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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: GRSt on Monday 01 January 18 15:12 GMT (UK)
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It appears to be a shield with a knights head above, two sickle moons in both the top right and left corners, an inverted "V" across the middle of the shield and possible a five leafed plant (clover?) at the bottom.
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Hi,
I think the blazon (heraldic description) should be "Azure a chevron Argent between in chief two crescents and in base a mullet Or." Papworth's Ordinary gives the armiger as Docminique of London.
Liz
PS Welcome to Rootschat!
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Looks more like a 'cinquefoil' then a 'mullet' to me Liz? More rounded than a mullet?
Having said that, can't find anything with that description and a 'cinquefoil'!
I'd agree with 'azure' - blue is usually coloured with horizontal lines I think.
And they are termed 'crescents'.
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Yes definitely Azure with those horizontal line. I thought it was a cinquefoil at first but couldn't find anything and then thought it must be Docminique as everything else fitted. He seems to have been an MP with Huguenot origins. :D
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Thanks for responses. I'm not clued up on this topic at all so, if possible, would very much appreciate a simplified version of your responses. This crest was on a ring that I recently found in an old wallet belonging to my father and was curious as to why he might have had it. Is it the crest of a specific family/clan and is there any significance attached to it?
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My surname is Stewart. Is there perhaps any connection?
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Hi,
I’m out at the moment but will try to explain it all later if no one else does before - but the name associated with these arms (it’s not a crest) is Docminique.
Liz
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There were different systems of "hatching" in use, and the horizontal lines could also mean Or (gold/yellow) or Gules (red).
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatching_(heraldry)
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There were different systems of "hatching" in use, and the horizontal lines could also mean Or (gold/yellow) or Gules (red).
I didn't realise that - thank you!
However, even using Or (gold) or Gules (red) I can find no trace of these arms with either a 'mullet' or a 'cinquefoil'. The closest is still the arms of Docminique but I can see no link between the person who bore those arms and Stewart. Having said that I am guessing that Stewart may have Scottish links and I know nothing about Scottish heraldry.
As for the difference between arms and a crest - the latter is the bit you see sitting on top of the shield. The 'arms' are on the shield and are described in heraldic language which is called a blazon.
But, unless you know of a link to the Docminique family I think we need to look again further afield to find the origin of these arms, specifically with a cinquefoil (five leaved plant at the bottom) rather than a mullet (looks like a star)
Liz
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Another point!
There is no such thing as a "Family" crest, or coat-of-arms!
Arms were granted to a named individual and, in England at least, were passed down through the male line.
The helmet isn't open, or barred, so this isn't nobility :-\
May be a clan chief's insignia, though?
The general rule for helmets (as part of the crest) is:
gold helmet with bars for the royal family;
silver helmet with gold bars for peers;
steel helmet with gold bars for the non-peerage Scottish feudal baron;
open steel helmet shown affronté for knights and baronets;
steel tournament helm for Scottish clan chiefs;
closed steel helmet for esquires and gentlemen.
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Good evening,
There were different systems of "hatching" in use, and the horizontal lines could also mean Or (gold/yellow) or Gules
I have to disagree KG
Spotted = or/gold
Vertical =gules/red
Horizontal = azure/blue
Diagonal l to r = vert/green
" r to l = purpure/purple
The crescent is usually used to denote a second son but can also mean "honoured by royalty"
The inverted chevron means something important has been achieved.
I believe there is also a meaning for the helm facing right instead of left, will look that up.
John915
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Good evening,
There were different systems of "hatching" in use, and the horizontal lines could also mean Or (gold/yellow) or Gules
I have to disagree KG
Spotted = or/gold
Vertical =gules/red
Horizontal = azure/blue
Diagonal l to r = vert/green
" r to l = purpure/purple
The crescent is usually used to denote a second son but can also mean "honoured by royalty"
The inverted chevron means something important has been achieved.
I believe there is also a meaning for the helm facing right instead of left, will look that up.
John915
Gold/yellow/or is usually spotted, I grant you, but Franquart (1623) used horizontal lines in his system.
Likewise Red/gules is usually vertical lines, but can also be horizontal lines: Butkens (1626), Caramuel (1636), Lobkowitz (1639-1642) and Gelenius (1645).
Blue is usually horizontal lines, but can also be spots (Franquart), diagonal lines (Butkens, de Rouck and Gelenius), or vertical lines (Caramuel and Lobkowitz).
If you read the wikipedia article I mentioned, it will explain in greater detail.
The crescent is indeed used as a cadency mark - but only singly, and not in pairs.
Chevrons are normally shown point upwards.
I have never seen an inverted chevron (i.e. point downwards) in a coat-of-arms.
It allegedly resembles roof rafters.
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Good evening,
I am unable to see your link KG, it gives me a page with no info on it just some headings.
But I believe all the names you quoted are european systems which would be uncompatible with one another. If this coat of arms is english then they would give you the wrong colours when painted.
I suddenly realised that the helm faces sinister because it is on a signet ring. So when pressed into the wax would give the c of a correctly with helm facing dexter.
John915
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Quoting from that wikipedia page:
Hatchings are distinctive and systematic patterns of lines and dots used for designating heraldic tinctures or other colours on uncoloured surfaces, such as woodcuts or engravings, seals and coins. Several systems of hatchings were developed during the Renaissance as an alternative to tricking, the earlier method of indicating heraldic tinctures by use of written abbreviations. The present day hatching system was developed during the 1630s by Silvester Petra Sancta and Marcus Vulson de la Colombière. Some earlier hatching methods were also developed, but did not come into wide use.
Most known hatching systems developed in the Low Countries, as that was where copper-plate engraving was mainly carried out.
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Well done KG, interesting stuff. Crescents were used in Scotland by the Seton's for example,
www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/seton.html
Skoosh.
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Thanks, Skoosh ;D
From that document:
Pasone of Gumbo: Azure, two crescents Argent in chief and a mullet Or in base
Kirkaldie of Grange: Gules, two crescents in chief and a mullet in base all Or
and
<no name>: Sable, a chevron between two crescents in chief and a mullet in base all Argent (SN135)
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A couple of thoughts on the thread...
Is there any chance they may not be crescents, but horseshoes?
Secondly, as the hatching used for colours has changed over time, is it worth checking if there is any form of marking (hallmark?) on the ring to indicate age?
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Better picture of ring and only marking inside ring
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Good morning,
So the ring is not British made as no hallmarks. 9 carat gold but not sure which country used that mark, not Germany as they use/used a K for carat.
What do we know of the families KG has quoted, could 2 crescents denote twin second sons?
Definately crescents and not horseshoes.
John915
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Twin births ALWAYS indicate which twin was born first; for inheritance purposes ;D
(I am a twin, and the father of twins, and the grandfather of twins :D)
So 2 sons being twins would have different cadency marks.
Also, the cadency mark is invariably in the top centre of the arms.
The 2 crescents on the ring are absolutely not cadency marks.
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This looks to me to be a variation of the Durie arms from Scotland :"Azure a chevron Argent between three crescents Argent" (recorded 1562 and 1591) with the lower crescent altered to denote a junior branch. A common form of "differencing".
Maec
P.S. I agree the bottom symbol is a cinquefoil, not a mullet.
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Well Done Maec! :D
Skoosh.
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Yes, well done.
Could this be it?: from https://www.duriefamily.co.uk/arms-tartan-arms-heraldry/durie-arms-and-crest
John Durie of Grange in the Parish of Burntisland Bears azure a Cheverone argent betwixt three crescents all within a bordur invecked or Above the shield ane helmet befitting his degree mantled gules doubled argent
I don't know what the words mantling & doubled mean....
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No, not John Durie of Grange. The arms he carries have been differenced by the addition of a border (bordure), so not the same branch, but certainly related. So you're on the right track. :)
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Well done, MaecW ;D
I will freely admit to not being great with Scottish Heraldry (or Family History!).
No Scots in my family tree, which goes back to mid-1500s.
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The mantling is the cloth below the helmet guys! red & showing silver, nothing to do with gas-mantles! ;D
Skoosh.
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Thanks Skoosh. My son had a craze on heraldry in the early 1970s but I've forgotten it all.... :-[
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I should point out that, whilst there is a reasonable chance this is a Durie coat of arms, we have yet to find who it belonged to.
Can GRSt advise whether there are Durie connections in the family ? A grand-parent or great-grandparent perhaps ?
Maec
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I have records going back to the early 1800's on my mothers side with surnames of Diack and Gordon. On my fathers side records go back to around the early 1700's with surnames of Russell, Bowie, Taylor, Bruce and Paterson.
Thanks for all your interest. I find all your comments quite fascinating. The ring maybe has no family relevance but it would nevertheless to know its origin.