RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => United States of America => US Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Retpara on Sunday 14 January 18 10:36 GMT (UK)
-
Hi all,
Not sure if I have come to the right group, but I am looking for advise on which way to search for my Gt Gt Grandfather who disappeared off U.K. records early 1870's. A kind researcher found this information and passed onto me.
USA immigration.
It was after the the USA census of 1870, but before the 1871 census in Wales.
Name: Joseph Winter
Arrival Date: 27 Mar 1871
Birth Date: abt 1835
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality: English
Place of Origin: England
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England and Queenstown, Ireland
Destination: United States of America
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Abyssinia
He was travelling alone, but that was common - that spouses travelled on different ships.
It was also common that a place of origin would be recorded as England for Wales.
The date of disappearance is correct as is his date of birth so this makes him a great contender fo being my gt gt grandfather only difference is, his full name was Joseph Bayles Winter.
So any help and advise I am given would be really greatly appreciated.
Thanks to all in advance,
Retpara.
-
The way to move forward would be to track Joseph in the USA and see if the name Bayles occurs on a record.
familysearch has on the 1900 US census in Precinct 1, St Louis, Missouri:
Joseph B Winter age 67 born England (August) Arrived in USA 1870
married 37 years to Sarah A age 66 born England, Arrived in USA 1872
son William G (age 21 born Missouri)
(this family is also in St Louis, Missouri on the 1880 census)
This Joseph may be worth tracking back to find a marriage c1863 which may tell you more.
If this is your Joseph arriving in USA 1871 the marriage would probably have been in England.
Hope this helps
Philip
EDIT - just to confuse matters there is also a Bayles WINTER age 48 with wife Sarah A age 40 and son William G age 7 on the 1880 St Louis census.
-
A quick question: do you know where Joseph was born? (either from a baptism or earlier censuses). This could help finding a marriage for Joseph B and Sarah A (noted in my previous post) which could help rule him in or out.
Philip
-
This looks like it could be the grave of the Joseph B Winter on the 1900 Missouri census:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/114284973
Philip
-
If the 1918 death is him, the death certificate appears to be here - https://www.sos.mo.gov/images/archives/deathcerts/1918/1918_00003555.PDF No parents' names given, he was widowed, and his son appears to be the informant.
-
There are two Joseph Bayles Winter marriages in Wales in the 1860's, but neither seems to be to a Sarah.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JV3F-ZVF
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DKF-FTK
-
There are two Joseph Bayles Winter marriages in Wales in the 1860's, but neither seems to be to a Sarah.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JV3F-ZVF
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DKF-FTK
I was looking at marriages for Joseph Winter and Sarah in the UK, but there are too many! The likelihood is that Joseph was the son of Mr Winter and Miss Bayles, but I'm going to wait for Retpara to give us more info on Joseph's early life before I chase down too many red herrings.
Philip
-
Would be handy to know where Joseph Bayles Smith was born and who the parents were ?
The couple you mention on the first link Shelly are on the 1861 Wales Census Merthyr, Glamorgan, Wales - name altered by submitted correction on anc from Joseh Bayles to Joseph Bayles Winter.
Shelly's link - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JV3F-ZVF
Joseph Bayles 25 born Merthyr, Glamorgan.
Frances Bayles 26 born Tremains, Cardiganshire.
Second link Shelly gave - Joseph Bayles Winter and Eliza Youd -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DKF-FTK
Sandra
-
Just in case the St. Louis family is the right one, this appears to be the death certificate for William G. Winter, and it gives his parents as Joseph Winter and Sarah Ann Stone. https://www.sos.mo.gov/images/archives/deathcerts/1951/1951_00039922.PDF
-
Possible ??
There was a marriage Joseph K Winter to Sarah Ann Stone - 22 March1876 Pittsburgh Allegheny.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V2X3-J58
Sandra
-
Possible ??
There was a marriage Joseph K Winter to Sarah Ann Stone - 22 March1876 Pittsburgh Allegheny.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V2X3-J58
Sandra
If (and only if) the Joseph and Sarah on the 1900 census in St Louis are correct, they were married for 37 years - which suggests a marriage around 1863 (before they arrived in the US).
Philip
-
We all know that census information is not an exact science. Married 1863 and only one birth in 1879 would be a little strange - would it not ???
Lots of back ground information that was not given in the original post. It is always best to link previous topics on the same subject - it saves a lot of duplication.
Previous threads
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=540524.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=684645.0
Sandra
-
Previous threads
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=540524.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=684645.0
Sandra
Hmmmm.
As the previous threads show Joseph Bayles WINTER married Frances JOSEPH in 1861 and Eliza YOUD in 1867 (in Merthyr?) that rules out the Joseph B WINTER I found in St Louis, Missouri.
I would recommend that new replies be made on the thread started in 2014
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=684645.0
Philip
-
If the poster is looking for immigration help, then the USA board would have been the correct one to ask the question - the poster should have given more information in that original post including the relevant links to back ground information in those previous threads.
Sandra
-
Hi all,
Firstly thank you all for the information and input received so far. As I stated wasn't sure if I was in the right group or not, also apologies for not supplying enough information.
The info that I have so far is as follows:-
No birth certificate as born pre registration.
1st - 1861 Census living Tramroadside South, Merthyr Tydfil
2nd - Marriage to Francis Joseph 7th April 1861 in Merthyr Tydfil.
Francis Joseph died in the 3rd quarter 1866
3rd - Marriage to Eliza Youd 30th September 1867 in Treherbert.
Then disappears.
I hope this will help.
Thank you all,
Retpara.
-
Hi all,
Firstly thank you all for the information and input received so far. As I stated wasn't sure if I was in the right group or not, also apologies for not supplying enough information.
The info that I have so far is as follows:-
No birth certificate as born pre registration.
1st - 1861 Census living Tramroadside South, Merthyr Tydfil
2nd - Marriage to Francis Joseph 7th April 1861 in Merthyr Tydfil.
Francis Joseph died in the 3rd quarter 1866
3rd - Marriage to Eliza Youd 30th September 1867 in Treherbert.
Then disappears.
I hope this will help.
Thank you all,
Retpara.
We have found the information now - on a previous thread.
Have you got the marriage certificates for the sons Thomas and George ?
Sandra
-
Hi Sandra,
Thank you for your help. Yes I have the marriage certificate for Thomas Winter, whom was my gt grandfather. George as i recall never married and the two brothers were both killed together in the 1894 Albion Pit Disaster.
I have all my family history from Thomas Winter, but unable to locate Joseph Bayles Winter.
Thank you again,
Retpara.
-
What details did the marriage certificate (of Thomas Winter) give with regard to his father ?
Sandra
-
Hi again,
On Joseph Bayles Winter marriage to Francis Joseph, his fathers name was also Joseph Winter and he was a labourer. Seems to flow down the family line as my middle name is also Joseph.
Thanks again,
Retpara.
-
What did it say on the marriage certificate of Thomas Winter ?
Sandra
-
Hi,
On Thomas Winter marriage certificate on the 26th July 1884 to Elizabeth Lloyd states his fathers name was Joseph Winter and he was a puddler.
Thanks,
Retpara.
-
It doesn't say he was deceased..........so the son (Thomas) must have known where Joseph was - perhaps even local to him
Sandra
-
Hi Sandra,
Possibly, but there are no records showing Joseph Bayles Winter anywhere, as Thomas was married in 1884 and Joseph disappears earl 1870's.
Retpara.
-
Eliza and the other children - have you found those in later census ?
Sandra
-
Yes I have Sandra, got all the family history it's just what happened to Joseph Winter as he has us totally baffled we can only assume he emigrated at the moment.
Retpara.
-
Where are those children and the mother Eliza Davies/Youd/Winter on 1881/1891/1901 census etc.,
William Winter - mmn Davies -
GRO Reference: 1870 D Quarter in Merthyr Tydfil Volume 11A Page 337
birth of Daniel under Bailey
Daniel Bailey - mmn Davies
GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in Merthyr Tydfil Volume 11A Page 453
birth of Ann under Youd ................
Ann Youd - mmn Davies
GRO Reference: 1867 M Quarter in Merthyr Tydfil Volume 11A Page 416
George Winter - mmn Joseph
GRO Reference: 1863 D Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 318
Sandra
-
Some of these names are new on me Sandra,
George Winter as stated was Thomas Winters brother died 1894.
Ann Youd was possibly born previously to her mother marrying Joseph.
William Winter and Daniel Bayley is new to me so will research these, thank you.
(Perhaps there was an error with Daniels surname with the name Bayles).
Retpara.
-
That was information given to you in a previous thread by Heywood 21 April 2014 - good information and great discovery.
You need to research those names - Eliza may have remarried again (we would need to know what her marital status was if she did remarry) and the family may have stayed together but under a different surname ??? Obviously your Thomas and George moved into different households in 1881 but the rest are still a mystery.
Quote from: heywood on Monday 21 April 14 23:24 BST (UK)
I saw this earlier, having read your other thread and thought I would post it for information.
1871 5391/ 33 / 6
7 Robert's Square, Merthyr
Eliza Bailey married 29 yrs born Glamorgan Glynn Heath / Neath
Thomas Bailey son 9 yrs born Merthyr
George son 8 yrs born Merthyr
Plus younger children- Ann 5 yrs, Daniel 2 yrs and William 6 months. Also
Mother Ann Davis and Brother Thomas.
I was unsure but have just seen that in 1862 there was a William Youd and an Eliza Davies on the same marriage page and a death for William Youd in 1864.
Regards
Heywood
Sandra
-
Thank you for this Sandra missed that post will start research on this tomorrow. I know Eliza Davies married a William Youd but he died, she then married Joseph but the others I don't know about,
Thanks again,
Retpara.
-
Good Luck - Love to hear how you get on - you never know what further clues you could unravel
Sandra