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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: noytd on Sunday 31 December 17 11:15 GMT (UK)
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I was wondering if anybody might be able to help me to identify this property.
For a while now I have been trying to identify this property, without much luck :(
The property appears at the start of an old photo album that I inherited. None of the pictures or people in the album have any writing to identify them. During my research I have been able to confirm the following locations from some of the photos - St. Albans (a fox hunt), Bodiam Castle, St. Augustine's Church, Brookland (Kent), and Lyme Regis (Dorset). The majority of photos are of beaches, trips (identified ones mentioned), and what I am assuming the family gardens.
The woman most featured in the album appears in what I assume is the family photo in front of the house. Another clue is the lady appears in photos at Woodcote which I have previously posted about here. She is presumably visiting her mother or some other elderly relative. Frustratingly I have also struggled to locate where Woodcote is/was.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=784786
Two cars with viewable registrations also appear, one is D6383 and the other D2715 - both I believe are Kent issued registrations. Both cars have been identified as being manufactured by Star of Wolverhampton.
As for candidates, at present I have no strong leads. I have followed several but they have been incorrect. There are a number of branches of the family in the Kent area, but my 4x great grandfather had 52 grandchildren, who produced a large amount of candidates. Main family name for the area would be Blaxland, but I have not had any success in tying them to a this mystery property.
Any help would be greatly appreciated, many kind thanks :)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iD32cG/Screen_Shot_2017_12_30_at_11_51_34_am.png) (https://ibb.co/mv5FxG)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iHR1pw/IMG_2945.jpg) (https://ibb.co/czMqhG)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bt9VWb/Screen_Shot_2017_12_30_at_11_51_48_am.png) (https://ibb.co/dC3qWb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iY1Cwb/IMG_2951.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bymO2G)
(https://preview.ibb.co/e5CkGb/IMG_2948.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gdnKbb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fW50hG/IMG_2949.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hwyaGb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ia0Bpw/IMG_2946.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kXTLhG)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fkogpw/IMG_2947.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iyhkGb)
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I wonder if this is recognisable from above door last photo
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I have tried to zoom into the crest as much as I can, the best result has come from using a magnifying glass. It looks to me like the initials W and R, however, I am not sure if this is just a trick of the photo and is actually just part of the decoration.
It appears to be a swan on a crown?
(https://preview.ibb.co/iQF5Gb/IMG_2957.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k5ZbNG)
(https://preview.ibb.co/izQY2G/IMG_2958.jpg) (https://ibb.co/di449w)
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Just looking for clues in the photos, there are quite a few tropical/palm tree looking plants in the gardens, this would suggest a location in the South of England as these plants wouldn't grow well further North. This ties I with the locations you have been able to confirm for the other photos in the album.
Still looking ;)
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Hi :) :) :)
I love your photos
Just a thought but you don't have the name of a photograpraper on the back of any of them do you?
Happy New Year
Best wishes
Emms ;D
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To me, the garden has the feel of Torquay or Bournemouth.
Ray
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To me, the garden has the feel of Torquay or Bournemouth.
Ray
I thought that too Ray - perhaps it was the Palm trees ;D
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Strange, I thought Hertfordshire. I saw some similar houses in the St Albans area but not enough detail to give a definite match.
Gadget
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Unfortunately it would be impossible to see the reverse of the images, they have been glued into the album. However, it does look as though the photos were all taken on the same day judging by the positions of the blinds in the windows. So perhaps some sort of gathering of a new camera to play with warranted getting everybody, including servants, to have their phots taken?
One thing I did notice is that the photos only show one view of the house, but one photo shows what appears to be another wing, or that the other side is longer. I will attach some photos from the pages that feature the house in case these show other aspects of the property.
In the middle of the pictures is a seemingly out of place page. A visit to an unknown beach. I am not sure if this gives a clue as to the location of the house.
I have had a look on www.lostheritage.org.uk on both Kent and Sussex without any luck. I have also tried basic google searches for swan crests, but again with no solid results.
(https://preview.ibb.co/mDcNUw/IMG_2994.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ecNZbb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/eoBhUw/IMG_2997.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j4XBNG)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dEOwpw/IMG_2995.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fnyU9w)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nnjfGb/IMG_2993.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k6Q99w)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ctNp9w/IMG_2996.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ioJ7wb)
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It is broadly similar to the old Mells in Frome,Somerset which burned down in 1917.
Regards
Roger
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Just looking for clues in the photos, there are quite a few tropical/palm tree looking plants in the gardens, this would suggest a location in the South of England as these plants wouldn't grow well further North. This ties I with the locations you have been able to confirm for the other photos in the album.
Still looking ;)
You get trees like that on the Clyde riviera, we have one in our garden. No idea which house that is though I'm afraid.
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The large stones on the beach should help rule out some areas. What is that they are moving in the background, too big for a bathing hut isn't it?
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Have you tried English Heritage/Historic England/National Trust and the like? I believe they have photo archives, one of their archivists may be able to help.
Lovely photos by the way. Pebbled beach says Brighton or somewhere in that area to me.
Jane :-)
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Many thanks for the replies and suggestions :)
I have been looking and looking through the album for any further clues. Straight after the photos of the unidentified album appears a page showing another unidentified country house. It is a different house as its more gothic in look and has an extra level. However, a clue is provided with the initials HTM on the buckets. Presumably this house is somehow connected (whether by family or locality).
There is also the wedding photo of the woman who most appears in the album, but not a great deal to identify in the photo.
Hopefully this is a puzzle when one place is identified everything falls into place :)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nccvzw/IMG_3001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gx6Ymb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/cwfR6b/IMG_2999.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jcuVXG)
(https://preview.ibb.co/ctaFzw/IMG_2998.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c0JDmb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hbTeRb/IMG_3002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f4s66b)
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It looks to me that the house behind the lady with horse has dutch gables on the front elevation.
This might suggest somewhere like East Kent(?)
Regards
Roger
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It looks to me that the house behind the lady with horse has dutch gables on the front elevation.
This might suggest somewhere like East Kent(?)
Regards
Roger
Thanks for that Roger, I noticed them but couldn't remember what they were called to help with a search :)
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I hope it's the right term then- a memory left over from all the Cazza59 searches!
Regards
Roger
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I hope it's the right term then- a memory left over from all the Cazza59 searches!
Regards
Roger
Yes, it is the right term, but I still can't find the house :-\ I learned such a lot about architecture through Cazza's searches, but I seem to have forgotten most of it ::)
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The nearest I can find is Bawdeswell Hall - but I don't think that is it.
Regards
Roger
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I spotted that one too! The online photos appear to be the front of the house, the photo with the lady and the horse could be the back of the same house, but I can't find a photo to confirm/deny it.
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Here's a guide to South East England beaches with maps and photographs [unfortunately just one photo per beach]. Still, you might be able to narrow it down and then look for historical photos of the beaches which look like possibilities.
https://www.thebeachguide.co.uk/south-east-england/
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I thought perhaps Athelhampton House in Dorset, or even Rhinefield House in the New Forest, but couldn't quite match it up.
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In the picture of the man on his horse and dog outside a building there are three tubs / buckets at ground level marked with the letters "HTM". Could these indicate the name of the estate (perhaps "Higher T.... Manor", or similar) or the initials of the owner ?
Incidentally, in the wedding photo, neither the bride nor the bridesmaids look exactly happy, do they ? :(
Maec
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Noytd, I am so excited to see these photos. :) I can't help with the location, but the photos are amazing and a delight to see! You are so lucky to have the album.
I will do some digging and see if I can come up with anything.
I am loathe to suggest this, as it probably won't reveal anything, and I wouldn't fiddle with something so precious. These are obviously candid snaps and not professional ones which would have an identifiable stamp on the back ....., but, if any of them are a bit loose on the page, maybe you could try to have a peek behind just in case? :-\ I would guess that the wedding photo might be the most likely to have writing on the back, but I could be waaaaay wrong with that thought. ;)
Have you found all of your families in the 1911 census? I am wondering if any of their addresses give any clues, maybe along the lines of "Posh" House for example? :)
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It might be worth your while to set up a page with the photos and email the Chief Librarians in selected counties and ask them to forward it to all their libraries. Local knowledge is what will solve this. You just have to hit the right locality.
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Many thanks for all the efforts and responses :)
I am fortunate that my late grandmother was interested in genealogy. She collected a mass of photos, albums, documents etc. Frustratingly she obviously knew who was in the albums but did not label any of them. I have managed to identify near enough all of them ... this one, however, remains a stubborn mystery.
The main candidates have been the Parsons family and Skyrme family, both of Hastings. But these have now been ruled out due to them being identified in other photos and not matching to the people in this album.
The album also includes a fox hunting meet, with one image identified as being taken in St. Albans. This brought forward Vice Admiral John Edric Blaxland as a candidate as he briefly lived in Harpenden during the early 1900s. However, there are no references to the Royal Navy in the album and he had no links to the Hastings area.
As has been suggested, I probably will have to write out a list of family members from the 1911 census and cross reference them in the hope that they actually were at that unidentified country house at that time. Of course the property might have been rented. Another possible candidate is the Wigan family who were hop merchants in London. I have identified photographs of the mainline of the family, but not of the younger siblings - big families with numerous offshoots. They were linked to numerous large houses.
Surprisingly the album contains absolutely no loose photographs at all. Every photo is still firmly glued to the pages. Unfortunately any potential secrets on the back shall remain hidden.
I will attach a photo of the St Albans hunt, and also two other photos. Most of the album is made up of such garden scenes. I looked to the lawn mower for clues, but it was a commonly produced brand. The woman is holding a copy of the Bystander, but again not much of a clue.
The St Albans photo is intriguing. The family obviously enjoyed hunting (guns clearly on show at the house) and riding. But compared to the identified locations St Albans seems a bit out of the way. There are several pictures of this hunt making its way through the countryside.
(https://preview.ibb.co/cunMPw/IMG_3019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gWZ1Pw)
(https://preview.ibb.co/dQXzBb/IMG_3020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jqbRrb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/m5UCWb/IMG_3021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hrrRrb)
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Hi
What amazing photos
Definitely would benefit from some local knowledge.
How about posting some links to this topic in a couple of weeks he most likely counties?
Certainly local studies libraries can be amazing too
Certainly have a style of hoss we have connections to in Hastings Hampshire or Hertfordshire and very flat and mild so coastal? I did look at loads on Google images but no joy
Good luck and Best wishes
Emms :)
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Lovely photos :)
Sorry I am not much help the only thing I noticed was the date and initials on the manor house wall..
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Looking at the arms above the door, it looks to me like a coronet with something emanating from it?
Is that a leaf on the right-hand side of the blurry bit?
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Looks like a Camel in the crown to me, also the beach and hut reminded me of Hastings.
Jennifer
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Camels are very rare in UK Heraldry! ;D
Best I can find is Hamilton:
Out of a ducal coronet an oak-tree fructed proper, cut through the main stem by a framesaw proper, the frame or--Crest of HAMILTON, Duke of Hamilton and Brandon.
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Looking at the arms above the door, it looks to me like a coronet with something emanating from it?
Is that a leaf on the right-hand side of the blurry bit?
Might a clearer scan be possible noytd?
On your second photo on page one we can see the bottom half of the shield above the door. This looks clearer than the shield in the other photos, so perhaps a good scan of that, even though the top half is missing, might reveal something.
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Could it be this one:
http://www.lostheritage.org.uk/houses/lh_kent_belvedere_info_gallery.html
Maybe not but good to have.
Carol
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Good afternoon,
Afraid not Carol, far two big and has 3 floors not 2. Oddly, on the link it says at the top demolished 1957. The final picture says taken in the 60s showing extent of additional building. :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
John915
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as I said earlier John...maybe not but as Blaxlands of Kent is the Family that the poster was interested in, I thought it worth posting.
Carol
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Back again,
Actually Carol, the newspaper description doesn't appear to match the photo's. There has to be more than 8 bedrooms in that place.
Also, the additional building is on the front of the house and looks like a school. Had a look online but can't find anything to match.
John915
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I'll get my coat then...must try harder ::)
Carol
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Well I've been looking at piers for half an hour with no luck. It is quite a small pier and perhaps no longer exists.
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Has a time frame for these photographs been established from the dress and carriages?
Jennifer
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They look to be Edwardian Jennifer.
Carol
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They look to be Edwardian Jennifer.
Carol
Glad you did not put your coat on ;D
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Well I've been looking at piers for half an hour with no luck. It is quite a small pier and perhaps no longer exists.
If it is Hastings, it definitely isn't there now.
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They look to be Edwardian Jennifer.
Carol
Glad you did not put your coat on ;D
I did Rosie but It was just tooooo windy so I came back inside ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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They look to be Edwardian Jennifer.
Carol
Glad you did not put your coat on ;D
I did Rosie but It was just tooooo windy so I came back inside ;D ;D ;D
Carol
It is crazily windy - this afternoon, an empty paddling pool came flying past the window and landed in our next door neighbour's tree. No idea where it came from, because there are only 4 houses on our road, and it doesn't belong to us or the other two neighbours.........!
From the beach photos, I did wonder if it was Deal - but that might be too populated :-\
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Many kind thanks for the responses and efforts, very much appreciated.
I had not previously noticed the initials and date on the one photo!
I started the topic below to see if anybody could help with the crest.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=784914.0
I have looked up the family names that I know, but none come up with anything like this particular image.
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Fox hunters in front of St Albans town hall circa 1900.
https://www.francisfrith.com/uk/st-albans/st-albans-the-town-hall-c1910_s2505
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Nice Work FB 8)
Carol
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Well done. So does that move the search to Hertfordshire?
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Well done. So does that move the search to Hertfordshire?
Noytd refers to the St Albans picture in reply #25 but seems to think it doesn’t have relevance to the search :-\
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Strange, I thought Hertfordshire. I saw some similar houses in the St Albans area but not enough detail to give a definite match.
Gadget
;D
Added - but could be Thurnham Court, Maidstone, Kent. See other thread.
Added 2 - checked it out - not the same place
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Well done Jamie!!
Hope you didn't spend too long piering over photos!
Maybe the Isle of Wight is where the big 'ouse is too ???
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How about this for one of the houses(can't make my mind up)? Shoreham Place,Kent (demolished 1961)
http://www.lostheritage.org.uk/houses/lh_kent_shorehamplace_info_gallery.html
Regards
Roger
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I don't think it is that one, Roger - the gables on Shoreham Place look to be more pointed than on the one behind the lady and her horse ???
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That was my concern,too.I thought the gables on the posted house were a little more "Dutch".
Regards
Roger
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Strange, I thought Hertfordshire. I saw some similar houses in the St Albans area but not enough detail to give a definite match.
Gadget
;D
Added - but could be Thurnham Court, Maidstone, Kent. See other thread.
The house with the crest on, is that also the house with the palm trees in the garden and FCP 1849 by the door? In which case, it isn't Thurnham Court http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-23252601.html
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Good afternoon,
Carol may not have been far off with her post ref Belvedere house. That property was sold in 1906 and became "Royal Albert home for aged merchant seamen" . Havn't found an exact date for demolition but that area was all turned into a housing estate or three.
However, reading the newspaper ad again, that refers to a place called "Sunny-Hill, Lessness Park". Lessness park still exists as a rd in Belvedere, again all newer housing. Given that the family name is correct that could be the house but unable to find photo's as yet.
John915
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Well I've been looking at piers for half an hour with no luck. It is quite a small pier and perhaps no longer exists.
If it is Hastings, it definitely isn't there now.
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Well I've been looking at piers for half an hour with no luck. It is quite a small pier and perhaps no longer exists.
If it is Hastings, it definitely isn't there now.
We've done that on the last page, it's definitely Totland Bay.
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If the house isn't on the Isle of Wight there was a ferry to that pier from Lymington so they could have been there on a day trip from Hampshire.
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Like the rest, I am struggling with this one, but, there is a similarity with "The Durdans" in Epsom. I wonder if both buildings had the same architect/builder?
https://www.francisfrith.com/epsom/epsom-the-durdans-1895_35123
Malky
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The pier is not dissimilar to Hythe Pier. That's a railway pier, with criss-cross metal holding it up.
If you scroll down about 1/3rd of the way down this page you'll see what I mean
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/hythe_pier_railway/index.shtml
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I did wonder about that a while ago,particularly as there are Blaxlands living at Berwick Manor,Lympne,Hythe in 1911.There appears to be a building too modern(modest?) to be that(?).
Having failed to find an alternative image,and the prospect of the pier being on IOW,I stopped looking.
I might revisit that search,if only for final elimination.
Regards
Roger
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From a quick glance, Hythe looks rather more built up than in our photo. The pier also appears to be at Hythe on the Solent rather than Hythe in Kent.
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It looks a lot like West Cliff Hotel, Hythe. It's a big place and there have been changes over the years, but it's a pretty good match. I can't find the exact same side/angle yet.
What do others think?
Here are a few to look at:
https://ebid.s3.amazonaws.com/upload_big/3/1/6/1368615852-16715-28.jpg
1955: https://www.francisfrith.com/hythe,hampshire/hythe-west-cliff-hall-hotel-c1955_h372049
Now, modernised and extended etc, it's now a care home complex:
http://trigpointinguk-photos.s3.amazonaws.com/127/P127733.jpg
So they were on their holibobs .... taking just one set of photos, as you do with film etc. You shoot as many photos as your materials allow you to from "one reel" or "one box of plates".
It might take a "local" to pop down and compare different angles to see if they can re-shoot the same side/angle/bit .. if not demolished.
And I found this:
"It is a large hotel which used to be on the coast but now overlooks drained Reclaimed Land.
The hotel is on a hill surrounded by woodland.At the bottom of the hill is a railway track used by goods trains serving the Fawley Oil Refinery further south on Southampton Water. "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/domesday/dblock/GB-440000-108000/page/11
Which, I think, might nail it.
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Sorry, I don't think it's the same. On the original there are 5 window above the door between the "tower bits" on the hotel there are 7 and one of the "tower bits" would have had to be demolished.
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Sorry, I don't think it's the same. On the original there are 5 window above the door between the "tower bits" on the hotel there are 7 and one of the "tower bits" would have had to be demolished.
From the original I can see other wings .... that bit could either have been remodelled, or be a different wing.
The roof is also entirely different, but that could be because it's a different wing and/or been remodelled.
I'm holding onto these straws!!
:)
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We need to find out the history of West Cliff Hotel as that would help to confirm or eliminate.
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Apparently it was originally built for a Colonel Vere Hobart. Postal address was West Cliff Hall, Dibden.
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Good evening,
Definately two different buildings. To get from the OPs photo to the hotel would have involved a complete demolition and rebuild job.
John915
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Good evening,
Definately two different buildings. To get from the OPs photo to the hotel would have involved a complete demolition and rebuild job.
John915
I agree with you John.
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This is the railway, which doesn't look like the ramp in the OP's photo
https://www.francisfrith.com/hythe,hampshire/hythe-pier-and-train-c1960_h372076
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Just an observation after having a closer look at these pictures.
The first house with the two bays/tower bits has a sort of drape effect over and part way down the sides of each window. Looking at the wedding group photo in reply #13 the window to the right has the same thing, although the window glass is totally different. I wonder if this could be another side or wing of that house.
Added. Just noticed the glass in the window is plain, it's just the door and the windows to the left that are "leaded".
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Good morning,
Some comparison pictures for clarification;
1 OPs photo (private house)
2 West Hall (may have been a hotel but now a care home)
3 Hythe showing pier (the area just the other side of the pier is now the Hythe marina where I delivered ice during the summer months)
John915
Added; The pier is the one across the centre not the one at the bottom.
Added; Thought it odd that the term "west hill cliffs" was used. There are no cliffs at Hythe.
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Just a note, the Bystander in post 25, ran between 1905 to 1940.
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The pier is 100% Totlands Bay, IOW so I wouldn't bother trying to compare it to anywhere else.
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The pier is 100% Totlands Bay, IOW so I wouldn't bother trying to compare it to anywhere else.
I agree. A couple of early 1900s pics to compare
http://www.totland.shalfleet.net/images_totland2/totland_steamer_at_pier.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7082/7175997768_7924634e63_b.jpg
add
http://www.totland.shalfleet.net/images_totland2/totland_from_pier.jpg
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Many kind thanks for all of the help and efforts, very very much appreciated.
This search very much reminds me of a search I had to identify a house a few years ago. The family album had belonged to the Parsons family of Hastings (the newspaper publishers). However, there was a mystery photo of a elegant looking Victorian villa type property. It was ruled out as being a Parsons home, so for a long time it was assumed to be some random house that they had visited.
Fast forward in time and I took another look in the album. I noticed that the same property featured in photos of an elderly couple. The elderly couple were a mystery, until after many hours of searching I found mention of a photo featured in a local newspaper of my 3x great grandparents golden wedding anniversary. I contacted Hastings library who kindly located a copy of the photo and suddenly this mystery was solved. The property was there home Hole Farm. As far as I am aware, this property no longer exists and I have not seen any other photographs of it.
So I am starting to think that the unidentified country house is perhaps a similar story. Maybe it was one of many country houses that were destroyed in the 1910s-1960s era? There must be a large number of such houses that have entirely vanished from living memory and photographic memory. But the clues are the crest, a potential building date of 1849 and initials F.C.(P?) , and a connection to thatched roof house in the Rye area called Woodcote.
The potential Hastings area connection is very interesting. As already mentioned, I am descended from the Parsons family. Very interestingly, in the album that I have from the Parsons family (covering 1890s-1930s), there are numerous beach trip photographs and also trips to the Isle of Wight. The albums contents are very similar.
So common sense might dictate that this album is from the Parsons family of that era. However, this is where problems come up with this potential connection. I can find nobody in the Parsons family from that era who resided in a country house. Also nobody in this album appears to be in the Parsons family album.
I am sure if/when this house is identified I shall be kicking myself like with Hole Farm :)
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So I am starting to think that the unidentified country house is perhaps a similar story. Maybe it was one of many country houses that were destroyed in the 1910s-1960s era? There must be a large number of such houses that have entirely vanished from living memory and photographic memory. But the clues are the crest, a potential building date of 1849 and initials F.C.(P?) , and a connection to thatched roof house in the Rye area called Woodcote.
Yes i think it's no longer in existence.
I've searched for listed properties to which something of significance was done in 1849 and not found a match.
I've already been through most of these lost houses in southern England but it might be worth contacting the site's owner with a picture: http://www.lostheritage.org.uk/lh_complete_list.html
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Gledhow Hall has similar architecture but it's in Leeds:
Scroll down for fuller picture of the property but looks like the rear aspect.
https://houseandheritage.org/2016/09/05/gledhow-hall/
Carol
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Good afternoon,
That is very close in style Carol but not wide enough. Needs another 2 windows between the end bays. No external blinds on windows either.
John915
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I have sent an email to the Lost Heritage website to see if they can help.
I have considered the possibility that the woman might have married into my family and grown up or lived at the house pre-marriage. That might explain why the images of the house appear at the start of the album, and why servants etc were all rounded up for the photographs.
Curiously the house is not seen again throughout the album.
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A very long shot,but could it be Hinton House,Hinton Ampner before the 1936 rebuild,said to be based on the original(?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinton_Ampner
It's not a huge distance away from the IOW ferry!
The occupying family in the second half of the 19th century are Duttons.I have struggled,but so far failed to make any link to an 1865 St Albans marriage of a Thomas Dutton to an Elizabeth Parsons.
Regards
Roger
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I think you might well have it, Roger :)
Looks very like it - well done .
Added -dates don't fit wit h the 1849 date though :-\
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Close but don't think so. It now belongs to the National Trust
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/hinton-ampner
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Apart from the dates, why do you think it's not the place, Jan?
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I'm not confident myself.The current building is presumably the 1936 rebuild,post dating the Edwardian photos we are trying to match.Really need a clear pre 1936 image.
Regards
Roger
P.S.I was hoping the initials might be ECP with 1849 being the birthdate of Elizabeth Parsons who married in 1865-rather fanciful,I know.
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I've been looking for some old ones from Frith but none of the house - need a more esoteric link!
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Good evening,
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but not Hinton Ampner.
The pre rebuild house was identical to the present one. It suffered a devastating fire but the main structure of the house remained. It is and was brick built, but no render like the OPs house.
Can't do a link but look at "hinton ampner house images" you will see a photo of the house from same angle as OPs house. Click on it for a blow up, scroll down and you will see an almost identical photo only on fire.
John915
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None of the old maps of Hinton House seem to show a "slanting" approach drive like the one in the first photo. You may have to zoom in or out to see the map.
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/459500/127500/12/101083
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Apart from the dates, why do you think it's not the place, Jan?
Just general appearance and a few things that didn't fit. However, there are a lot of similarities so could the OP house be designed by the same architect?
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Wasn't the fire in 1960,then restoration to the 1936 version?
Regards
Roger
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Close but don't think so. It now belongs to the National Trust
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/hinton-ampner
Not so close. ;)
Bays round rather than angled, building material appears to be brick, pediment (?) differs, two or three stairs up to front door of OP's house, about 5 or 6 up to Hinton House, general proportions differ ....
Though not the same house, Carol's Gledhow Hall is the closest that has been found so far stylewise.
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.The current building is presumably the 1936 rebuild,post dating the Edwardian photos we are trying to match.Really need a clear pre 1936 image.
Regards
Roger
Amazed that there are no photos of the earlier Victorian building anywhere.
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According to this website "Hinton Ampner House was built in 1790, remodelled in 1875 and 1936, and much of what we see today was rebuilt after a fire in 1960."
https://dtoms.com/2013/12/07/hampshire-architecture-hinton-ampner-listed-buildings/
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Good evening,
You are correct Roger, fire was in 1960. But the house has always been brick, it's just been remodelled as it says.
John915
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If this is the Victorian version,it's definitely not it!
http://www.hinton-ampner.org.uk/gg/victorian_house.html
Regards
Roger
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Scroll down and there looks to be a pic of the 1930s house:
http://www.hinton-ampner.org.uk/gg/garde_1930s.htm
Also the 1960s fire from main menu
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Quite a lot of terracing near the front of Hinton House ... which is not evident in the OP's photos. In the photo of the garden the lawns look very flat.
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noytd, I keep thinking that the shield above the door may yield some clues.
I have no knowledge of such things, but do you think it might be worth rescanning it?
The experts may be able to advise settings etc and how to do this to get the best results. I know that some have programmes to enhance photos to bring out more detail, so this may be worth a try. :-\
I note that the shield, or parts of it, appears in a few photos, so I am wondering if it might be worth scanning even those which don't show the entire shield? Photo 2 for example appears to be a bit sharper though the top part of the shield is cut off.
:)
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Quite a lot of terracing near the front of Hinton House ... which is not evident in the OP's photos. In the photo of the garden the lawns look very flat.
I agree Ruskie, I can't accept it's the same house.
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It might not help with the main house with the octagonal bays, other than perhaps being in the same general location, but I've been wondering about the stable yard (?) in reply #13 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=784838.msg6399046#msg6399046) and the buckets marked HTM.
I think it might be a bit demeaning for a landed gentleman to have his initials on a bucket, but could they be the name of the house? Something Manor, perhaps?
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Trouble is there are so many demolished country houses possibly without any pictorial record remaining.
The Death Duties Act 1911 was supposed to do away with them. I don't know the detail but there were relief laws later. Open it to the Public and occupy a small portion of the property, that sort of thing. Then there was English Heritage and the National Trust that tried to preserve as many as possible but I think that was post WWII. Also some bought as hotels or care homes etc.
I remember The Old House at Wexham, Bucks. The old gentleman who owned it died in the mid 1950'sish and it was demolished and modern luxury flats were built on the site. Great pity, probably 17th Century, panelled rooms and a priest hole. The grounds are still recognisable, but that's all. There was a son or grandson with two sons but they couldn't afford to keep it.
Another one was Hedgerley Park, Bucks. Demolished c1938 after death of Mrs Henry Stevenson, RHA. Site was quarried for a short while. It's all overgrown now, but noble trees and exotic bushes evidence it's former glory. There are a few prints of the house extant.
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Unfortunately it would be impossible to see the reverse of the images, they have been glued into the album.
You could try shining a bright light from behind. I just tried using my iphone torch behind an Edwardian postcard and was able to read the fountain pen writing on the back.
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I can't find a date for this photo but it looks early. Hinton house and gardens, Hinton Ampner. ::)
Pat
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Unfortunately it would be impossible to see the reverse of the images, they have been glued into the album.
You could try shining a bright light from behind. I just tried using my iphone torch behind an Edwardian postcard and was able to read the fountain pen writing on the back.
Unfortunately the pages are made of a thick card :(
Although this must be good in a way, as the photos and pages have survived in very good condition. I have other albums that were undoubtedly cheaper from contemporary times to this album that have not survived so well.
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Hi all,
Here we are.
Howbury Hall, Renhold.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Howbury-Hall-Renhold-Nr-Bedford-unused-old-pc-Blake-Edgar/162817702338?hash=item25e8b0f9c2:g:1wMAAOSwoBtW486q
Yorkslass
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Hi all,
Here we are.
Howbury Hall, Renhold.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Howbury-Hall-Renhold-Nr-Bedford-unused-old-pc-Blake-Edgar/162817702338?hash=item25e8b0f9c2:g:1wMAAOSwoBtW486q
Yorkslass
Brilliant!
However did you find that?
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Well done, Yorkslass!
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Interesting history https://whenthewelshcametobedford.wordpress.com/camps/howbury-hall/ (https://whenthewelshcametobedford.wordpress.com/camps/howbury-hall/)
And the current owners have a Facebook page. They might be very interested in your photos.
https://www.facebook.com/Howbury-Farm-1394080317472405/
(https://www.facebook.com/Howbury-Farm-1394080317472405/)
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Well done indeed :D
Yes that is Brilliant and yes how did you find it?
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Well done, Yorkslass! (And please tell us how!)
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Hi all,
Here we are.
Howbury Hall, Renhold.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Howbury-Hall-Renhold-Nr-Bedford-unused-old-pc-Blake-Edgar/162817702338?hash=item25e8b0f9c2:g:1wMAAOSwoBtW486q
Yorkslass
Many many thanks, I am extremely grateful to finally be able to put a name to the property. I can now look forward to some research time to identify the link :)
The crest is now more clear as well now the house is identified
http://www.myfamilysilver.com/pages/crestfinder-crest.aspx?id=163452&name=Polhill
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Thanks all
‘Twas the “Family Crest” that clinched it.
I thought the animal above the coronet looked like a hind, so googled “Mural Crown +Hind” and came up with this
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/19/238.htm
Pretty similar.
Bit of searching on the Polhill family and eventually found this –
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Photographic-Victorian-mother-children-Polhill-Turner/dp/B06XG1V74T
Luckily, the caption said the family lived at Howbury Hall, of which there is a fair bit of info.
Yorkslass
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Wow fantastic! :D
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Brilliant Yorkslass - well done.
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WOW!! Can only echo everyone elses comments! Brilliant find Yorkslass :) :) I confess to enjoying looking for quite a few hours and more and it`s so nice to know the outcome.
Mo
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I am very impressed Yorkslass. Amazing work!
I had a feeling that the crest would be key to finding this house. Well done!
I am thrilled that it has survived. Noytd, please pop back and let us know when you find the connection.
;D ;D ;D
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Grade 2 listed:
https://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101138189-howbury-hall-renhold#.WmJb9esmKrV
Substantially rebuilt in 1849 after fire. :)
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Brilliant Yorkslass!! You have always been so good at identifying old houses and you certainly haven't lost the knack ;D
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Conservatory has gone ... Shame..... If I were the current owner (I wish ;) ) I think I would be trying to replicate the original garden and drive using noytd's photos. It is an odd garden, but Probably fashionable at the time. :)
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Hi all,
Here we are.
Howbury Hall, Renhold.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Howbury-Hall-Renhold-Nr-Bedford-unused-old-pc-Blake-Edgar/162817702338?hash=item25e8b0f9c2:g:1wMAAOSwoBtW486q
Yorkslass
I just knew that you would be beavering away in the background and would come trumps, I thought to myself....if it's out there, and YL sees it....she will come up trumps...take a bow 8)
Carol
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Excellent work. I love this sort of thread.
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Well done Yorkslass, an excellent find ;D
Rosie
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Well done :)
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Thanks all
‘Twas the “Family Crest” that clinched it.
I thought the animal above the coronet looked like a hind, so googled “Mural Crown +Hind” and came up with this
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/19/238.htm
Pretty similar.
Bit of searching on the Polhill family and eventually found this –
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Photographic-Victorian-mother-children-Polhill-Turner/dp/B06XG1V74T
Luckily, the caption said the family lived at Howbury Hall, of which there is a fair bit of info.
Yorkslass
Excellent, Yorkslass ;D
I did try searching on deer, hart, buck, roe, roebuck, doe, fawn, brocket and stag! I even searched on hind, but my skills didn't match yours :-[
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The occupant of Howbury Hall in 1861 is Frederick C Polhill Turner, 'Landed proprietor of about 3000 acres retired from Army'. see Rg 9 / 992 / 132 / 10
The initials FCP tie up with those shown on the stone by the front door
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=784838.msg6401192#msg6401192
There are lots of references to the association of the Polhill family with Howbury Hall here
http://www.all-saints-church-renhold.org/polhillfamilyhistory.html
Given the 'horsey' photos early on in the thread this is interesting (from the link above)
In the 1890's Howbury Hall was vacated by Frederick and let to Robert Peck, who established the celebrated Howbury Stud. Peck won the Derby in 1898 with Jeddah
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Given the 'horsey' photos early on in the thread this is interesting (from the link above)
In the 1890's Howbury Hall was vacated by Frederick and let to Robert Peck, who established the celebrated Howbury Stud. Peck won the Derby in 1898 with Jeddah
Robert Peck, 'breeder of blood stock', together with family, visitors (including an 'owner of horses' a 'merchant' and a 'barrister at law' is in residence in 1891, with a staff of 8 + groom
RG 12 / 1252/ 160 / 16
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I'm not much good on horses, but this is Jeddah, who won the Derby in 1898:
https://tuckdb.org/items/75058
Any likeness to the ones above?
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Once again many many thanks to everybody who has helped with this.
Horse racing certainly makes sense to me, part of my ancestry involves the Yardly Stud near Birmingham which was run by the George family who produced a number of famous horses in Victorian times.
I have found these images of Robert Peck.
http://www.horseracinghistory.co.uk/hrho/action/viewDocument?id=891
His image does not appear to be in the photo album. However, I have tried to piece together his family and something of interest does appear.He had a daughter named Lillian Peck (1872-1961) who married a man named Antony Oliphant Sargeaunt (1876-1929). The marriage took place in Renhold on the 1 August 1899. What is striking about this link is that Mr. Sargeaunt was from Folkestone, Kent (from a Royal Navy family) - remember the Kent area connection, and once married the couple eventually settled in Kings Langley (not far from St. Alban's - remember the hunting photo). I have tried a quick search on the newspaper library to find an image of Antony or Lillian, but came up with no luck.
However, I did come across a photo of Antony's brother Bertram (1877-1978) - 31 August 1910 - The Sketch.
(https://image.ibb.co/hwJgJb/Screen_Shot_2018_01_20_at_12_47_57_pm.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://image.ibb.co/epZz4G/Screen_Shot_2018_01_20_at_12_49_48_pm.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
If I am right then these photos would be around 11 years apart.
I have only very briefly put this together, but I think it is a promising lead and the surname Peck does appear in my family, but is an unresearched part of the tree at present. I also had an instinct that the mansion would have been rented and that the photo album might have been some sort of wedding gift. The one missing link so far is Woodcote. I might be completely wrong, but so far the pieces seem to be there to merit my further research into this possibility.
I have sent a message on Facebook to Howbury Farm (aka Howbury Hall), as I have noticed that the property still remains in the Polhill family. So I shall see if they might have any information regarding the property during those times.
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Just for interest, Bertram Edward Sargeaunt was the author/compiler of the Isle of Man, Great War, Roll of Honour, and The Isle of Man and the Great War, and also A Military History of the Isle of Man.
http://imuseum.im/search/collections/places/mnh-site-213806.html
https://books.google.im/books/about/The_Isle_of_Man_and_the_Great_War.html?id=EkBzPQAACAAJ&redir_esc=y
https://www.amazon.com/military-history-Isle-Man/dp/B0007K5GNY
. . . and there's more!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Bertram-Edward-Sargeaunt/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A266239%2Cp_27%3ABertram%20Edward%20Sargeaunt
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I have spent a bit of time today trying to confirm or deny the link to the Peck family.
To being with the photo that appears to be the oldest, is one that shows the main featured woman when she was younger.
(https://preview.ibb.co/ctHg1w/Screen_Shot_2018_01_20_at_8_11_45_pm.png) (https://ibb.co/jTWVuG)
This is the best image I can find to compare the gentleman with Robert Peck. However, I am not very good at facial comparisons.
The next photo features wedding portraits from 1894 of Edith Peck and Harry Bates. The album contains a photo of a couple perhaps 10-15 years after the wedding portraits.
(https://preview.ibb.co/bXSg1w/Screen_Shot_2018_01_20_at_8_09_49_pm.png) (https://ibb.co/h4E5Tb)
Another image shows Howbury Hall (06 September 1899 - The Sketch) shortly after the death of Robert Peck. What I have noticed with this photo is the ivy on the house. This does not appear on the photographs that I have. However, the ivy does appear in World War I era photographs of the property. At a guess the images I have might therefore be during the 1890s?
Roughly the Peck family lived at Howbury Hall from November/December 1889 until around January 1900, when the widowed Mrs Beck went to live at Pemberley House in Bedford. Between 1900 and around 1903 the hall was occupied by James E. Platt, and in around 1903 the Poilhill family returned to take up residence.
(https://image.ibb.co/fGHEMw/06_September_1899_The_Sketch.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
As JenB has pointed out, there is a certain interest in horses. Looking through the album there are a few photographs specifically of horses. Whether they are race horses or not, I do not know. However, the photo below is perhaps interesting. It is the only image to display any form of livery.
All of his sons became racehorse trainers, the eldest in 1911 being described as the horse trainer for the Earl of Durham. Perhaps the other mystery country house might be to do with the sons and their work.
(https://preview.ibb.co/eDkFuG/SCAN0726.jpg) (https://ibb.co/doteMw)
This photo still remains a bit of a mystery as I have found no candidates for any of the people featured, as nobody who looks like they could be Robert Peck appears?
(https://preview.ibb.co/jdzfTb/Stitch_SCAN0652_SCAN0653.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dyTJEG)
Still plenty of research to be done, but hopefully I am now heading in the right direction.
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Noytd, I think your Peck / Sargeaunt link is a good one. Re the photos you have found (one the wedding announcement and the other from your album), I am not sure if these are the same man.
It could be that one of the images is reversed, but the men part their hair on different sides. The one is the wedding photo appears to have thinner and straighter hair (although it could have been combed and plastered down for the formal photo). Having noted these slight differences, the men do look very similar so even if they are not one and the same, they are probably closely related, possibly brothers.
Added: I am very keen for you to find out the name of your "main featured woman." :)
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Ruskie, I noticed the men's hair parted on different sides too, but I think the newspaper may have flipped him so that the bride and groom are looking towards each other. They do look very similar though, especially the shape of the ear.
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You probably already know this, but the man holding the horse is most likely a groom rather than a family member. I think the photo is of the horse, rather than him!
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The photos in your message #128 are taken around the same time as both men appear to be wearing the same two and half inch collar which if memory serves me right was in fashion between 1908 - 1912.
Carol
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Many kind thanks for the replies.
Bertrand Sargeaunt did indeed have a younger brother, his name was Alan but I have not been able to find a photo of him so far.
I have found an 1899 newspaper article about the wedding of Lillian Peck. The article stated that Robert Peck was not at the wedding due to ill health, which would explain the lack of father aged gentleman in the wedding photo.
My knowledge of wedding clothing/flowers s admittedly very poor. If this description matches then great, but if not back to the drawing board!
(https://preview.ibb.co/iuQnPG/IMG_3205.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h0P3yb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kx6u4G/IMG_3206.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cUZ3yb)
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I think that description fits the photo, though it is not terribly clear. I am not sure I see orchids in the bouquet, but I see a flower that looks a bit like a lisianthus. Also unsure about orange blossom on the skirt. I think the aigrette and veil tally, also probably the description of yoke and sleeves.
I'll be interested to see what others think. :)
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I was about to say the same about the orchids - I can’t see any in the bouquet, look a bit like roses to me. I agree about the transparent lace on the yoke, but not sure about the sleeves whether they fit that description.
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Her corsage looks interesting - lots of leaves .... which look like they could be orange leaves to accompany the orange blossom? Maybe the orchids are the long dangly blooms in the bouquet, perhaps mentioned because they were exotic? Orchids do come in various shapes and sizes. :)
There look to be blooms in her hair as there are some lighter coloured "bits" which may be blossoms peeking up from her headpiece, so there is more on her head than just the aigrette I think. :)
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I think the wedding photo is Edwardian.
Carol
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Many thanks for the replies.
Here is a much clearer zoom on the bride and the wedding photo. Of the mother's the article I found (Bedfordshire Mercury 04 August 1899) describes - "Mrs Robert Peck wore a very handsome gown of soft mauve moire and chiffon, and she wore a toque of the same colour. Mrs Sargeaunt, the bridegroom's mother, wore a silk dress with black lace over."
(https://preview.ibb.co/g98Tgw/Stitchwedding_photo_2_wedding_scan_1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nwNogw)
(https://preview.ibb.co/bx2bZG/Stitchwedding_photo_2_wedding_scan_1_copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gUp11w)
Going back to Woodcote, whilst going through the album I found the following two photographs. One a wedding photo, and one a family photo outside Woodcote. As you will see both couples appear in this photograph. As I have always thought, Woodcote once again appears to be a vital piece of the puzzle.
(https://preview.ibb.co/imJYEG/SCAN0764.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cVx4Mw)
(https://preview.ibb.co/b3XtEG/SCAN0705.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ikmygw)
For the moment I have ruled out the Polhill-Turner family, as nobody on their family tree would seem to fit the people in the photographs and the time periods involved.
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I feel like I am now making progress.
Robert Peck was married twice. His second wife seems to have something of a story! Annie Kentfield (nicknamed "Queenie" and from a family of famous billiard players) was married three times. Notably her grandfather, Edwin Kentfield (1802-1873), was regarded as being one of the greatest billiard players of his time.
Firstly in 1874 to William Wallace Rodger-Cunliffe of Hadlow Castle. The couple divorced in 1880 due to her affair with William Arthur Hoare-Smith. She married Mr Hoare-Smith straight after the divorce. Their daughter Mildred Queenie Amelia Hoare-Smith was born on the 15 November 1879 in Jersey - thereby illegitimate. His family lived in Whimpole House in Devon.
The Hoare-Smith marriage collapsed due to Annie's affair with James Peck and her second divorce came in 1887. She married Peck in 1888. The took up residence at Howbury Hall soon after. When James Peck died in 1899 he left his entire estate (including his business) to Annie. She would die in 1902 in Bedford.
On the 1901 Census Mildred is listed as being a nurse at St. Bartholomew's Hospital in London. The photo below is in the photo album, so either a coincidence or it is Mildred?
(https://preview.ibb.co/fO2hRw/SCAN0724.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h3LDYb)
There were two children, a boy and a girl, from Annie's first marriage. However, the daughter was unmarried and died in the United States
Mildred married a doctor named Leonard Gray on the 29 April 1908 in Malvern. His father had at one point been a clergyman in Bedford.
If the nurse is indeed Mildred, is she also the mystery woman who compiled the photo album? If this is the case then it would identify the women in the photo as being the Peck sisters, Annie, and Mildred? But maybe a big leap on my part!
(https://preview.ibb.co/nd3iYb/Screen_Shot_2018_01_21_at_12_55_55_pm.png) (https://ibb.co/imZqDb)
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Have you checked out Woodcote Apsley Guise Bedfordshire?
Jennifer
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A James Henry Renton lived there?
Jennifer
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Kelly's Directory 1898 has a Miss Bird at Woodcote, Woburn Sands (on the Bedfordshire/Buckinghamshire border)
http://www.mkheritage.co.uk/wsc/docs/1898%20Kellys.html
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A James Henry Renton lived there?
Jennifer
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7KM-THP
:)
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I have spent many hours researching potential candidates. The Peck family seemed to offer an excellent answer ... however, I was bothered by the fact that none of the potential women had a son. The photo album clearly shows that the mystery woman and her husband had a son. The album only covers him from the ages of 0 to about 4.
So I decided to look into the tenant of Howbury Hall after the Peck family - Major James Edward Platt (1857-1928).
(https://image.ibb.co/gfDS9G/Screen_Shot_2018_01_22_at_9_00_51_am.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://image.ibb.co/etyG3b/Screen_Shot_2018_01_22_at_9_00_38_am.png) (https://ibb.co/g49dGw)
(https://image.ibb.co/mFiNbw/Screen_Shot_2018_01_22_at_8_58_36_am.png) (https://ibb.co/bTJAUG)
(https://image.ibb.co/hsJzOb/Screen_Shot_2018_01_22_at_8_54_27_am.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
The first three images are all photographs from my album. The third image is from a biographical sketch of Major Platt.
http://www.stanwardine.com/genepic/Major_James_Edward_Platt_biography.pdf
Major Platt was divorced in 1900, and married an Italian woman named Elise Castelli (b.1876) in early 1901 before moving to Howbury Hall. Like the Robert Peck, Major Platt was an avid horsing man, as well as being a very keen huntsman and polo player.
I have been unable to find the couple on the 1911 census (which might confirm whether they had a son), but they show up together at Howbury Hall on the 1901 census. Indeed after 1901 I have so far been unable to locate any information regarding Elise.
Here is a portrait I found of Major Platt's mother on Ancestry, and a lady who appears on the wedding photo.
(https://preview.ibb.co/mbFXRw/Screen_Shot_2018_01_22_at_9_02_30_am.png) (https://ibb.co/eASOYb)
Comparing photos is not one of my strong points, so I do not know if the photos match or not?
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Some photographs of the child, presumably with grandmothers and parents.
(https://preview.ibb.co/kvEbmw/SCAN0657.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jHentb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mA4LDb/SCAN0690.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kcUntb)
(https://preview.ibb.co/kK0z6w/SCAN0844.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hEpsRw)
The "grandmother" holding the baby in the first photograph is the woman who was living in Woodcote. I will check out Woodcote Apsley Guise later :)
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Looking at the GRO entering surname Platt and mmn Castelli, I did not get any results for male or female births registered from about 1901 to 1910. The child could have been born elsewhere I presume.
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Elise Platt(widow) is granted probate of James Edward Platt's will in 1928.
There is a grant of probate in a will of 1957 of Elise Platt in a sum which suggests it is the correct person.Probate goes to two ladies,Violet Briggs and Joan Mary Cecilia Orczy-Barstow.
Regards
Roger
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Just in case he appears in any photo,I think this is one of the brothers of James Edward Platt,Samuel Radcliffe Platt,born circa 1845,married 1885,died 1902:-
http://www.stanwardine.com/melyniog_letters/name/Samuel_Radcliffe_Platt_-_born_1845.htm
Regards
Roger
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I have done a bit more research and I am inclined to think that the album does not relate to Major J.E. Platt.
(https://image.ibb.co/gEH5EG/Screen_Shot_2018_01_22_at_4_44_43_pm.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
Here is a photo that I found of him in 1909, just prior to him unsuccessfully standing for Parliament for Great Yarmouth in both General Elections in 1910 as a Liberal. He was living at Ingmanthorpe Hall, Wetherby, at the time. I am not sure that it matches the gentleman in my photographs.
There is also a record of him writing a letter to Winston Churchill in 1908 requesting his support for a Knighthood or Baronetcy, which he never received.
However, I have found a photo of Cecil Henry Polhill on Ancestry.
(https://preview.ibb.co/dR97Tb/Cambridge_7_Photo_Cecil_Henry_P_T_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jqDZ8b)
~TO my eye he does seem to resemble the gentleman with the hat with his hands in his pocket?
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As I previously mentioned I believe the wedding photo to be Edwardian as a number of clothing items are more typical of that era. The album photos appear to be from that period, if they were late Victorian, I would expect them to be Cabinet Cards and they appear to be postcard type photos.
Carol
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I've been doing a bit of digging.
I think the album is the Polhill family. The first photo is an 1860s image of Emily Polhill, the second image is from the wedding photo in my album. There seems to be a good resemblance, perhaps mother and daughter?
(https://preview.ibb.co/d2rJob/Screen_Shot_2018_01_24_at_7_47_39_pm.png) (https://ibb.co/mGgvZG)
I have not yet found any marriages 1900-1910 era, but I shall keep on searching :)
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Where does the 1860s date come from for the first photo....it looks later to me.
Carol
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Could be the same lady noytd, but with your album photo taken a few years later. They are holding their mouths the same way.
What do you think Carol? aged 45-50 in the first photo and 60s in the second? Or maybe a bit younger in both? :-\ How do you think that fits in age, possible date and fashion wise?
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From the attached photo on alamy. The image does appear to match Howbury Hall (note the door bell and stonework). To be the identified people the photo would need to be from the 1860s.
Copyright image removed
However, if Alamy is wrong with the date and identification ... when the Pohill family returned in around 1904 there would have been teenage children from the next generation.
But the 1870s to the 1890s would be ruled out due to the family history.
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Seeing the whole photo makes a big difference...I would have said it was 1870s but it could be late 1860s. It does look like the same house.
Carol
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Could be the same lady noytd, but with your album photo taken a few years later. They are holding their mouths the same way.
What do you think Carol? aged 45-50 in the first photo and 60s in the second? Or maybe a bit younger in both? :-\ How do you think that fits in age, possible date and fashion wise?
There is a strong likeness so most likely Mother and Daughter.
Carol
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Emily, as Beatrice Emily, was born 1q 1866, Bedford, 3b, 377, if that's any help.
I assume that she's the little one in the chair.
Gadget
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Emily, as Beatrice Emily, was born 1q 1866, Bedford, 3b, 377, if that's any help.
I assume that she's the little one in the chair.
Gadget
Well that clinches it really doesn't it. :) How old is little Beatrice in that photo? Two? :-\
Photo taken in 1868?
If Cecil is born in 1860 he looks younger than 8 in this photo doesn't he? I suppose Alice could be 12.
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It might be worth double checking your photo of Cecil Polhill.I have found the following which suggests the photo may be of his brother Arthur,and Cecil,as shown below,looks a ittle like the gentleman in the "Woodcote" photo in #140.
http://www.wellsofgrace.com/biography/china/seven.htm
Regards
Roger
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Many thanks for the help and info.
Despair, I found that photo this morning on Ancestry, but named as Arthur Polhill.
copyright image removed
This website shows an image of Cecil Polhill.
http://www.pentecostalpioneers.org/pioneerslist.html
On the following image of the "Cambridge Seven" Cecil is number 5 and Arthur is number 6.
copyright image removed
I have compiled a list of Polhill family weddings and one wedding would match the Edwardian era as pointed out by Carol.
Arthur Polhill was married twice. His second wife was Agnes Augusta Hart (1876-1962). The marriage occurred in Nottingham on the 25 June 1908. What is of interest is that Arthur and Agnes had a son in 1909. He sadly died in 1922, but perhaps the images of the child would fit in with his time. I have not been able to find a detailed description of the bride at the marriage, but I have found this.
(https://image.ibb.co/gp1zTb/Screen_Shot_2018_01_25_at_11_23_15_am.png)
The only downside is that my photo only shows two women that appear to be bridesmaids and not four.
I have not found Woodcote, but I have found a potential place of interest. As has been pointed out Emily Polhill lived between 1826 and 1913. Her eldest daughter Alice lived between 1856 and 1931. She had married a Reverend Challis but had no children. During the early 1900s Alice appears to have lived with a Polhill aunt in a property dubbed "The Cottage" in Blunham. A Google image search of Blunham appears to show similar styles of houses, although I have not found the exact house.
The next generation of Polhill's did not start marrying until around 1917 onwards.
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Found this site, which looks interesting, but a lot of it is private.
There is a contact email at the bottom of the page which you could perhaps try noytd.
The fourth photo is outside Howbury Hall, of an old lady I take to be Emily Polhill, with her two sons, Cecil and Arthur, and their wives.
I agree with Carol - your wedding photo is Edwardian.
The couples in the photo on the website are wearing Edwardian dress, but are much older than the people in your photo.
https://pconline.org.uk/#
Yorkslass
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Many thanks for the link Yorklass. The website looks like it is run by the current Polhill family who also run the Facebook page that was mentioned previously. I have tried contacting them but so far no response.
I managed to Log onto the website, it contains many interesting scans of letters, accounts and information regarding Cecil Polhill during his time in China.
I agree that the fourth photo looks to be interesting. I am not saying they are the same people, but it is interesting to see the family photo I have taken at "Woodcote" beside the one on the Polhill website.
copyright images removed
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This may interest you if you haven't already seen it:
http://www.all-saints-church-renhold.org/polhillmemorials.html
Be careful not to post internet images that may be subject to Copyright...include a link instead :)
Carol
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I came across an address of "The Cottage" and noticed the general similarity of the houses to Woodcote(other than the "Mock Tudor"element) also.Ihaven't found a match for Woodcote in the area however.
There appears to be two "The Cottage" addresses associated with the Polhills in the 1911 census.One with Georgiana(born 1829),which I believe is the one we both have identified,and the other with Cecil(born 1860),adjacent to Howbury Hall.
Regards
Roger
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I found a website with a photo of "The Cottage" Blunham. Although it is similar to Woodcote I don't think it is the same house. I have also posted a link to "The Cottage" on streetview and you can see the old houses to the right don't match the ones on the Woodcote photo.
http://bedsarchives.bedford.gov.uk/CommunityArchives/Blunham/77And81HighStreetBlunham.aspx
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lep/ "The Cottage" streetview
I have done a lot of "walking" around villages on streetview over the last few nights, no luck so far but I will keep hunting. At least I have seen some lovely villages ;D
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There appears to be a "man of the cloth" in the left hand photo in #164.I wonder if he is the husband of Alice Kate Challis(nee Polhill,married 1892)?Alice is the sister of Cecil(born 1860).
Alice is with Georgiana at The Cottage in 1911.
Regards
Roger
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Once again many kind thanks to everybody who has helped and contributed to this thread, it has been very much appreciated. The main question of the threat was to identify the house, which has amazingly been done.
I have established a link on my family tree to the Polhill family, and I have now built up a thorough snapshot of the family during Edwardian times. By process of elimination the "mystery woman" is most likely the second wife of Arthur Polhill - Agnes Augusta Hart (1876-1962), the couple having married in 1908. Another clue that leads to this is the baby male in the album from ages 0 to around 3/4. This would fit in with their son Edward Hamilton Polhill (1909-1922). However, I have no photo comparison for Agnes, so for the moment the most likely candidate.
Woodcote remains a mystery. With the tree that I have now compiled I have searched the 1901 census and 1911 census for Woodcote, but no recognisable names appear. What is certain is that the creator of the album toured the south coast. This raises perhaps the possibility that the cottage was rented/borrowed during this trip. So perhaps in this sense Woodcote may, after all, be something of a red herring.
I shall keep on searching to try and positively identify the people in the album, but thanks to root chat I now have a good starting point from which to proceed forwards :)
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Hi noytd
I have just sent you a pm regarding this post.
Regards
Sarah
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Perhaps,then,the "man of the cloth" is the Rev. Frederick Hart,father of Augusta.
Regards
Roger
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Perhaps,then,the "man of the cloth" is the Rev. Frederick Hart,father of Augusta.
Regards
Roger
I would guess that the clergyman is Arthur Polhill and the other gentleman his brother Cecil Polhill. Before he became a missionary in China he had been brought up to become the clergyman on the family estate. I'm not sure about the women, as Cecil's wife had died in the early 1900s and he never remarried.
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Hi Noytd, I think the current Polhill family at Howbury are your best bet to help unravel the mystery. You said you have tried to contact them with no response so far through their Facebook page, but have you tried to contact them through the link Yorkslass posted https://pconline.org.uk/#
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I will write a letter direct to Howbury. Reading through the books written about Cecil Polhill in modern times all speak highly of the help provided by the family.
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It has been fascinating to follow is thread. Noytd, please come back and let us know if you uncover anything more. :)
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I have established a link on my family tree to the Polhill family, and I have now built up a thorough snapshot of the family during Edwardian times. By process of elimination the "mystery woman" is most likely the second wife of Arthur Polhill - Agnes Augusta Hart (1876-1962), the couple having married in 1908. Another clue that leads to this is the baby male in the album from ages 0 to around 3/4. This would fit in with their son Edward Hamilton Polhill (1909-1922). However, I have no photo comparison for Agnes, so for the moment the most likely candidate.
There is a record on Anc****y (original image) for the death of an Edward Hamilton Polhill in China, 23 July 1911, age 22 months, father Arthur Polhill, missionary. :-\
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Another photograph of Arthur Polhill here (4th row down at the end)
I think the lady must be Agnes Augusta, his second wife.
There is an obvious age difference.
The three young men behind are probably his sons by his first wife.
So personally, I don't think Agnes Augusta is the "mystery woman" in the album photos.
http://www.ridley.cam.ac.uk/about/ridley-story/gallery
Yorkslass
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Great find Yorkslass! After looking at that photo I have to agree with you, I don't think Agnes Augusta is the mystery woman, however the 2 young children do look very similar to those in Noytd's photos.
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Yes well found Yorkslass, could two of these boys be in the family photo in front of the Hall, snapshot attached hopefully. it seems they Arthur and first wife Alice had 4 boys Douglas Arthur b 1889, Stanley Frederick b1891 Montague Cecil b 1892 and baby Theodore Robert b 1901 (?) .
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The couple went off back to China leaving the three eldest boys in England and just took the baby I was wondering if you think is the same family in the photo, it might have been taken in the summer of 1902 as they went back to China in the October.
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I have now been in contact with the archivist at Howbury Hall.
The album is nothing to do with Polhill family and contains no images of any members of the family. Likewise Woodcote does not relate to the Polhill family and there is no mention of any property with that name within the area (estate) of the hall.
It is believed that the album relates to the family of James Edward Platt (1857-1928) who lived at Howbury between 1901 and 1903. Due to this narrow time period and the placing in the album of the wedding photo points to Elise Castelli (1876-1957) as being the creator of the album. As mentioned she married James Platt in 1901.
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I have been looking and looking through the album for any further clues. Straight after the photos of the unidentified album appears a page showing another unidentified country house. It is a different house as its more gothic in look and has an extra level. However, a clue is provided with the initials HTM on the buckets. Presumably this house is somehow connected (whether by family or locality).
(https://preview.ibb.co/nccvzw/IMG_3001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gx6Ymb)
Bruntwood Hall, Cheadle before the chimney stacks were removed?
http://cheadlevillage.net/local-history/bruntwood-hall (http://cheadlevillage.net/local-history/bruntwood-hall)
https://cheadlecivicsociety.org/contents/en-uk/d287.html (https://cheadlecivicsociety.org/contents/en-uk/d287.html).
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Well spotted :D and that fits in nicely with James Platt as he ran a
racing yard stud farm there before moving to Howbury
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Good evening,
Not the same house I would say. The house in the OPs photo shows a large bay window between the the two gable ends. The windows in the gables have flat tops and no balustrade between the gables.
Bruntwood house has no bay window in that position but a small bay window on each end below the gables and a balustrade between gables either side of the dormer. The windows in the gables have arched tops.
If you go to the "Douglas Archives" there is a b/w photo of the house from the same era as OPs photo which shows it to be the same then as the modern photo.
I looked also at Abner House which is similar but still not correct.
John915
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John915 just beat me to it, but I was going to say more or less the same as he has about the bay window and the windows in the gables.
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Oh that's a shame :( I can see what you mean about the windows etc.
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If you're now looking at the Platt family, this site appears to have been created by a family member:
http://www.stanwardine.com/
It includes a biographical sketch of Major James Edward Platt at
http://www.stanwardine.com/genepic/Major_James_Edward_Platt_biography.pdf
I've skimmed through it and found references to Chesterfield Park near Saffron Walden (probably Chesterford), and Manton in Rutland, plus a few places in Scotland.
From a note at the end of the biography, it appears that the site owner might have access to many of the family records, and there's an email address for him. Over to you...
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If you're now looking at the Platt family, this site appears to have been created by a family member:
http://www.stanwardine.com/
It includes a biographical sketch of Major James Edward Platt at
http://www.stanwardine.com/genepic/Major_James_Edward_Platt_biography.pdf
I've skimmed through it and found references to Chesterfield Park near Saffron Walden (probably Chesterford), and Manton in Rutland, plus a few places in Scotland.
From a note at the end of the biography, it appears that the site owner might have access to many of the family records, and there's an email address for him. Over to you...
Many thanks for the link and info. I have contacted the site owner and they have stated that no members of the Platt family appear in the album.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=784786.18
Upon a suggestion in this thread I have contacted Kent Archives who have confirmed they have first owner details on two cars that appear in the album. Hopefully I should get the registration details next week and fingers crossed a name that I recognise.
Polhill and Platt reliably ruled out, which takes the spotlight back to the Peck family.
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There is still some hope noytd. Please let us know what you find out.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed. :)
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Good evening,
The house is not Chesterford or Manton, they look completely different.
John915
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There is still some hope noytd. Please let us know what you find out.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed. :)
I have been trawling through the British Newspaper Library, and discovered that Howbury was still being rented out during the Edwardian era, when Cecil Polhill returned to China.
1907-1908 - Commander Philip Charles Knightley Wolfe Murray (1856-1932)
1909-1913 - Major Geoffrey Carr Glyn (1864-1933)
A look into both men produced disappointing results. Neither, at first glance, would appear to match the photographs by associated geographical locations or ages and marriages.
I have also located photographs of Robert Peck's sons, but they do not appear to match any of the males in my album. The Peck's were clean shaven, whilst the men in the photo album are moustached.
However, I am hopeful on the car registrations. Fingers crossed the first registered owners will link into the album :)
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I have found a photo in the Northampton Mercury 05 March 1937. Could these two be the same man?
https://ibb.co/iLHo3m
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I would say it was highly likely.
Carol
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I thought I would forget Howbury Hall for a second and returned to the clue of Woodcote.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=784786.18
The man photographed in the newspaper article was Herbert Kearsley Fry (1874-1937). His widowed mother lived at a house called Woodcote in Eastbourne. In 1905 he married Margaret Elizabeth Selwyn (1872-1930), and together they had one son. Margaret did have links to the south coast and the Isle of Wight. SO far so good ...
Only downside ... in the wedding photo I would guess that it is not Herbert Fry who is getting married?
https://ibb.co/cMP83m
There is also no obvious link to Howbury, but I have wondered if the mystery lady might have been in service as something along the lines of a governess/nurse. My reason for this hypothesis is that the people in the Howbury Hall photographs do not appear again in the album.
Just a bit of guesswork, but hopefully the car registrations might go someway towards solving this.
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I have received the car registration details:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=784786.new#new
However, the car owner has no obvious links to Howbury Hall.
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Do you have the photos of the country house mystery, I am researching a wealthy family and would like to see the unidentified photos to see if I can help
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Hello Dave, and welcome to RootsChat :)
If you go to the opening page of this thread, all will be revealed:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=784838
Carol
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Hi
Two of the photos you have put up are of My Great Grand uncle Harry Dawson Bates and his wife Edith Jane Peck