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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Lensmeister on Thursday 11 January 18 13:38 GMT (UK)
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Greetings all,
I have a 1780 Marriage that I need some help with. Initially I thought it was German but it seems to be Latin.
I have attached the original entry as a image.
below is what someone has kindly transcibed from handwritting to text for me but I have zero latin abilities.
The marriage is in Grafenstein Austria between Josef Lairoutz and Christine Winkler. I have a sneaking suspicion that Christina was a widow but not sure.
II Pirek data S˙nodalia
Die 25 bris Idem supra praemissis denuntiationibus
juasum prima Dominica 18, sda in festo S. Mathaei, Austria
Prica igno post Penth; inter Missarum solemnia habito
est nulloque impedimento Canonico detecto honestum
Josephum juvenem honesti Pauli Ba˙rovits et conjugis
Maria ambto defunctorum filium legit. hujis
Parochiae et honestam Christinam Winklerin vulgo
Shtamizyn Viduam ...Pirek pariter hujis Parochiae
interrogavit, eorumque consensu mutuo habito
solemniter per verbo de praesenti matrimonio conjunxit
praesentibus testibus Francisco Velick filio legit.
Simonis Velick et Martino Habernigg, un lgc?
zhotej, filio legit. Philippi Habernigg omnes hujus
Parochiae
Many thanks in advance.
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Hello Lensmeister
With all due respect to the person who transcribed the handwriting, I think some of the words have been misread.
I popped the text into google latin to english and although a good bit of it made sense, other areas were quite odd. Some of the words didn't appear to have been translated which possibly suggests they have been misread.
One I think is incorrect is 'Prica' on the left fourth line down. I think the first letter may possibly be a T? It doesn't look the same as the word 'Penth' where the P seems to be quite clear.
I think there is someone on Rootschat who is good at Latin and hopefully will see this post and help you out.
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Just so that you can see the oddness of the translation, this is what Google came up with:-
2 Pirek given Synodall
On 25 November, the same value as the previous notices
The first Sunday juasum 18, SDA, S. Mathai, Austria
Prica unknown after Penth; Mass was possessed
there is no impediment detection of becoming a Canon
Joseph, a young man of honesty and partner Paul Ba˙rovits
Seas Ambts his daughter reads. hujiis
Christine district and honest generally Winklerin
Shtamizyn widow ... Pirek both liable Parishes
he asked their consent exchanges
By the word ordinarily present married together
and read in the presence of witnesses to the son of Francisco Velick.
Simon and Martin Velick Habernigg, a LGC?
zhotej, the son of a book. All of Philip Habernigg
parish:
Definitely needs some fine tuning. I think the person who is good at Latin is called Bookbox but I'm not 100% sure.
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Bookbox, horselydown86 & arthurk [and others whose names I cannot remember] are all fantastic at latin & old handwriting. They keep an eye on this board so I am sure they will be along shortly.....
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Ah thanks Josey. I was pretty sure there were some others who were good at this but their names didn't come to mind. I could only remember Bookbox.
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Bookbox, horselydown86 & arthurk [and others whose names I cannot remember] are all fantastic at latin...
I'm afraid you pay me a compliment I don't deserve, Josey. I'm strictly a bluffer & battler with the Latin. This one is well beyond my limited capacity.
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Oh well, made you feel good for a while, eh? You are certainly amazing with old handwriting so don't hide your light....
PS I did notice 'viduam' after Christine's name which refers to her being a 'widow'.
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Feeling my arm slightly twisted, here's a very quick attempt. Some bits defeated me, but it should be a start.
First, I'm not sure about the heading Data Synodalia - might it be something similar to Bishops Transcripts?
ii Pirck
On the 25th day of September [in the same year as above?] notices having been given
of which the first on the 18th Sunday, 2nd on the feast of St Matthew, and the 3rd
on the 19th Sunday after Pentecost, between the rites of the Mass ......
... and no canonical impediment being detected, [Latin verb is in line 10] (1)
Joseph son of (1) Paul Layrouitz and of his wife
Mary both deceased, their legitimate son, of this
parish, and (1) Christina Winklerin, commonly
Shtamizin? widow of Pirck equally of this parish
[she claimed?] and by their mutual consent ...
solemnly by words of ... I joined in matrimony
Witnesses present: Francis Velick, legitimate son
of Simon Velick, and Martin Habernigg, commonly
Zholgi?, legitimate son of Philip Habernigg, all of this
parish
(1) at these points there is the Latin word honestum/honestam, which means honest or honourable. I wasn't sure how best to translate it here - might it just be a conventional form like Mr or Mrs?
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Feeling my arm slightly twisted, here's a very quick attempt. Some bits defeated me, but it should be a start.
First, I'm not sure about the heading Data Synodalia - might it be something similar to Bishops Transcripts?
ii Pirck
On the 25th day of September [in the same year as above?] notices having been given
of which the first on the 18th Sunday, 2nd on the feast of St Matthew, and the 3rd
on the 19th Sunday after Pentecost, between the rites of the Mass ......
... and no canonical impediment being detected, [Latin verb is in line 10] (1)
Joseph son of (1) Paul Layrouitz and of his wife
Mary both deceased, their legitimate son, of this
parish, and (1) Christina Winklerin, commonly
Shtamizin? widow of Pirck equally of this parish
[she claimed?] and by their mutual consent ...
solemnly by words of ... I joined in matrimony
Witnesses present: Francis Velick, legitimate son
of Simon Velick, and Martin Habernigg, commonly
Zholgi?, legitimate son of Philip Habernigg, all of this
parish
(1) at these points there is the Latin word honestum/honestam, which means honest or honourable. I wasn't sure how best to translate it here - might it just be a conventional form like Mr or Mrs?
Thanks you all especially arthurk :)
I found a possible relative on MyHeritage. SHe has Christina Winkler (it's all in German) but next to her name is this:
Christina verwitwete Lajroutz, vulg.Shtamitz (geb. Pugl verw.Winkler)
I get that geb. means geboren (born) which could mean she was born Christina Pugl and was widowed when she married Josef.
Any ideas ?
No idea what vulg.Stamitz means ... vulg could mean vulgo which in latin means generally
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Thanks you all especially arthurk :)
I found a possible relative on MyHeritage. SHe has Christina Winkler (it's all in German) but next to her name is this:
Christina verwitwete Lajroutz, vulg.Shtamitz (geb. Pugl verw.Winkler)
I get that geb. means geboren (born) which could mean she was born Christina Pugl and was widowed when she married Josef.
Any ideas ?
In German the suffix -in is used to make a word feminine, eg Freund - friend; Freundin - girlfriend. I haven't ever seen it used on a surname, but it seems perfectly feasible that at some time in history that may be what they did - hence Winklerin and Shtamitzin in the document. Your possible relative seems to have used the modern convention rather than transcribing exactly.
I don't see where Pugl came from - some other source/document, perhaps?
No idea what vulg.Stamitz means ... vulg could mean vulgo which in latin means generally
I found the word as vulgo (in two places), and I translated it as commonly.
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Thanks you all especially arthurk :)
I found a possible relative on MyHeritage. SHe has Christina Winkler (it's all in German) but next to her name is this:
Christina verwitwete Lajroutz, vulg.Shtamitz (geb. Pugl verw.Winkler)
I get that geb. means geboren (born) which could mean she was born Christina Pugl and was widowed when she married Josef.
Any ideas ?
In German the suffix -in is used to make a word feminine, eg Freund - friend; Freundin - girlfriend. I haven't ever seen it used on a surname, but it seems perfectly feasible that at some time in history that may be what they did - hence Winklerin and Shtamitzin in the document. Your possible relative seems to have used the modern convention rather than transcribing exactly.
I don't see where Pugl came from - some other source/document, perhaps?
No idea what vulg.Stamitz means ... vulg could mean vulgo which in latin means generally
I found the word as vulgo (in two places), and I translated it as commonly.
No idea where Pugl comes from either. I have asked an Austrian cousin and he seems to thing that Shtamitz is her name prior to marriage ???
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Maybe it is like the Scottish form of a married woman's name eg Forename Married Name or Maiden Name.
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Morning all,
So I wake up this morning to this
Vulg. Means vulgo
The vulgo Name is the Name of the Farm she lived.
For example: krainer vulgo brock
Not sure this is correct ???
Trust my family lot to be confusing
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Morning all,
So I wake up this morning to this
Vulg. Means vulgo
The vulgo Name is the Name of the Farm she lived.
For example: krainer vulgo brock
Not sure this is correct ???
Trust my family lot to be confusing
I can assure you with 100% certainty that the meaning of vulgo in this context, alongside a name, means 'commonly' or 'commonly known as'.
I believe this has already been correctly stated by Arthur in reply #9.
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Vulg. Means vulgo
The vulgo Name is the Name of the Farm she lived.
For example: krainer vulgo brock
I can assure you with 100% certainty that the meaning of vulgo in this context, alongside a name, means 'commonly' or 'commonly known as'.
Although we Latin translators are certain about the meaning of vulgo, I think it's possible that Lensmeister's contact could in some sense be right.
I believe that in one or more Scandinavian countries (Norway?) farm names are crucial in identifying families, and function in a similar way to surnames. Might this be the case here too?
Scandinavian and Austrian genealogy is way beyond my expertise, and I only picked up this concept from discussions about how FH programs handle it, and there will no doubt be others who know more. Meanwhile, there might be something in the Family Search wiki:
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Austria_Genealogy
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Could it perhaps be a mixture of both?
Perhaps the farm was indeed called Shtamitz/Schtamitz/Shtamytz/whatever ::)
and Mr Lajroutz was known as Shtamitz because of his farm..?
Comparable with the way a village full of people called Jones uses "tags" to differentiate. Thomas the Tank Engine fans will be familiar with Jones the Steam. :D
So perhaps her maiden name was Christina Pugl and she married Mr Winkler, who then died, after which she married Mr Lajroutz, who had a farm named Shtamitz. She then outlived him, hence:
Christina verwitwete Lajroutz, vulg.Shtamitz (geb. Pugl verw.Winkler)
(Christina, widowed Lajroutz)
Just an idea...
Karen
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And a food one Karen
Not speaking German makes researching my Austrian lot hard.
Josef Lairouz and Christina are my 6th Great grandparents.
Thanks to everyone for al the help, ideas and advice so far.