RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Geoff on Friday 12 January 18 01:18 GMT (UK)
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Has any Chater ever seen a notice or document that says their person
of interest has died and was then buried, all on the one day?
I have a death notice & a separate burial notice issued in Somerset that
claim these two events both occurred on the same day.
Cheers
Geoff
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If they were Muslim they would probably do that.
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Yes, my 3xG Grandmother, and also her mother-in-law. Both died of cholera, and same day burial was to prevent it spreading.
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From the Western Times - Friday 11 October 1872 This related to Typhus.
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I have 4 direct-blood relatives without a "cause" of death. Is there anyway to find out cause in English records aside from buying the death certificates? I only want cause, nothing more. For example, other countries include cause in various documents: South Africa (hospital); Canada (provincial to 1977); US (open Archive details digitalized soon after death).
For anyone's interest here are the four:
Joseph Wickens, 1806-1893, [3 Laburnum Rd, Chertsey, Surrey]
Mary Ann Keep Wickens, 1809-1892, [same]
Elizabeth Pickard Wickens 1847-1902, [30 Rochester St., Southampton]
Martha Young Roworth, 1849-1935, [98 Thanet St. Clay Cross, Derbyshire]
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I am an enthusiastic genealogist and pleased to say that in many respects genealogical research in the UK is much easier than in other countries because of records which are searchable by the public, for example registrations of births, marriages and deaths until 2007 are searchable on www.ancestry.com
However, there is an issue which is a cause of frustration.
When a death is registered at a Register Office, there is no requirement for the recording of the cemetery in which the deceased is interred or the crematorium in which the deceased is cremated. This information is usually recorded on death certificates in the USA, Canada, and Australia which it has been for many decades but not in the UK. As a result, the task of locating a grave or cremation is less easy in the UK than it is in other countries even though the Registrar who registered the death has that information and keeps it for five years. It really would not be difficult for Registrars to put this information in a box in a death certificate, so please ask your MP to write to Amber Rudd, Secretary of State for the Home Department (which oversees HM Passport Office) requesting that in future death certificates should include the name of cemeteries or crematoria. Time the UK followed the good practice of the colonies who left the Dark Ages long ago!
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It really would not be difficult for Registrars to put this information in a box in a death certificate, so please ask your MP to write to Amber Rudd, Secretary of State for the Home Department (which oversees HM Passport Office) requesting that in future death certificates should include the name of cemeteries or crematoria. Time the UK followed the good practice of the colonies who left the Dark Ages long ago!
I think that my MP has far more important things to deal with than making my family history research easier. :-\ Even knowing where someone is cremated will not necessarily tell you what happened to their remains.
ADDED As a death certificate is issued before funeral arrangements are made this would surely increase work as the information would have to be added later
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even though the Registrar who registered the death has that information and keeps it for five years.
I was unaware that the Registrar had to be told the place of burial or cremation when registering a death.
Stan
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Dear Stan
This information may not be available at the time a death is registered but a burial or cremation cannot proceed until the cemetery or crematorium has received a form from the Registrar. The Registrar receives the information from the informant or undertaker soon after death and keeps a record for five years only. Having spoken to some Registrars, they see no problem of adding the information to a death certificate at a later date (usually within a week of death) although there may be exceptions as there always are.
Dear Rosie
Thank Heavens you are not a Government Minister! My request is that serious genealogists ask their MPs to write to Amber Rudd because in England, we do not follow the long-established practices in countries like the USA, Canada and Australia. Serious genealogists know that if a grave can be located, they may discover that other relatives are buried in it or nearby as well, whose names may not have been mentioned in censuses or Wills. You should try looking for the graves of your relatives, and you may be surprised what you learn from the exercise, apart from how difficult it can be because it is not shown on a death certificate in the UK.
Ugga chugga!
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I did not decide where to inter my father’s ashes until some time after his death and cremation. There was no provision whatsoever for me to inform the registrar about the burial place.
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Dear Stan
This information may not be available at the time a death is registered but a burial or cremation cannot proceed until the cemetery or crematorium has received a form from the Registrar. Dear Rosie
When a death is registered the registrar then issues a green form confirming that the death has been registered. As the law states a burial can't take place without this. However at the time of registration the funeral arrangements may not have been made. So you are saying that the person arranging the funeral has to go back to the registrar to tell him where the burial has taken place. I can see nothing in the relevant acts of Parliament that requires this.
Stan
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Dear Stan
After a burial or cremation has taken place, the cemetery or crematorium tears off part of the form it received from the Registrar beforehand, and returns it to the Registrar to confirm the burial or cremation has taken place. This is not done by the informant nor the undertaker.
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I think that my MP has far more important things to deal with than making my family history research easier. :-\
Mine too! In fact I'd be pretty furious if I learned he was spending time trying to make my hobby easier when there are so many huge issues out there that he should be focusing on.
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The name of cemetery or crematorium in which a deceased is interred or cremated in the USA, Canada and Australia is recorded on death certificates going back many years.
The death certificate of a relative who was born in Kent and died in 1901 in New York, USA shows:
George Cotton b 20 Oct 1832 England d 17 Jul 1901 Manhattan, New York, USA buried 21 Jul 1901 Linden Hill United Methodist Cemetery, Ridgewood, Queens County, New York
The death certificate of a relative who was born in Northern Ireland and died in 1934 in Ontario, Canada shows:
Joseph Alexander Laird, b 12 Feb 1859 d 10 Mar 1934 Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, Canada buried 14 Mar 1934 Desbarats, Ontario, Canada, undertaker MS Sampson, Sault Ste. Marie.
The death certificate of a relative who was born in Scotland and died in 1957 in New South Wales, Australia shows:
George Milne d 24 Oct 1957 Grafton, New South Wales, Australia, buried 26 Oct 1957 Presbyterian cemetery, South Grafton. Undertaker - John Macdonald. Minister - W A Wilson, Presbyterian.
It is fortunate that the name of the cemetery is recorded on the death certificate because the burial records of the cemetery are incomplete, and this burial is omitted.
Please note also that the dates of burial above are only a few days after the death occurred which is fairly normal.
It is likely that death certificates in many other countries outside the United Kingdom include similar information. Civil registration of deaths in the UK remains in the Dark Ages!
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Dear Rosie
Thank Heavens you are not a Government Minister! My request is that serious genealogists ask their MPs to write to Amber Rudd because in England, we do not follow the long-established practices in countries like the USA, Canada and Australia. Serious genealogists know that if a grave can be located, they may discover that other relatives are buried in it or nearby as well, whose names may not have been mentioned in censuses or Wills. You should try looking for the graves of your relatives, and you may be surprised what you learn from the exercise, apart from how difficult it can be because it is not shown on a death certificate in the UK.
Ugga chugga!
I am glad I am not a government minister too. ::) You are suggesting that I am not a serious genealogist just because I disagree with what you said. :-\
I am well aware of what information you can get from burial/cemetery records having trawled through registers while doing my family history and trailing around churchyards looking for graves long before many records came online. Most of my family research has been done trawling through parish registers on film and visiting archives.
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I think that my MP has far more important things to deal with than making my family history research easier. :-\
Mine too! In fact I'd be pretty furious if I learned he was spending time trying to make my hobby easier when there are so many huge issues out there that he should be focusing on.
I agree.
There is no legal requirement to use an undertaker in the Uk. It is also perfectly legal to bury a body on private land, subject to the land owners permission and that you follow guidelines regarding proximity to water courses.
Regarding cremation, just because it occurs at a Crematorium it doesn't necessarily mean that is the final resting place. The Ashes can be disposed of anywhere, sometimes many years after the death.
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I find it extraordinary that eminent genealogists are in favour of important information kept by Registrars for only five years is not disclosed as a matter of routine as it is in the USA, Canada and Australia. Lamentable!
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I find it extraordinary that eminent genealogists want every bit of information on a plate. Surely part of the enjoyment of the hunt is finding this information that is not readily available. :-\
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Blimey! I suggest that you try creating memorials for each of your relatives the the FindAGrave website, if you know where they were interred or cremated, because you can link memorials to those of spouses and of parents. It would in future save others time in locating the graves or cremations.
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Dear Stan
After a burial or cremation has taken place, the cemetery or crematorium tears off part of the form it received from the Registrar beforehand, and returns it to the Registrar to confirm the burial or cremation has taken place. This is not done by the informant nor the undertaker.
I have found the relevant form. :)
Stan
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Thanks, Stan. The Registrar keeps the record for five years then it is destroyed! Valuable information lost, just like the 1926 Census Returns in Northern Ireland which were pulped during WW2 because the civil servants did not think the information would be of interest after they had extracted whatever they thought was important!
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Part C is attached to the bottom of the Green Form "Certificate for Burial or Cremation", so will be returned after the death has been registered and the death certificate issued, so how would the information be added to the death certificate/certificates already issued? Of course he could add it to the certificate in his registration book.
Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 Section 24
The registrar, upon registering any death, shall forthwith give to the person giving information concerning the death a certificate under his hand that he has registered the death;
Stan
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Yes, if boxes were added to the death certificate, they could be completed only after the burial or cremation has taken place, usually within a fortnight after the death was registered. It means that copies of certificates ordered on the date or shortly after registration would omit the information (the boxes would be empty), but copies ordered after the burial or cremation has taken place would include the name of the cemetery or crematorium. This is likely to be what happens in the USA, Canada and Australia. When copies of the registers are sent up to the GRO, hopefully nearly all death certificates would contain the name of the cemetery or crematorium, even when a death is subject to a Coroner's Inquest, when burial or cremation is delayed until after the verdict (but there will be a small number of instances where this is not possible). If they can do this in the USA, Canada and Australia, so can we in the UK!
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That seems a sensible suggestion for the future. I wasn't aware of Part C of the form. Do you know how long this has been available?
Stan
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Sorry, I do not know when that form was created and brought into use, likely to be after a change in the law concerning burials and cremations.
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Well, I guess that answers my question. Cause of death seems not officially recorded. But some record somewhere must have it. I am afraid that I have no MP to ask. My only ancestor MP died in 1913 and I live over 6,000 miles away from Westminster.
Thanks anyway. JIM
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That seems a sensible suggestion for the future. I wasn't aware of Part C of the form. Do you know how long this has been available?
Stan
Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1926.
3,-(1) The person effecting the disposal of the body of any deceased person shall, within ninety-six hours of the disposal, deliver to the registrar in the prescribed manner a notification as to the date, place and means of disposal of the body.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1926/48/pdfs/ukpga_19260048_en.pdf
Stan
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Gossypium's idea appeals to me. I have the death certificates issued in 1881 of a man and wife but I cannot find where they are buried. They were born and died in the same parish and I have trawled through 40-odd parish and cemetery records in the immediate vicinity but cannot find them.
I will certainly write to my MP about inserting the extra box. After all, I believe that the 1911 census publication was brought forward because of the pressure exerted by genealogists.
It is part of our democracy that every individual can have access to his MP and ask for a change in the law. We pay MPs to represent us and nowadays they have plenty of secretarial help.
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Clearly, my MP already wrote to H M Passport Office which oversees civil registration of births marriages and deaths and received some rather unhelpful responses from the civil servants who find reasons to do nothing! So I have asked that my MP to write to Amber Rudd who is the Secretary of State about this showing what they do in the USA, Canada and Australia.
If you tell me the names and dates and places of death of the persons whose graves you are trying to locate, I may be able to help as I am quite experienced in finding graves by now! No promises, however.
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Just to add that the Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1926, came into force on the 1st July 1927.
Stan
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Think of all of the burials and cremations since 1 July 1927 of which Registrars were informed but they subsequently destroyed the records instead of the information being captured permanently on death certificates!
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I have 4 direct-blood relatives without a "cause" of death. Is there anyway to find out cause in English records aside from buying the death certificates? I only want cause, nothing more. For example, other countries include cause in various documents: South Africa (hospital); Canada (provincial to 1977); US (open Archive details digitalized soon after death).
For anyone's interest here are the four:
Joseph Wickens, 1806-1893, [3 Laburnum Rd, Chertsey, Surrey]
Mary Ann Keep Wickens, 1809-1892, [same]
Elizabeth Pickard Wickens 1847-1902, [30 Rochester St., Southampton]
Martha Young Roworth, 1849-1935, [98 Thanet St. Clay Cross, Derbyshire]
Well, I guess that answers my question. Cause of death seems not officially recorded. But some record somewhere must have it. I am afraid that I have no MP to ask. My only ancestor MP died in 1913 and I live over 6,000 miles away from Westminster.
Thanks anyway. JIM
What a shame, boscoe, that your enquiry has been swamped by other matters and not dealt with.
The answer, as ever, has to be 'It depends ........'
There may be something in local newspapers, especially in cases of homicide or accidental death, or epidemical disease. I've also seen occasional notes as to manner of death in burial registers.
I have some transcripts of English hospital records showing patients' cause(s) of death - sadly not from your places of interest, but it shows that local history groups and/or family history societies are working in this area as well as the usual parish records. I obtained a full copy of an ancestor's hospital records from the relevant county record office.
Unfortunately most of these paths to knowledge require some outlay, but if you're familiar with the GRO's online certificate ordering system, you might want to order PDF copies of the death entries at £6 (instead of £9.25 for a paper cert). Be quick though, as this is a trial system and might end at any moment :o
Hope some of this helps :)
Carol
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Hi Gossypium,
I wonder if I can take up your kind offer for the burial place of my GGgrandfather.
If you tell me the names and dates and places of death of the persons whose graves you are trying to locate, I may be able to help as I am quite experienced in finding graves by now! No promises, however.
I can let you have a copy of his death cert. but no one has ever been able to locate his burial location.
If you prefer I can send a PM with details.
I have searched thru many parish burial transcripts etc all to no avail.
Alan
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I have sent a PM to Alan
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Re the issue of including 'disposal' information on death certificates, this could be helpful for future researchers but not in every case.
Three of my grandparents and both parents were cremated at the same crematorium. The grandparents' ashes remain there with plaques on a wall and well-kept rose bushes. My parents' ashes were taken to their village church and interred in the churchyard later - over a year later in Mum's case.
If later generations visited the crematorium, how would they know that two of those five ancestors are resting miles away and in a different county? Would future records be amended in such cases?
Apart from that, I don't know why changing the format of death records should be any harder than, say, adding mothers' names to marriage records. If only some genius had thought to propose both changes at the same time, and ideally without being supercilious about it.
Carol
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Hi Alan
I have located the burial of your ancestor in 1904. I have sent you a PM with my email address so that I can forward the image of the burial record to you.
Nick
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Part C returns tend to come in over weeks (and sometimes months) after the death is registered .... usually sent in by the undertakers.
Adding the information to the death registers would need a change in legislation - and in the vast majority of cases would only show a crematorium name. They never refer to subsequent disposal or burial of ashes.
When I was a registrar I did suggest to GRO that the Part C's held valuable information and should be kept and archived - but I don't think there are any plans to do so. As they are not sent on to GRO, I believe that the retention time and disposal of them is a matter for local Superintendent Registrars.
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Adding the information to the death registers would need a change in legislation - and in the vast majority of cases would only show a crematorium name. They never refer to subsequent disposal or burial of ashes.
Thank you Antony; I couldn't see how the final location of ashes could be recorded without resorting to GPS technology. (I hope no-one takes that idea seriously - please don't mention my name when writing to MPs etc.)
Carol
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If the name of a crematorium is recorded in a death certificate, anyone can ask the crematorium about the disposition of the ashes which may have been scattered in the gardens or collected by the family or undertaker. At least there is no grave to be located. If there is a grave to be located, the cemetery records should show if anybody else is buried in the same grave/plot. I hope that as many genealogists in the UK as possible are willing to do something to stop the loss of valuable data which could be captured on death certificates before the burial/cremation records are destroyed by the Registrars after five years!
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(Nobody will refer to) CarolA3, Rosie99, or Jomot who appear unwilling to do anything to stop the loss of valuable data which could be captured on death certificates before the burial/cremation records are destroyed by the Registrar after five years!
That comment is damned cheeky and does not help your argument. You need to understand that we are at least as committed as you are to the preservation of records, but in this case you may well be tilting at windmills.
Personal slurs are not welcome here. I advise you to edit your post before a moderator does it for you.
Carol
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The Government (in particular HM Passport Office which includes the General Register Office) remains unimpressed that death certificates in the USA, Canada and Australia include the place of burial or cremation and has no plans to change the law in this respect.
Perhaps Register Offices should be asked to contribute to the National Burials Index, the names of deceased, age at death and place of burial. Any views?