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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: Gordon Hughes on Wednesday 03 January 18 19:47 GMT (UK)

Title: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gordon Hughes on Wednesday 03 January 18 19:47 GMT (UK)
Hi,

I'm trying to trace back from my g-g-grandfather Robert Jones, who was born around 1929 in Llanelidan, and who married a Margaret (Jones ?) around 1855. Margaret came from Llandderfel.

The problem I have is that Llanelidan is missing from the 1861 and 1841 censuses. I know that in 1871 Robert and Margaret were living at Bryn Melyn, but in the 1851 census I can find no record of either Robert or Margaret, or their residence from 1871 which was Bryn Melyn.

On top of that, the Parish Records have no been transcribed for that period, so I would probably have to make a visit to Aberystwyth to investigate further. I could buy a copy of the Parish Records that have been transcribed, but they only go up to 1811.

Before I think about a trip to Aberystwyth, does anyone have any guidance, or maybe access to some of the Parish Records that might help me ?

Many thanks, Gordon.
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 03 January 18 20:21 GMT (UK)
Hi Gordon

I've got some Llanelidan records (as you say, up to 1811-12). Have you found the ref to their marriage as that should give you Robert's fathers name.

Gadget
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 03 January 18 20:25 GMT (UK)
Nearest I can find on the North Wales BMD is Corwen, civil marriage
Robert Jones and probably Margaret Jones, 1855
Local ref is CRWN/02/33

Gadget
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 03 January 18 20:30 GMT (UK)
There is a Llanelidan baptism online  for a Robert Jones~
24 Feb 1827  Parents Edward and Catherine of Ty Isa.

What were the children called?

Gadget
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 03 January 18 20:36 GMT (UK)
Also 7 Jan 1830 Parents Jeffrey and Margaret of Llechwedd y Bryn

So it might be either of these or neither. I have the Blackwell non-c index on my other machine but you could check Freereg for any non-conformist baptisms.

Gadget

Added - none on Freereg for Llanelidan or Corwen  but if non-c they could have used nearby churches/chapels
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: despair on Wednesday 03 January 18 22:51 GMT (UK)
If you do not have the later censuses,Robert and Margaret are at Bryn Melyn up to and including the 1901 census

1881 RG11/5523/26/7
1891 RG12/4422/21/6
1901 RG13/5229/23/6

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 03 January 18 23:14 GMT (UK)
GRO ref to the marriage I referred to above:

Q2 1855, Corwen. 11b, 705

If you order it, specify that you only want to purchase it if the bride is a Margaret Jones


Gadget

Added  -
Nearest I can find on the North Wales BMD is Corwen, civil marriage
Robert Jones and probably Margaret Jones, 1855
Local ref is CRWN/02/33

Gadget

This record code is the local record code and the original 'local' copy is kept at Wrexham Records Office, See  North Wales BMD site.
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 04 January 18 13:17 GMT (UK)
Only other marriage showing around that time/area is in Bala,  Q1 1856, 11b 579
Robert Jones and Margaret Jones

This is probably the marriage in Llanycil parish (Bala) ~

26 January 1856
Robert Jones , 20, bach, labourer, Llangwm, David Jones, labourer
Margaret Jones, 19, sp,  -, Bala, John Davies, Tailor
Witnessses - John Hughes, Ann Jones

From what you've said re ages, etc. this looks unlikely so the 1855 one, previously referenced, is the most likely.

Gadget
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gordon Hughes on Thursday 04 January 18 16:49 GMT (UK)
Gadget, Roger,

Thanks for all the replies. I've now done some more research and here's what I've discovered.

Robert Jones was actually born in 1854. I found the baptism records for him and his siblings on Freereg as follows:
Robert Jones, 11/3/1854, St Elidan
Jane Jones, 30/12/1855, ditto
Elias Jones, 1/1/1858, ditto
Margaret Jones, 13/10/1855. ditto
John Jones, 1/1/1862, ditto

Cross-referencing these against the GRO then it would appear that Robert Jones snr. married a Margaret ROBERTS, not Jones. The Reg. District for the above births is Ruthin not Corwen, since Llanelidan is in Denbigh, but as yet I've not found any marriage record for Robert and Margaret. Since Margaret was born in Llandderfel then they may have married in either location. It's a shame the early census records for Llanelidan are missing because that might give a clue as to their residence in those years. Maybe the full baptism records indicate residence but that's not in the transcripts on Freereg.

I shall continue my research !

Again, many thanks, Gordon
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 04 January 18 16:57 GMT (UK)
Ah - I saw a marriage for a Robert marrying a Margaret Roberts  but discounted as you seemed to be fairly sure  that Margaret  was a Jones.  Will go and look for it again.

The RD in that area are complex - related to the Poor Law Unions, of course. Bala , Corwen, Ruthin, Wrexham and Oswestry  for the various parishes in that broad area. They also changed. E.g. my parents were born and married in the same parish as my sister and I but their's were registered in one RD and ours in another!

Gadget
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 04 January 18 17:03 GMT (UK)
Here tis ~

Robert Jones and Margaret Roberts
Ruthin, 1854, Q1, 11b, 491


Gadget
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gordon Hughes on Thursday 04 January 18 17:12 GMT (UK)
Thanks Gadget,

Yes, I broke my own rule by listening to information passed on by another family member without double-checking it against the available records. This is why I don't post family trees on Ancestry etc and I never take for granted anything I see posted there unless there are records that verify the provenance !

Anyway, even though Robert Jnr was apparently born in Q1 1854, I think that marriage record is the most likely one and it's worth applying for the certificate which will hopefully confirm the residences of both parties.

Thanks again, Gordon.
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 04 January 18 17:20 GMT (UK)
There's also a possible in 1851 in Bala - but not not sure - marriage finder is not as confident - a couple of Anns listed as well!

Bala, 1851, Q3,  vol 27, p 171
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 04 January 18 17:31 GMT (UK)
This is all very odd as I'm not locating them on the North Wales BMD site. I know that there were problems with some of the registrars ' permissions when the info was collected but I thought that the Ruthin area problems were with the Churches  :-\

I'll try treble checking.
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 04 January 18 17:34 GMT (UK)
Yep - both marriages are on the FreeBMD site.

Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: despair on Thursday 04 January 18 17:53 GMT (UK)
If you put Robert Jones alone in the NorthWalesBMD site,Margaret Roberts appears as an option with another pair,but if you enter any element of her name as well,nothing appears!

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 04 January 18 18:30 GMT (UK)
I'm sure it wasn't like that in the olden days, Roger. It was confusing as 3 other sites were giving them  ::)

Gordon - when you order the certs, specify the spouse to be Margaret Roberts.

Gadget
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: hanes teulu on Thursday 04 January 18 18:34 GMT (UK)
All five baptismal records of the children baptised Llanelidan, 1854-1862, parents Robert and Margaret Jones, show "Abode - Brynhyfryd" and father's occupation "Labourer
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gordon Hughes on Thursday 04 January 18 18:43 GMT (UK)
Ah, now that is VERY helpful.

I've got the Census CDs for Merioneth and Denbigh for 1841 through 1861 so I can try and check the occupants of that residence for those years.

Diolch yn fawr, Gordon.
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gordon Hughes on Thursday 25 January 18 21:50 GMT (UK)
At last, I now have the marriage certificate for the Robert Jones/Margaret Roberts marriage in 1854.
The date is the 4th January, 1854 at the Independant Church (?? Street, Llanrhydd ??).

Robert is a husbandman, residence Garthinen, Llanelidan,  and his father is David Jones, farmer.
Margaret is a servant, residence Bodlwydd Ucha, and her father is John Roberts, shoemaker.

In later censuses Margaret says she's from Llandderfel. I scanned the Llandderfel census and there seem to be a number of shoemakers there so maybe it was a local industry ?

I tried to find 'Garthinen' as a residence on the censuses, but couldn't locate it, certainly not in Llanelidan, so I've no idea where it is. I think I've got the spelling correct so maybe someone else may have some insight ?

This does look like the right marriage for my family. Brynhyfryd was a row of cottages quite near Bodlwydd Ucha, and Robert Jones my g-g-grandfather was born in 1854 soon after this marriage so it all seems to add up.

Thoughts anyone ? :)

Thanks, Gordon.
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Thursday 25 January 18 22:10 GMT (UK)
There is a settlement called Garthneuoedd (or Garth-y-neuadd) on the c1851 census and it's still there on modern maps:

https://tinyurl.com/ycgmexsr

I'm having problems with the NLS map collection tonight - the OS maps don't seem to be up  :-\

Gadget
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gordon Hughes on Friday 26 January 18 07:32 GMT (UK)
Yes, I noticed Garthneuodd, but I don't think it's the same thing. Here's the marriage certificate so you can see exactly what was written.
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: hanes teulu on Friday 26 January 18 08:43 GMT (UK)
Welshnewspapers online has "Garthinen, Llandrillo" and "Garthinen, Gwyddelwern"
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: despair on Friday 26 January 18 08:49 GMT (UK)
The Llandrillo version,I believe,should be Garthiaen,as I think that it may be the correct address for this person:-

http://cymru1914.org/en/view/newspaper/3887649/6

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Friday 26 January 18 08:52 GMT (UK)
If that's the case, I think Gwyddelwern would be the closest as they're adjacent parishes.  Llandrillo further away.
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gordon Hughes on Friday 26 January 18 09:05 GMT (UK)
Thanks all ! That's very helpful. So if it's Gwyddelwern, then it wouldn't be unreasonable for Robert to put it down as "Garthinen, Llanelidan" ?

I'll start researching the censuses for that location.

Gordon.
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Friday 26 January 18 09:08 GMT (UK)
Thanks all ! That's very helpful. So if it's Gwyddelwern, then it wouldn't be unreasonable for Robert to put it down as "Garthinen, Llanelidan" ?

I'll start researching the censuses for that location.

Gordon.

Yes. Some of my Joneses came from the area and I had to buy both the Llanelidan and Gwyddelwern records because they kept 'flitting' between the two  ::)
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: hanes teulu on Friday 26 January 18 09:12 GMT (UK)
Tithe Maps of Wales  https://places.library.wales/home

It looks as if the site has changed since I last visited and I need to familiarise myself with it's navigation process!
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: despair on Friday 26 January 18 09:13 GMT (UK)
Just to fill in your question marks re the certificate.I think it is the Independent Chapel,Rhos Street,Llanrhydd-(A district of Ruthin).

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Friday 26 January 18 09:33 GMT (UK)
Tithe Maps of Wales  https://places.library.wales/home

It looks as if the site has changed since I last visited and I need to familiarise myself with it's navigation process!


It's not the easiest!

I've been looking through the NLS OS maps, which are now searchable again, but the important area of the border between the two parishes is not available on the 25 inch/mile maps  :(
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: despair on Friday 26 January 18 10:00 GMT (UK)
It's a bit of a leap of faith,but now there is the marriage certificate,could Robert be the son of David and Susanna as here(elsewhere their abode is Maes Traean/Truan?)

https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_queries/5a6af923791e3be678ab9b69

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Friday 26 January 18 10:08 GMT (UK)
Worth checking on the 1841, Roger  :)

My eyes are getting squiffy from looking at those maps!
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: despair on Friday 26 January 18 10:16 GMT (UK)
At least some of the 1841 for Llanelidan is missing.Haven't found them in 1851 yet.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Friday 26 January 18 10:32 GMT (UK)
An interesting marriage in Corwen 4 Feb 1832

David Jones and Susannah Jones, both otp. By Licence.

Might be worth following  :-\
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gordon Hughes on Friday 26 January 18 17:09 GMT (UK)
Another thought occurs:

There is a Robert Jones on the 1851 census, born in Llanelidan, but working as a servant on a farm in Trewyn Bodlwydd. The farm is Caerddinen. I'm wondering whether the registrar misheard Caerddinen as Garthinen ? I'm also noting that both Robert and Margaret were illiterate so they would have had no idea what was written.

I'll try and find out who was living at Garthinen though.
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: despair on Friday 26 January 18 17:15 GMT (UK)
That is exactly the conclusion I was about to post.In both the 1851 and 1871 censuses (latter at Bryn Melyn) there is an  adjacent(ish) property called Cefn Rhydd(or Rhudd),with the same Hughes family on both occasions.Caaerddinen is at postcode LL15 2LH.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Friday 26 January 18 17:30 GMT (UK)
I think you're right. It would be pronounced  Caerthinen or Carthinen - very similar to Garthinan.

 :)
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gordon Hughes on Friday 26 January 18 17:34 GMT (UK)
And in the 1871 census Robert and Margaret are at Bryn Melyn !

The plot thickens....
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gordon Hughes on Friday 26 January 18 18:01 GMT (UK)
Re David Jones and Susannah Jones, then they're on the 1851 census at Llanbedr Farm, Llanbedr. David is from Llanelidan but it's not quite clear where Susannah is from. At that time David is 60 and Susannah is 39. Might be that David was previously married ? 
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: despair on Friday 26 January 18 18:16 GMT (UK)
I think the likeliest interpretation of Susanna's birthplace is a form of Ditto(for Denbighshire) followed by Cerrigydruidion.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: dmjones on Wednesday 31 January 18 15:29 GMT (UK)
This probably won't help, but there is a Garthinen in Gwyddelwern and also Llandrillo
D Jones
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 31 January 18 15:41 GMT (UK)
This probably won't help, but there is a Garthinen in Gwyddelwern and also Llandrillo
D Jones

I'm not sure if you've read the whole thread but this was mentioned by HT a few pages ago:

Welshnewspapers online has "Garthinen, Llandrillo" and "Garthinen, Gwyddelwern"

 The problem is that Robert Jones is consistent in his statements on marriage cert and censuses that he was born in and lived in the parish of  Llanelidan.

Gadget

Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: despair on Wednesday 31 January 18 16:58 GMT (UK)
In the light of the previous speculation here is a very interesting snippet for an 1882 marriage of John Hughes,Caerddinen,to Margaret Jones,Garthgynen( or less likely,Garthgynea?).is she the daughter of Robert and Margaret?

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4589611/4589616/11/

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 31 January 18 17:05 GMT (UK)
1871 = RG10/5663/24/2 at Bryn Melyn, Llanelidan

They do have a daughter Margaret, b. c. 1860.

Gadget
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: despair on Wednesday 31 January 18 18:04 GMT (UK)
The only Garthgynan I can find is in Lanfair Dyffryn Clwyd(approx.postcode LL15 2EP),so it is possibly just a coincidence of names.

Regards
Roger
Title: Re: Robert Jones, Llanelidan, mid 1800s
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 31 January 18 19:40 GMT (UK)

I think the abode was just where he lived/worked when he was married and was probably where we thought it might be - Caerthinen.

Gadget