 1835-1857   Great Britain

Perhaps it did a broader search?  I chose name variants for first and last names.
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: isobelw on Saturday 30 December 17 22:18 GMT (UK)
The address on the Mates certificate ( 1855)  is in Glasgow. The 1857 Master's certificate does show an address in Greenock, but it doesn't match either of the census addresses in 1851 or 1861 for the Alexander married to Eliza. Also the Greenock Alexander is shown as born 1825.
I personally think that ticket 100043 belongs to the Alexander who was married to Ann/Agnes McPhie.
Isobel

Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Saturday 30 December 17 22:19 GMT (UK)
Thanks i will have another look :)
Did you know if you register with the National library Scotland you can access FindMyPast records free via their online collections
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Saturday 30 December 17 22:28 GMT (UK)
Is this the same certificate? as this lists the voyages of ticket holder 100043 previous to application which when looking them up are all based around greenock
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: hurworth on Saturday 30 December 17 22:43 GMT (UK)
I wonder whether that record is missing some earlier years?  There's no mention of an apprenticeship.

My gtgt-grandfather started his career in his mid teens in his home town in Scotland, but soon after completing his apprenticeship he was on ships from other ports and then later on doing trips to South America on a Cork registered ship.  That didn't make any sense to me until I realised the Master of the Cork ship was his first cousin, and the ship belonged to his cousin's wife's family.

His younger brother started at the same time and was only 4 foot 8 inches when he began his apprenticeship.  Their father had recently died so I suppose the boys needed to find jobs very quickly.
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: isobelw on Saturday 30 December 17 22:48 GMT (UK)
The Clyde was not navigable to Glasgow for larger ships until well into the 19th century. Greenock was the major port for Glasgow, with larger ships being unloaded there and cargo transferred to Glasgow by other means. All the ships except one on your list were registered in Glasgow but may well have sailed in and out of Greenock.
Isobel
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: Josephine on Saturday 30 December 17 22:49 GMT (UK)
Scotland's civil death records usually provide the names of the decedent's spouse(s), if any, and parents, including mother's maiden name (if known).

So the death records for one or both of those men might help you sort them out.

Regards,
Josephine
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Saturday 30 December 17 23:08 GMT (UK)
Thanks everyone who has replied , There is a 5 or 6 pieces which are attatched to his mates and also masters certificates and it did state he (100043) went to sea as a boy and had 6 years for which he could provide no references.Most of those listed were lighter and Tugs belonging to the Clyde shipping co. The duke of Northumberland which is last mentioned sunk after a collision in 1858 but there were no fatalities I have tried to trace his death certificate with no sucess he was already deceased in 1869 when John his son married. Parents were Ann Gillies and Duncan McDougall (mariner) b 1801
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Saturday 30 December 17 23:10 GMT (UK)
The records on FindMyPast have a ticket number of 224,681 which i will try and trace if possible
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: Millmoor on Saturday 30 December 17 23:26 GMT (UK)
The 1851 census quoted in the opening post shows Alexander's occupation as ships master. Does the log attached above not show that the Alexander quoted did not attain his masters until 1857?

Note that the children showing in the 1851 census are with other family members in 1861 - Duncan showing as nephew of David and Margaret McGuire ( might she be a McPhee as there is a marriage of a David McGuire and Margaret McPhee in Hutchenstown in 1855?).

William
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: isobelw on Saturday 30 December 17 23:31 GMT (UK)
The records on FindMyPast have a ticket number of 224,681 which i will try and trace if possible
That record is for an Alexander born in Lochgilphead in 1822 ( no precise date) who first went to sea a a Boy in 1837. Lives in Lochgilphead when not at sea. Ticketed in 1845 at Glasgow in 1847 age 25.
Isobel
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Saturday 30 December 17 23:47 GMT (UK)
Milmoor thanks for reply
Without claiming any serious knowledge on the subject it is my understanding as picked up while searching there was a change in law am sure 1854? wherby mates and masters had to be ticketed and this was firstly a voluntary step and was phased into compulsary by 1858. ( not accurate) Alexander when passing both masters and mates certificates had providede the ships he was on as the board would then offer a ceretificate of competancy based on the experience if they thought it suffice . Hope if i am too far off with the info someone will correct me
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Saturday 30 December 17 23:48 GMT (UK)
The records on FindMyPast have a ticket number of 224,681 which i will try and trace if possible
That record is for an Alexander born in Lochgilphead in 1822 ( no precise date) who first went to sea a a Boy in 1837. Lives in Lochgilphead when not at sea. Ticketed in 1845 at Glasgow in 1847 age 25.
Isobel
isobel thank you as said already i really am at a loss with this any suggestions as to how i could proceed with my research? thanks a million xx
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Sunday 31 December 17 00:03 GMT (UK)
Just checked my records and the children are as follows with John  and Agnes both at
Curries land lochgilphead with their maiden aunts both sisters of Alexander b1822

Margaret McDougal   24   1837 Lochgilphead   Draper
Mary McDougal      39   1822 Lochgilphead
John McDougal      13   1848 Lochgilphead   Scolar
Agnes McDougal      11   1850 Lochgilphead    Scholar

1861 census
David Mcquire   58, missionary born Dunlop, Ayr
Margaret Mcquire   43, wife, born Lochgilphead
Margaret Mcquire   4, Daughter, born Gorbals
William Mcquire   1, son, born Govan.
Duncan Mcdougall   14, nephew, 7 Salisbury St, Govan, assistant in shipping office, born Lochgilphead.
Isabella Gillies   11, niece, servant, born Lochgilphead.
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: Millmoor on Sunday 31 December 17 00:53 GMT (UK)
Just to say that I think the Mcquire transcription for 1861 is incorrect - it should be McGuire. Hence my reference to the 1855 marriage (David McGuire is showing as a widower in 1851).

William
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Sunday 31 December 17 14:05 GMT (UK)
Yeah I agree will you on the error in transcription I only copied it as written
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: Annette7 on Sunday 31 December 17 15:19 GMT (UK)
Surely this could be Alexander McDougall's death:

Alexander McDougal  aged 33 - Seaman (Master)  (widower) - died Arbroath Infirmary on 11/8/1856 of strangulated hernia.

He could well have been taken ill whilst on board ship and taken to the nearest hospital which was Arbroath.  Name, age and occupation all right.

Annette
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Sunday 31 December 17 16:35 GMT (UK)
I have this death certificate but can't read any information from it other than what you said above looks like matron reported his death and he was buried in arbroath churchyard which i can find nothing of i will upload the cert maybe someone can read more of it
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Tuesday 02 January 18 23:12 GMT (UK)
can anyone suggest a method of perhaps working out which ship would have been in or around arbroath that Alexander would have likely been on board maybe the logs would have noted him being taken unwell etc his death was the 11August 1856  and states after 10 days unwell have i read it correctly
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: seaweed on Wednesday 03 January 18 18:17 GMT (UK)
The Alexander McDougall  with the Captains certificate number 100043 (this is a "Home Trade" certificate) appears in the Mercantile Navy List from 1858 until 1863. Naming masters and certificate numbers ceased in that year. He is listed as having been awarded his masters certificate in August? 1857 at Greenock. There are records of service for this certificate number in the National Archive.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_cr=bt125%2F1&_dss=range&_ro=any&_st=adv
They are on Microfilm and as far as I am aware have not been published on line. May be worth looking to see if there are any clues there.
Clearly not the person who died in Arbroath in 1856.
Consult "Lloyd's List" (available from National Library of Scotland) for details of ships entering the port of Arbroath in or around late July/early August 1856. Also look at local newspapers for the same dates.
If you come up with a list of ships, come back for details of how to obtain the ships logbooks.
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Wednesday 03 January 18 22:25 GMT (UK)
Thanks seaweed will have a look on the nls
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: isobelw on Wednesday 03 January 18 22:29 GMT (UK)
I've had a look at Lloyds list on the British Newspaper Archive site and there are no ships listed for Arbroath in the late July/ early August period with a master called McDougall.
Isobel
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Thursday 04 January 18 14:24 GMT (UK)
Thanks Isabel, I am currently visiting friends for a few days so can only research on my phone  however if I knew if any particular resource I could take a trip into the Mitchell as it's not far from here
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Thursday 04 January 18 16:14 GMT (UK)
I am wondering if it may be worth trying to make a list of any ships at the port of Arbroath in the time suggested to check if an Alexander McDougall is on the crew lists as previously suggested ticket 100043 doesn't belong to the same one who passed in 1856 is it possible he would have been on board as a mate ?
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: seaweed on Thursday 04 January 18 20:55 GMT (UK)
Yes. As suggested in my previous post you need to get a list of ships entering the port of Arbroath July/ August 1856. With a little luck it may then be possible to search crew agreements to see if he can be found.
I am afraid these are stored in TNA Kew in the series BT98. If it is a problem for you to visit personally, let me know and if I have the time I will try and take a look for you.
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: isobelw on Thursday 04 January 18 22:11 GMT (UK)
From Lloyds list - arrivals in Arbroath ( date- ship name- Masters name- port come from)
16/7 Giffords - Gifford- Riga
17/7 Norval - Mason - Memel
17/7 Susan - Beek- Riga
19/7Mary & Louise - Jenkins - Girgenti
21/7 Belle - Jenkins -Quebec
21/7 Hermes - Souter- Riga
22/7 Rud - Losehenkohl - koningsberg
22/7 Challenger - Innes - Riga
31/7 Arica - Harrison - Riga
7/8 Jonge Gerrit - Gerritsina - Memel
10/8 Teaser - Broadhead - Antwerp
10/8 Creziena - Panjer- memel

Isobel
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Thursday 04 January 18 23:17 GMT (UK)
Seaweed thanks again unfortunately Kew for the archives isnt an option for me anytime soon being a non driver I am in Scotland and full time carer for my son, should you be going any time soon it would be most greatly appreciated.
Isabel thanks once again for your swift help 😊 also happy new year to you both
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: seaweed on Friday 05 January 18 12:45 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the list isobelw.
I have attempted to make a logical response based on experience and gut feeling. Given the information available on line it is very difficult to be precise. For example there are 16 vessels named TEASER or TEAZER listed in the Mercantile Navy List for 1857 yet only two entries in Lloyd's Register for the same year.
I have included the National Archives piece numbers for your records. As always I will do my best to find the information required but make no promises. I should be visiting TNA sometime in February.

GIFFORDS registered in Borrowstownness (Bo'ness) piece number BT98/4387
NORVAL, Montrose, BT98/4626
SUSAN, Montrose, BT98/4626
MARY AND LOUISE No records found.
BELLE, Dundee, BT98/4435
HERMES, Dundee, BT98/4436
RUD, No records, probably foreign flagged.
CHALLENGER, Kingston, This port is not recognised by TNA catalogue. Possibly Kingston on Hull. BT98/4492.
ARICA, Whitby, BT98/4727
JONGE GERRIT, probably, foreign.
TEASER, Ipswich, BT98/4501
CREZIENA, Probably foreign.
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Friday 05 January 18 14:07 GMT (UK)
Thanks seaweed appreciate ur time
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Thursday 11 January 18 21:22 GMT (UK)
IF the ticket number 100043 does belong to my Alexander MCDOUGALL and my transcription
from his service history is right (found with his mates cert) he would have been master of the
Duke of Northumberland when she was sunk after a collision with the S.S Thistle  reported on
17 May 1858 Her owners pursued 2,100 from the owners of the Thistle and case went before
Lord Justice Clerk 30 March 1859 where both parties were found to be at fault and that the owners of the Thistle should pay half of said amount.
Names of crew or master were not mentioned and i am wondering if this would have impacted his life at sea as a ships master ? Seaweed mentioned this ticket was  still active until 1863 i think can anyone shed light on the protocol for such an instance then?

Ship              Port           Rank           From          To          Yrs   Mnths
___________________________________________________________
Falcon           Greenock   Hand           April 41   Ap 1844   3   -
Ann Lighter   Glasgow   Hand         Oct 14   Ap 1845   -   6
Trusty [Str]   Glasgow   Hand    Apr 14   Oct 1845   -   6
Hercules [Str]   Glasgow   Hand      Oct 18   Nov 1847   2   -
Conqueror [Str]   Glasgow   Hand           Nov 10   Dec 1848   -   10
Glasgow [Str]   Glasgow   Pilot           Dec 12   Dec 1851   3   -
Gulloin [Str]   Glasgow   Pilot           Dec 16      Dec 1853   2   -
Laniels [Str]   Glasgow   2nd Mate   Jan 14   Jan 1854   -   6
Strike [Str]   Glasgow   2nd Mate   July 15   Ap 1855   -   9
Elk [Str]           Glasgow   2nd Mate   Apr 18   Aug 1856   1   5
Almrod [Str]   Glasgow   Master   Aug 22   Feb 1857      4
Duke of [Str]   Glasgow   Master.   Ang 13   Aug 1857   0   6
Nrthumbrlnd
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Thursday 08 February 18 00:30 GMT (UK)
Rather than start a new thread i thought it better to add here , Alexanders wife Anne or Agnes McFie is still quite a mystery all i know is of their  marriage and as stated she was  residing in Barony at the time of their marriage (May 1845) No info for her parents  anyone suggest where or how i can proceed? thanks Ax
 
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: Millmoor on Thursday 08 February 18 08:22 GMT (UK)
Hello again

It looks as though Agnes may well have died before 1855 and so there may not be a death reg. for her.

I would go back and look at the discussion on page 3 of the thread and try to find out as much as I could about her potential sister Margaret McGuire(McPhee).

Death for Margaret McGuire(McPhee) in Govan 1884 age 66. Hopefully her death. cert would name her parents.

William
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Friday 09 February 18 02:12 GMT (UK)
Milmoor thanks again i am unable to purchase the full extract today but will do so next week i did however find Margaret McPhee born Glassary 1817 to John McPhee and Margaret Blair, Also  for Agnes McPhie b 1825 to John McPhie and Margaret Blair in Glassary this does seem to fit but i will need to have another look tomorrow after a nights sleep this also suggests a third daughter Mary McPhee but will confirm also x
Title: Re: Such a muddle I'm in now
Post by: manda_mcd on Monday 12 February 18 15:07 GMT (UK)
Thanks Milmoor I now have Ann McPhie wife of Alexander McDougall

Parents John McPhie married Margaret Blair had 4 daughters i know of
Mary mcphie      b 12 May  1816 Glassary Argyllshire
Margaret McPhie b 29 August 1817 Glassary Argyllshire
Isobel McPhie     b 20  March 1821  Glassary Argyllshire
Ann McPhie        b 2 January 1825  Glassary Argyllshire