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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Elliebean54 on Tuesday 02 January 18 20:43 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone I'm new here and had a couple of questions related to my family history, and this seemed the right pace to put them.
Firstly, DNA testing:
I know general testing is not a very reliable source, but my mother has been researching her family on and off for many years and wanted to have her DNA tested out of interest and to see if it could clarify anything. It has instead thrown up a real mystery. She has a huge amount of scandanavian DNA - in fact a significant majority - with no known origin (beyond known east coast British suggesting trace Norse remnant). Matches all lead back to one place - a family in central Sweden which includes a close (1st cousin once removed/second cousin) relative. Also multiple other matches with Swedish ancestors.
I assume others have come across this sort of thing? It's not just small margins that can be disregarded, it suggests she should have a Swedish parent, or at least more than one grandparent with mixed scandinavian ancestors, yet there's no family history or stories to back this up.
Of course I'm thinking someone's been economical with the truth re parentage, but she has the birth certificates of all her close relatives (except one grandmother - more later)
Was lying on birth certificates common practice? She was a war baby, her parents born at the turn of the century.
That aside, anyone know how to go about researching family history in Sweden?!
On an unrelated question, the grandmother I mentioned. This has driven my mother mad over many years of research, but her maternal grandmother simply appeared on a marriage certificate, gave birth to several children, and disappeared (supposedly died).
She's never been able to find a birth or death certificate for her, or anything on her background, no family stories, just a name and age at marriage.
How common is this? Is there anything anyone could suggest we could do who has encountered a stubborn mystery like this before? My mother's not getting any younger and it preys on her mind that she knows nothing about the origin of this lady, with the only clues a very common name and surname, and her DNA.
Thank you for your time
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Welcome to Rootschat
She's never been able to find a birth or death certificate for her, or anything on her background, no family stories, just a name and age at marriage.
Have you got the actual marriage certificate - what information does it give on there, eg status on marriage, age and name and occupation of father?
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Welcome to Rootschat
She's never been able to find a birth or death certificate for her, or anything on her background, no family stories, just a name and age at marriage.
Have you got the actual marriage certificate - what information does it give on there, eg status on marriage, age and name and occupation of father?
Thank you for your reply.
I just double checked - all the marriage certificate had was her father's name and he was listed as deceased, no occupation. My mother said she suspects from a likely census entry she was in service before her marriage so there's no real idea where her original home was.
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If you want to give us her name and age and father's name someone may be able to help.
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Hi
Her marriage details = addresses, witnesses, full date, ref, husband?
If her children are no longer with us then why not tell all detail from their births?
Confirm that your mother's birth details are as expected? PM to Groom or another rootschatter to confirm them ( do not publish publicly )
Rough details of her birth/death.
Her day/month of her birthday does help.
Did she speak with an accent?
Ray
ps AND WELCOME TO ROOTSCHAT !
pps AND HAPPY NEW YEAR !
ppps :)
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Welcome to rootschat Ellie.
I think there might be some members able to help you with Scandanavian research (sadly I can't remember which specific members so I can contact them).
Your best bet would be to start a new thread possibly on the "Other countries/Europe" board, mentioning Scandanavia in the subject heading, and hopefully this will attract the attention of someone able to help you. Supply as many details, facts and figures as you can.
Regarding mystery grandmother, my first thought is that she may have run off with another man and left her family. The lack of information and telling family that "she died" may have been concocted to cover up a scandal. As others have suggested, if you give us as many details as you can we may be able to uncover something for you. (of course, she may really have died, which is another good reason that no one passed any information about her on to family :) )
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Hi
Her marriage details = addresses, witnesses, full date, ref, husband?
If her children are no longer with us then why not tell all detail from their births?
Confirm that your mother's birth details are as expected? PM to Groom or another rootschatter to confirm them ( do not publish publicly )
Rough details of her birth/death.
Her day/month of her birthday does help.
Did she speak with an accent?
Ray
Not really sure at first how much detail we're supposed to give - all her children are long deceased if we're still on the grandmother.
Her name was Mary Ann Palmer, and was 23 in 1889 when she married but we don't even know her exact year of birth. Her father was Peter Palmer and deceased by this time, no age or occupation. No mother's name, but she was supposed to have had a sister, and this suggestion she was in service prior to marriage. The only other story about her origins was they were possibly Irish immigrants. My mother's DNA suggests she is around a quarter Irish which could confirm this, but her remaining DNA (that wasn't swedish) was Spanish of all things. Again, no history on that, but certainly a family line in jet black hair, black eyes and dark skin seems to confirm this.
Mary Ann had 4 surviving children in the 1890s. By the 1901 census there's no trace of her, the family history being she had died, but there's no death certificate anywhere - my mother has searched everywhere she can think of for one over many years, just like the absent birth certificate. My grandmother (her daughter) was 4 in 1901 and certainly had no memory of her mother.
All birth certificates are apparently in order, but one lingering question in my mind has always been that these were desperately poor people who only paid for a marriage licence when they had to. Every direct ancestor from my grandparents back gave birth to their first child less than 9 months after marriage, which gives plenty of scope for paternity questions within the family.
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Regarding mystery grandmother, my first thought is that she may have run off with another man and left her family. The lack of information and telling family that "she died" may have been concocted to cover up a scandal. As others have suggested, if you give us as many details as you can we may be able to uncover something for you. (of course, she may really have died, which is another good reason that no one passed any information about her on to family :) )
Thank you for your welcome and suggestions re scandanavia.
And - yes, I always suspected she left and they covered up. This was victorian England and it wouldn't be the first time a family was told someone had died to cover up the shame of scandal, especially when a woman leaves. In which case, I have speculated - did she change her name? It would be like looking for a needle in a haystack, only DNA could help with that, only then if she had other children.
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Welcome to rootschat
Who did Mary Ann Palmer marry and where.
Where does she give as her place of birth on census and where was she living after she married.
Rosie
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Welcome to Rootschat. This is a brilliant site full of really, really helpful folk. May I suggest that you break down your research needs into small parcels that you can post to different boards (such as suggested by Ruskie).
There could well be a merchant seaman connection if your ancestor was from an east coast port?
Have you used the Familytreedna and gedmatch resources? They are free for some DNA results and the instructions on how to upload them are on each site.
It might be rather difficult for any Swedish "connections" if they were unaware of a "free spirit' ancestor!! Not all approaches are welcomed.
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"Not really sure how much detail we're supposed to give" - as much as possible is always the answer!
I still can't see anywhere on here that you have put who she married!
What was her married name? Who was her husband? Where were they married?
Do you have the actual certificate?
Who were the witnesses?
All these details help to try and find out who she was.
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Could you please tell us the names and birth dates (or years if you do not know the exact date) of all of Mary Ann's children?
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Welcome to rootschat
Who did Mary Ann Palmer marry and where.
Where does she give as her place of birth on census and where was she living after she married.
Rosie
Good question - if there was a place of birth, my mother has never mentioned it, though she was definately on the 1891 census, and possibly 1881 as the housemaid. I am relatively new to all this, I'll question my mother further, I'll assume if it's listed it will be somewhere in the east end of London.
She married a Richard Jones in 1889 in I think either Whitechapel or Shoreditch.
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This looks like the marriage registration :)
Marriage June qtr 1889
Jones Richard
Palmer Mary Ann
Mile End reg district 1c 794
St Paul, Bow Common 22 Apr 1889
Richard was 26 and Mary Ann 22 - both of 12 Lee Street
Richards father was Richard Jones occ labourer
Mary Anns was as you said Peter Palmer occ Labourer
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Peter Palmer was a labourer, and it does not say that he is deceased?
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Hello and welcome.
I found that marriage but discounted it as she is 22 yrs and her father is not shown as deceased. :)
We can start looking now. As you will have gathered we love a mystery.
Sorry we crossed.
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Thank you everyone for all your replies, I can see this is going to be a very helpful board!
"Not really sure how much detail we're supposed to give" - as much as possible is always the answer!
I still can't see anywhere on here that you have put who she married!
What was her married name? Who was her husband? Where were they married?
Do you have the actual certificate?
Who were the witnesses?
All these details help to try and find out who she was.
Yes, my mother has a copy of the original marriage certificate of Mary Ann Palmer and Richard Jones in 1889, one of the few certain records of her.
I'll need to check the exact place and witness names and get back to you, but east end of London for sure.
Her children were born in 1890 (Richard) 1892 (Mary) 1894 (Anna Marie) and 1896 (Ettie)
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Marriage at Paul, Bow Common, 22nd April 1889, she was 22 and Richard 26, both of 12 Lee Street, both made their marks, and witnesses were Benjamin Moneypenny (?) and Esther Juggins (?).
How many Mary Palmers are there marrying Richard Jones?
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Thank you, this is great information you have given me already.
I'm relying on what my mother told me from memory - she has a hard copy of the marriage certificate, but it's likely a while since she looked at it, and she's clearly misremembered age and father's details off the top of her head. I can't call her back tonight but I'll ask her more tomorrrow.
Her paternal side she's traced back a long way and always frets that she's been so stuck with her mother's.
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Marriage at Paul, Bow Common, 22nd April 1889, she was 22 and Richard 26, both of 12 Lee Street, both made their marks, and witnesses were Benjamin Moneypenny (?) and Esther Juggins (?).
How many Mary Palmers are there marrying Richard Jones?
Well, that has to be it. The family certainly lived in Lee Street in the early 20th century, that I know. Juggins and Moneypenny? No idea who they are, no one in the family tree with such outlandish names! It would be easy to trace if we did. Sounds like witnesses dragged off the street?
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Richard Charles JONES birth registered Sep qtr 1890 Stepney (1c/413) mmn PALMER
Mary Elizabeth JONES Mar qtr 1893 Mile End Old Town (1c/544)
Annie Maria JONES Mar qtr 1895Mile End Old Town (1c/501)
Ettie JONES Jun qtr 1896 Stepney (1c/452)
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Alf and Esther Juggins are living in Mile End Old Town in 1891 308/62
Esther Varce married Mr J.
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This looks like the family in 1901 at Salmons Lane, Stepney. Richard is described as widower.
Richard C Jones 41
Richard C Jones 10
Mary E Jones 8
Annie M Jones 6
Ettie Jones 5
250/42
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Mary Ann born Limehouse in 1891 census, age 22.
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Possible if a little older than marriage/1891 census:
Mary Anne Palmer baptised 17th January 1864 at St Botolph Bishopsgate, City of London, England
Father: Robert Palmer Mother: Mary Anne Palmer
Added:
Says she was born 1856 (!) so ignore.
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In 1911 the same family are
Moderator comment: 1911 census details removed, you may only post information from a free search. Our policy has not changed
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=355486.0
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Has anyone spied a death for Mary Ann between 1896 (birth of Ettie) and 1901 census where Richard claims to be a widower?
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That aside, anyone know how to go about researching family history in Sweden?!
Hi Elliebean54
I will gladly help you out with any Swedish questions.
Ian
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Mary Ann Palmer age 17 could be living at 16 New Road, Mile End, in 1881, a domestic servant in the Joseph family, born London.
Birth?
Mary Ann Palmer mmn Collins June quarter 1864 in Stepney
(but cannot see a Robert Palmer marriage suitable)
Added:
See below, I did mean Peter Palmer not Robert, and anyway there are other Mary Ann Palmer births around.
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Has anyone spied a death for Mary Ann between 1896 (birth of Ettie) and 1901 census where Richard claims to be a widower?
I can't see an obvious death for someone around the right age on registered in Middx in that time frame. Could be worth other's checking though in case I missed it. ::) :)
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There is Mary Ann JONES death reg Mar qtr 1897 age 33 at Fulham (1a/162)
and another aged 34 in Jun qtr 1897 at Lambeth (1d/269).
And another aged 36 Mar qtr 1899 at Paddington (1a/55)
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I wonder who the 2 children who died were, especially if born after Ettie which would narrow the search for a possible death for Mary Ann. Have to go out now, but will look on GRO later.
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I can only find 7 children with the surname Jones and mothers name Palmer in Vol 1c
Richard Charles 1c 413 q3 1890 Stepney
Mary Elizabeth 1c 544 q1 1893 Mile end old town
Louisa Marian 1c 467 q4 1893 Mile end old town
Annie Maria 1c 501 q1 1895 Mile end old town
Frederick Wrangle 1c 520 q1 1896 Mile end old town
Ettie 1c 452 q2 1896 Stepney
William Henry 1c 420 q4 1897 Stepney
With 2 registered in 1896 in successive quarters I think there must be 2 families involved.
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Baptism for Frederick Wrangle shows parents as William John and Emily Jones
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Mary Ann Elizabeth b-3/12/1892 bap-31/12/1892 St Luke Limehouse
Annie Maria b-3/10/1894 bap-24/10/1894 St Luke Limehouse
Hetty (presume Ettie) b-6/4/1896 bap-25/4/1896 St Luke Limehouse
William Henry b-6/10/1897 bap-23/10/1897 St Luke Limehouse
First 2 have Mary Ann as mother and second 2 have Mary Elizabeth as mother.
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Mary Ann Palmer age 17 could be living at 16 New Road, Mile End, in 1881, a domestic servant in the Joseph family, born London.
Birth?
Mary Ann Palmer mmn Collins June quarter 1864 in Stepney
(but cannot see a Robert Palmer marriage suitable)
I think you mean Peter PALMER?
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Searching FreeBDM marriages with Peter PALMER in Middlesex comes up with a possible in Jun qtr 1864 at Mile End (1c/959) either Matilda Mary BULLOCK or Elizabeth MARSHALL.
Then there is a birth reg Mar qtr 1865 Shoreditch (1c/207) for Mary Ann PALMER mmn MARSHALL.
A possibility?
(Also William Henry PALMER Jun qtr 1867 Shoreditch (1c/197) mmn MARSHALL
Edward Stanley PALMER Sep qtr 1872 Hackney (1b/481) mmn MARSHALL)
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Peter Palmer & Elizabeth Marshall married 25/4/1864 at St Thomas Stepney.
Both of full age and resident in Stepney.
Peter a Labourer - Father William Palmer a Labourer.
Elizabeth - Father John Marshall a shoemaker.
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There is also a Peter PALMER married Caroline GRAVES East London 1862, however I can't see a child Mary Ann to them (though there is an Annie Maria in 1863). I'm thinking this is not the right Peter.
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Thank you again for all your replies.
I've spoken to my mother again and clarified a couple of things
First, the family history was there was 6 children of Mary Ann, with 4 surviving - Richard, Mary, Annie Maria and Ettie, with the years of birth given as 1890, 92, 94, 96.
My mother says the main problem is no trace of Mary Ann's family on the census (Peter Palmer) in London
Now I'm wondering whether they moved out of London and did she follow if she became ill (TB? - lots in the family) and died elsewhere?
The Fulham death seems to tie up in time and age at least
The marriage of Peter Palmer to Elizabeth Marshall seems most likely, but there's also a story from a decendent of Richard Jones Jnr that Mary Ann's mother was called Caroline (the other marriage mentioned)
Clear as mud - unless it's the same Peter Palmer with a second marriage?
Lots for me to think about here
Thank you all for your time on this
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Just thought I'd expand on great Maddys idea, in case it helps.
From FreeBMD. districts 1x thru 4x, 1896 thru 1899 . . . . .
Year qtr died / age / implied birthyear / name / Area
1896 | Q2_Jun | 31 | 1865 | | Jones | Mary | | Marylebone | 1a | 414 |
1897 | Q4_Dec | 33 | 1864 | | Jones | Mary | | W. Ham | 4a | 89 |
1898 | Q1_Mar | 34 | 1864 | | Jones | Mary | | Hampstead | 1a | 545 |
1898 | Q2_Jun | 35 | 1863 | | Jones | Mary | | Greenwich | 1d | 582 |
1898 | Q4_Dec | 36 | 1862 | | Jones | Mary | | Maidenhead | 2c | 259 |
1899 | Q2_Jun | 37 | 1862 | | Jones | Mary | | Hackney | 1b | 354 |
1897 | Q1_Mar | 33 | 1864 | | Jones | Mary Ann | | Fulham | 1a | 162 |
1897 | Q2_Jun | 34 | 1863 | | Jones | Mary Ann | | Lambeth | 1d | 269 |
1899 | Q1_Mar | 34 | 1865 | | Jones | Mary Ann | | Northampton | 3b | 58 |
1899 | Q1_Mar | 36 | 1863 | | Jones | Mary Ann | | Paddington | 1a | 5 |
1896 | Q2_Jun | 36 | 1860 | | Jones | Mary Ann | | Headington | 3a | 449 |
1899 | Q4_Dec | 39 | 1860 | | Jones | Mary Ann B | | Marylebone | 1a | 421 |
1899 | Q2_Jun | 37 | 1862 | | Jones | Mary Ann F | | Camberwell | 1d | 418 |
1897 | Q2_Jun | 30 | 1867 | | Jones | Mary Jane | | Greenwich | 1d | 511 |
1896 | Q4_Dec | 36 | 1860 | | Jones | Mary Rose | | St. Saviour | 1d | 90 |
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I can only find 7 children with the surname Jones and mothers name Palmer in Vol 1c
Richard Charles 1c 413 q3 1890 Stepney
Mary Elizabeth 1c 544 q1 1893 Mile end old town
Louisa Marian 1c 467 q4 1893 Mile end old town
Annie Maria 1c 501 q1 1895 Mile end old town
Frederick Wrangle 1c 520 q1 1896 Mile end old town
Ettie 1c 452 q2 1896 Stepney
William Henry 1c 420 q4 1897 Stepney
With 2 registered in 1896 in successive quarters I think there must be 2 families involved.
Baptism for Frederick Wrangle shows parents as William John and Emily Jones
William John Jones married Emily Palmer Mar qtr 1881, St Saviour 1d 154
Will have a quick look to see who the parents are of Emily, just in case there is a connection.
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Louisa Marian (1893) appears to belong to William John and Emily.
Last child of Richard and Mary Ann/Mary Elizabeth seems to be William Henry born Oct 1897. Strangely I can't see likely death for him before 1901 and he doesn't appear in the census with the rest of the family.
Isobel
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I can only find 7 children with the surname Jones and mothers name Palmer in Vol 1c
Richard Charles 1c 413 q3 1890 Stepney
Mary Elizabeth 1c 544 q1 1893 Mile end old town
Louisa Marian 1c 467 q4 1893 Mile end old town
Annie Maria 1c 501 q1 1895 Mile end old town
Frederick Wrangle 1c 520 q1 1896 Mile end old town
Ettie 1c 452 q2 1896 Stepney
William Henry 1c 420 q4 1897 Stepney
With 2 registered in 1896 in successive quarters I think there must be 2 families involved.
Baptism for Frederick Wrangle shows parents as William John and Emily Jones
William John Jones married Emily Palmer Mar qtr 1881, St Saviour 1d 154
Will have a quick look to see who the parents are of Emily, just in case there is a connection.
WIlliam and Emily married at St John the Evangelist, Walworth on 27 Feb 1881. William's father was given as also being called William John Jones, deceased and Emily's father is given as James Palmer (also deceased). Witnesses are Alfred and Harriet Soar
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There is also a Peter PALMER married Caroline GRAVES East London 1862, however I can't see a child Mary Ann to them (though there is an Annie Maria in 1863). I'm thinking this is not the right Peter.
On the 1871 census, this Peter is a green grocer, living at 30 Hastings St (aged 34) RG10; Piece: 213; Folio: 70; Page: 29
1881 - same place, still a greengrocer RG11; Piece: 190; Folio: 68; Page: 29 (wife Caroline and daughter Alice)
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Apologies in advance that I have previously posted requesting information regarded Mary Ann some time ago, but I can't seem to find the old thread.
To recap she's our ultimate mystery and I think nothing substantial came from it before. Years of searching has come up with born between 1861-1867 probably in the East End of London (but can't rule out Ireland or that she was from a traveller family as a lot of my ancestors have turned out to be)
Her father is recorded on her marriage as Peter Palmer, but we've come to the conclusion she was more likely his neice (if we're even in the right family) and her actual father was a Robert Palmer brother of Peter. Her marriage given age would make her born around 1867, but we do have births for 61-67 as I said, and other active family trees have used this whole range. There's no death listing that we can find. It's possibly significant that quite a few of her relations emigrated to Canada - I've always wondered did she just leave for another man, or another country, and the death story a more respectable cover?
She married Richard Jones in 1889 in Bow Common, East London and had 4 survivng children born in 1890(Richard) 92(Mary) 94(Annie) 96(Ettie) and a son William who died at or shortly after birth in 1898.
Richard Jones declares in the 1901 census he is a widow, and in the 1911 census that he had 6 children, 4 living. His surviving children were always told they had 2 siblings who died in infancy but again we have no record of a 6th child.
There were a lot of twins in the family, so we now wonder whether one of the children (possibly William in 1898?) had a stillborn premature twin who was never recorded.
Why I'm reposting now is going through old family documents and photos that came from Mary Ann's husband and daughter. We have found an unlabelled photograph of a lady strongly resembling Mary Ann's 3 daughters of whom we have multiple pictures, but the blouse and hair look turn of the century/early 20th century, and therefore too old to be them. It's definately not the daughter she resembles the most as she both emigrated and died young.
This is a post of wild hope and desperation - does anyone know the lady in this picture? I have no expectation that any more evidence about what happened to her will come to light, we've tried so often. But does anyone know this woman? She could be an aunt, one of Richard Jones sisters, hence the family resemblance, but most of our old family pics are labelled and she's not. The photo is clean, in good condition and looks like it's never been framed or exposed to much light.
It is so tantalising to think this COULD be our almost mythical Mary Ann Palmer (my Great Grandmother) and frustrating to think we most likely will never know for certain.
Thank you for your time in reading this, and anything anyone can add
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Apologies in advance that I have previously posted requesting information regarded Mary Ann some time ago, but I can't seem to find the old thread.
Is this it http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=784979.msg6400316#msg6400316
If you click on Profile you can see your previous posts.
Stan
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Apologies in advance that I have previously posted requesting information regarded Mary Ann some time ago, but I can't seem to find the old thread.
Is this it http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=784979.msg6400316#msg6400316
If you click on Profile you can see your previous posts.
Stan
Thank you for that - I knew there would be a way somewhere I just couldn't figure it out. I'd be happy for an admin to merge this with the old thread if they can locate it for neatness :)
Threads merged , heading changed.
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Might be an idea to post the photo on the "Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs" forum, include the whole of the photo, mount and all, and the back. Someone there may be able to give you an idea of when the photo was taken. :)
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Might be an idea to post the photo on the "Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs" forum, include the whole of the photo, mount and all, and the back. Someone there may be able to give you an idea of when the photo was taken. :)
Thanks :)
I am at a relatives house atm havig a great time working through a treasure trove of old family photos and documents - I know, what a way to spend a sunny bank holiday!
When I return tonight I will repost this picture in the photograph section along with another I've found - it looks like it was taken at the same time and place but I would need advice on that. The reason that could be such a critical clue is we know who that lady is and roughly when it was taken. She was Mary Ann's sister in law and they were living in the same house around the time we think the other picture was taken. Tantalising.
It's exciting stuff because it looks like I just MIGHT have identified the only pictures of both my maternal GGMs on this trip.