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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: tarquin christian on Thursday 11 January 18 21:33 GMT (UK)

Title: William Christian
Post by: tarquin christian on Thursday 11 January 18 21:33 GMT (UK)
Any information regarding william christian 1851-1922 or his family including John Edward Christian 1878-1953 who lived on stanley road possibly late 1890's

thanks
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 11 January 18 21:40 GMT (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat! ;D

Stanley Road, where exactly?
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Thursday 11 January 18 21:42 GMT (UK)
This death?

William Christian age 70 died in March quarter 1922 in West Derby
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Thursday 11 January 18 21:45 GMT (UK)
Stanley Road, Kirkdale, Liverpool?

What sort of information are you after - do you know of their parents, wives and children?
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Thursday 11 January 18 21:49 GMT (UK)
Was John Edward born on the Isle of Man?
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 11 January 18 21:51 GMT (UK)
There is also a Stanley Road in Peel, Isle of Man ;D
And this birth:
25 May 1878    John Edward Christian    at Peel, IOM
Son of William Christian and Catherine Clarke Christian

(In good old Manx tradition, the mother's maiden name is usually stated on a birth/christening)
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Thursday 11 January 18 21:59 GMT (UK)
John Edward Christian born 1878 on Isle of Man is in your tree on Ancestry, so what information are you after?
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 11 January 18 22:02 GMT (UK)
Researching Christian's in the Isle of Man is a bit like researching Smith in England, or Jones in Wales!

I'm going to need everything you know - other children, wife, etc. ;D

If we have the correct parents for John Edward, then these must be siblings?
Evangeline Mabel - 14 Sep 1886 (mother Elizabeth Catherine Clarke)
Maud Evelyn - 28 Apr 1894


And a marriage?
9 Dec 1875, Patrick, Isle of Man
William Christian to Elizabeth Catherine Clarke

Fathers: John Christian and Henry Clarke
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: KGarrad on Thursday 11 January 18 22:23 GMT (UK)
1881 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WS-2BHT

Family living in Stanley Road, Peel ;D ;D
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: tarquin christian on Friday 12 January 18 08:24 GMT (UK)
My father Willaim Allan Christian never talked about his family at all so all I know is what I've found out from Ancestry and other sources such as my parents marriage certificate with John Edward Christian ( armed Forces, no idea of which branch, Army. Navy etc ) as father living at Wykeham Street, Liverpool. Buried at Anfield Cemertry 1953
John Edward Christian's wife was Catherine Dowell traced back to Sheltand and her siblings who lived in Liverpool.

I have a full copy of my fathers army records but no nothing of his first 20 years of life, no even a birth certificate, baptism , anything would be good though.

They lived at no 3 Stanley road IOM
Parents are
William Christian and  Elizabeth Catherine Clarke
I found possible siblings of
William Henry and Thomas ( KGarrad has found Evangeline Mabel - 14 Sep 1886 (mother Elizabeth Catherine Clarke)
Maud Evelyn - 28 Apr 1894 )

John Christian and Henry Clarke found on marriage information re: KGarrad and IOM records



Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: KGarrad on Friday 12 January 18 09:18 GMT (UK)
Civil Registration of Births and deaths started on the Isle of Man in 1878.
I can't see John Edward on ManxBMD.com, so it looks as if he missed out on a Birth Certificate :-\

His baptism is on Ancestry though:
Isle of Man, Select Births and Baptisms, 1821-1911

And also on FamilySearch.org
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J33R-KYK


There is a 12 year old John Christian on the 1891 census; a Fisherman, born Peel, living Rushen.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4B2R-33Z
The Herring Way (Bayr ny Skeddan) runs from Peel to Castletown, and was used by the herring fisherman to commute from 1 port to the other; so I think this is your man?

Possibly, he is in Toxteth Park in 1901?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9KK-WFK
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: tarquin christian on Friday 12 January 18 20:55 GMT (UK)
Thanks for all the help so far, it's put me on the right track for my grandparents as I had doubts because in my fathgers paperwork for his army service it has his mother as Elizabeth Allan in 1936 but Mrs C Christian in 1950 So that'll be a work in progress for later but I can continue with his side now

Once again thanks for all your input and help

 ;D
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Friday 12 January 18 21:20 GMT (UK)
If this is John Edward Christian in 1911, he has a brother

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lbh/

John Edward Christian Head 33   Kirk Andrews  Isle Of Man
Catherine Christian   Wife    33   Liverpool, Lancashire
William Lawrence Christian   Brother 30    Kirk Andrews  Isle Of Man

but wrong William - it would be a late baptism?
William Laurence Christian
Baptism Date:   21 May 1882 at    Andreas, Isle of Man
Father John Christian Parents: John Christian & Elizabeth Quayle

Peel and Kirk Andreas are some distance apart, so different people?

Added:
Different people, so ignore above - found another John E Christian in 1881.
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: KGarrad on Friday 12 January 18 21:32 GMT (UK)
Different people, I think, chempat! ;D
I saw the 1911 reference to Kirk Andrews - that has to be Kirk Andreas?
As I intimated earlier - there are an awful lot of Christian's! ::)

I think this might be William's baptism?
5 January 1851 at Patrick
William Thomas Christian, son of John Christian (fisherman) and Eliza.

Peel is almost at the conjunction of 2 parishes - Patrick and German ;D
This is the only William baptism, in either Patrick or German, 1850 to 1860.
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: tarquin christian on Friday 12 January 18 21:46 GMT (UK)
John e
The william 1851-1922 and catherine 1854-? I found has john edward as son and also william henry and thomas hope this helps to clear it up a little :D
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Friday 12 January 18 22:20 GMT (UK)
I cannot see a birth for a William Allan Christian with mmn Dowell in Liverpool (or anywhere else) has it been incorrectly recorded?
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: tarquin christian on Friday 12 January 18 22:32 GMT (UK)
No, as far as I can make out he never had a birth certificate, I do know that in the late 1970's he had to go to the local MP in Southend on Sea, Essex to obtain a passport to go abroad, despite having served in the army for many years including the Far East.  This has been my major problem in tracing his family as I never knew who they were and he never talked about them.   I know nothing about his first 20 years of life so I have no sources to refer to.  I have one random photo of 2 old people which may be totally wrong and that's all I know regarding his family
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Friday 12 January 18 22:45 GMT (UK)
So there is the possibility that John Edward and Catherine are not his parents?

I can see no births for Christian/Dowell, which is why I am getting confused.

Do you know when and where Catherine died, or did William's parents separate/divorce?
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Friday 12 January 18 22:57 GMT (UK)
In your tree on Ancestry you have that 1911 that I posted.

Are you confusing the John Edward Christians?
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Friday 12 January 18 23:03 GMT (UK)
You have put:
'my fathers paperwork for his army service it has his mother as Elizabeth Allan in 1936 but Mrs C Christian in 1950'

so was his Mother Elizabeth Allan, and only later married John Edward Christian?
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Saturday 13 January 18 08:50 GMT (UK)
Have you found any of your family on the 1939 register, and Catherine Dowell before her marriage on the censuses?
Title: Re: William Christian / Catherine Dowell
Post by: tarquin christian on Saturday 13 January 18 10:00 GMT (UK)
I found Catherine Dowell on North Isles Family History, (this also had her brother Andrew also at the same address and later they both lived at Wykeham Street, Kirkdale which I think tied up the correct people ) ( I hope ) and I looked up the address in Liverpool she lived at on 1891 census saying she was a resident at 33 Tillard St, Kirkdale, Liverpool, and Also the UKBMD index showing the marriage of John E Christian and Catherine Dowell in 1906 in Kirkdale
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 13 January 18 10:39 GMT (UK)
Catherine Dowell was born in Liverpool, 1878. Parents and siblings born Shetland.

1891 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:73F8-4MM
1901 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X925-2CS
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Saturday 13 January 18 17:00 GMT (UK)
If the correct family is the one I posted for 1911, as in:

John Edward Christian Head 33   Kirk Andrews  Isle Of Man
Catherine Christian   Wife    33   Liverpool, Lancashire
William Lawrence Christian   Brother 30    Kirk Andrews  Isle Of Man

then John Edward was not born in Peel but in Kirk Andreas  so you have the wrong John Edward Christian in censuses before 1911, and parents.

Have you applied for the marriage certificate of Catherine Dowell and John E Christian for further information on their families?
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: tarquin christian on Saturday 13 January 18 20:14 GMT (UK)
guess I'll have to stop until I get the marriage certificate for them as I'm not too sure now
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: tarquin christian on Saturday 13 January 18 20:25 GMT (UK)
I was basing my findings on this info from the ManxBMD.com
Birth, Marriage and Death Indexes for the Isle of Man

1878    Christian    John Edward    Peel    A1    46

As there was no other John Edward CHristian born on the IOM then
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Saturday 13 January 18 21:11 GMT (UK)
This is one of the John E Christians born in 1878 Isle of Man:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lbn/

John E. Christian married on 7th December 1903 in Cuyahoga, Ohio, United States, aged 25
born   Isle of Man
 Father's Name   Wm. Christian   Mother's Name   Elizabeth Clarke
Spouse's Name   Isabel Cowell age 25 born Isle of Man
her Father's Name Henry Cowell  her Mother's Name Mary A. Kennody
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: tarquin christian on Saturday 13 January 18 21:26 GMT (UK)
On my parents marriage certificate 1946 John Edward was living in Liverpool so I donít think he ever went to the USA
Thanks
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Saturday 13 January 18 21:35 GMT (UK)
So from the 1911, if this is your John Christian's brother:
William Laurence Christian
Baptism Date:   21 May 1882 at    Andreas, Isle of Man
Father John Christian Parents: John Christian & Elizabeth Quayle

then in 1881 there is this family surrounded on the census by more Christians and Quayles
Living at Ballasoddan Isle of Man
John Christian   30
Elizabeth J. Christian   22
John E. Christian   2  Andreas, Isle of Man
RG11/5599/42;p 2

there is also this baptism:
Lewis Alfred Christian mother Elizabeth Jane Quayle  Father John Edward Christian
Baptism:    25th August 1884 - Andreas, Isle of Man

Think you can look for marriage of Elizabeth Quayle and John Christian here:
http://www.imuseum.im/search/people/

(looks to be after John Edward Christian (junior)'s birth)
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Saturday 13 January 18 21:43 GMT (UK)
The John Edward Christian who married in USA in 1903, stayed there and died there:

John E . Christian born 18th May 1878 in Isle of Man died on 5th January 1946 at
Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, Ohio, United States of America
Cemetery:   Sunset Memorial Park  Burial or Cremation Place:   North Olmsted, Cuyahoga County, Ohio, United States of America
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: tarquin christian on Sunday 14 January 18 08:44 GMT (UK)
I need to see if any of these John Edward's served in the Armed Forces ( mmm 2 World Wars ) and lived at Wykeham Street as well as Married Catherine Dowell and then back track from there again.  Another small clue was my father William claimed once that maybe he was born in India but all Army paperwork says Kirkdale Liverpool, also said he had a brother called John who died in 1942 in Africa ( El Haifa ) My father was also in Africa during the was as well, but I've never found any one of that name in the war graves either, and he was known to bend the truth a little
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Sunday 14 January 18 10:18 GMT (UK)
There are lots of John Christians who died in 1942, just putting this one for later investigation, as he is lacking details (age??):

John Christian Given Initials: J  Rank:   Lance Corporal
Died 29th November 1942 in North Africa in the Infantry Reconnaissance Corps   
Born and lived in Liverpool  Number:   2720969


Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: tarquin christian on Sunday 14 January 18 10:53 GMT (UK)
Found this but parents dont match

Lance Corporal CHRISTIAN, JOHN. Service Number 2720969. Died 29/11/1942. Aged 22. 56th Regt. Reconnaissance Corps.

 Son of Walter and Josephine Christian.
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: tarquin christian on Sunday 14 January 18 19:00 GMT (UK)
Any idea where who or where this is this ? found in old pictures of my fathers
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: chempat on Sunday 14 January 18 22:07 GMT (UK)
Suggest you post it in The Common Room for some more general discussion.
Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: tarquin christian on Tuesday 23 January 18 12:57 GMT (UK)
Still waiting for the certificates but on searching for the location of a picture I posted it now seems I was researching the wrong John Edward Christian as some fellow Roots chatters found out, not only the location but Army papers and medals regarding John Edward Christian stating he was born in Kirk Andrews b 1878 and Army in 1898 till 1910 but also married Catherine Dowell, so I guessing this is the correct one to follow now


His fathers name is !!!!!!!! JS Hart ?? and lived at 29 Wolsley Street Liverpool.


So the 1911 Census must be the correct people and explains why he's not on the 1901 Census as he was serving in South Africa at the time


Thanks for you input and help



Title: Re: William Christian
Post by: tarquin christian on Monday 12 February 18 13:49 GMT (UK)
Finally have William Allen's birth certificate using the information found by your wonderful members.

Registration district Liverpool 1921 birth in sub district of Abercromby

Born in Liverpool maternity Hospital 20/09/1916, named William, Name of father None, mother Eliza Ann Allen formerly Jones of 85 Rushton Street ( where ever that is, need to look it up ) Address of mother 6 Albion Terrace, Low Hill ( where ever that is, need to look it up too ) quick look not found so I guess they turned into bomb sites.
Registered in December 1921 on the authority of the registration general.

Need to come to Liverpool to check out the records from the hospital, if here are any, and adoption area's for the John Edward link too