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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: MaryanneR on Tuesday 16 January 18 06:39 GMT (UK)
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I am having a major problem linking my great-aunt Ellen Gooch to James Browne. Ellen Gooch came with her family in 1852 on the Washington Irving. I understand her Dad (Thomas Caesar Gooch) died on board and her mother (Charlotte Gooch) died two days after they arrived in Melbourne. The next information I have is Ellen went to Tasmania to be a governess to the Sir Valentine Fleming. At some stage she met a "James Browne" and in 1857 they had a daughter called "Anna Edith Browne" born in 1857. I also had another link that said they had a child which was stillborn. Then Ellen moved to New Zealand in about 1860 and settled in Tokomairiro, now called Milton. She was a governess for James Smith and then a teacher at the local school. She married Peter McGill, a flour miller in 1865 and they had 5 children. Ellen or Helen as she was known died in 1899.
What I to know - does anybody on this site have any information about "James Browne" Tasmania or Melbourne, when he married Ellen Gooch and what happened to James and their daughter Anna Edith before 1860.
Hope someone can solve this mystery for us.
Maryanne
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Tas Linc has Anna Edith BROWNE's birth 29 Dec 1857 Hobart. Father - James BROWNE, mechanic, mother Ellen BROWNE nee GOOCH.. Ellen was the informant and resided at Church St. A note also says she was baptised at St David's.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lcb/
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You may already have seen the birth register entry:
BROWNE, Anna Edith, born 29 December 1857
Father: Browne, James
Mother: Gooch, Ellen
Registered: Hobart, 1858,
Record ID:
NAME_INDEXES:962706
Resource: RGD33/1/7 no 1188
The entry shows that the mother Ellen BROWNE, formerly GOOCH, Church St, is the informant. Father's occupation: listed as a mechanic. The register has no name for the child but added later "Baptised St Davids Anna Edith"
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/
Do you know where Ellen was with Sir Valentine FLEMING? There is an Ellen GOOCH having a child registered Launceston, 1854. The father of the child is listed as John FIELD, farmer and there is a notation saying that the parents are not married. However, on looking at information about Valentine FLEMING he seems to have been in Hobart, at least for his marriage 1852 and the births of his children in the early 1850s so I think this is probably not your person.
Judith
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Can you list all the information on the marriage certificate?
BDM NZ marriage
1865/9355 Ellen BROWNE m. Peter McGILL
BDM NZ death
1885/3089 McGILL Ellen Annie Gooch 19Y
Can you list all the details on her death certificate. I am seeing six births to this couple, NZ?
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Tas Linc has Anna Edith BROWNE's birth 29 Dec 1857 Hobart. Father - James BROWNE, mechanic, mother Ellen BROWNE nee GOOCH.. Ellen was the informant and resided at Church St. A note also says she was baptised at St David's.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lcb/
Yes, this is the information I already have. Thanks
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You may already have seen the birth register entry:
BROWNE, Anna Edith, born 29 December 1857
Father: Browne, James
Mother: Gooch, Ellen
Registered: Hobart, 1858,
Record ID:
NAME_INDEXES:962706
Resource: RGD33/1/7 no 1188
The entry shows that the mother Ellen BROWNE, formerly GOOCH, Church St, is the informant. Father's occupation: listed as a mechanic. The register has no name for the child but added later "Baptised St Davids Anna Edith"
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/
Do you know where Ellen was with Sir Valentine FLEMING? There is an Ellen GOOCH having a child registered Launceston, 1854. The father of the child is listed as John FIELDfarmer and there is a notation saying that the parents are not married. However, on looking at information about Valentine FLEMING he seems to have been in Hobart, at least for his marriage 1852 and the births of his children in the early 1850s so I think this is probably not your person.
Judith
Sorry this is not the Ellen I am looking for.
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Can you list all the information on the marriage certificate?
BDM NZ marriage
1865/9355 Ellen BROWNE m. Peter McGILL
BDM NZ death
1885/3089 McGILL Ellen Annie Gooch 19Y
Can you list all the details on her death certificate. I am seeing six births to this couple, NZ?
Yes I know she married Peter McGill and had children in NZ. What I want to know was she (?) married to a James Browne in either Melbourne or Tasmania and what happened to their daughter.
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What I to know - does anybody on this site have any information about "James Browne" Tasmania or Melbourne, when he married Ellen Gooch and what happened to James and their daughter Anna Edith before 1860.
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You need more information than you are using here. Does the marriage certificate describe Ellen as a widow.....who are the witnesses (why is she in NZ)?
What children are named on her death certificate........how many years in NZ......how many years in Australia...any mention of a previous marriage.....etc.
What BDM certificates do you have?
This for Washington Irving, arr Dec 1852
GOOCH Thomas 52
GOOCH Charlotte 50
GOOCH Ellen 23
GOOCH Henry L 14
GOOCH Edward 10
GOOCH Thomas 1
If Thomas is a baby he could possibly be a child born to Charlotte....or is he a child born to Ellen?
So far I am seeing her as Ellen....where do you see her as Helen?
Where is the brother / sister of Ellen, your direct ancestor, when this family is in Victoria. Is your ancestor also in Victoria?
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You need more information than you are using here. Does the marriage certificate describe Ellen as a widow.....who are the witnesses (why is she in NZ)?
What children are named on her death certificate........how many years in NZ......how many years in Australia...any mention of a previous marriage.....etc.
What BDM certificates do you have?
This for Washington Irving, arr Dec 1852
GOOCH Thomas 52
GOOCH Charlotte 50
GOOCH Ellen 23
GOOCH Henry L 14
GOOCH Edward 10
GOOCH Thomas 1
If Thomas is a baby he could possibly be a child born to Charlotte....or is he a child born to Ellen?
So far I am seeing her as Ellen....where do you see her as Helen?
Where is the brother / sister of Ellen, your direct ancestor, when this family is in Victoria. Is your ancestor also in Victoria?
Yes, this is all the family that came to Australia. I know all that. The baby is Thomas and Charlotte's and also passed away on the boat.
Ellen was also know as Helen in our family.
What I to know - does anybody on this site have any information about "James Browne" Tasmania or Melbourne, when he married Ellen Gooch and what happened to James and their daughter Anna Edith before 1860.
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You need to do your research in steps. James BROWNE, Tasmania, is a really ordinary name, and no marriage to see, and he does not register the birth, and no age for him etc.....
If Ellen marries as a spinster, she would not have children with her, identified as son / daughter ........no Anna Edith. If Ellen marries as a widow you might hope she has a child / children with her.
If children on her death certificate include more than the McGILL children, that would suggest earlier children born to her.
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Ok here is the information I know so far about Ellen Browne (nee Gooch). She was often known as Helen in the family.
She came with her family from London to Port Philip in 1852 on the Washington Irving. The family were:-
Thomas Caesar Gooch - Father
Charlotte Gooch - Mother
Ellen Annie Gooch
Henry Luff Gooch - brother
Edward Albert Gooch - brother
Thomas Gooch - baby brother
Sadly Thomas Caesar and baby Thomas died at sea. Charlotte (the mother) died 2 days after arriving in Port Albert.
She had to look after Edward and Henry after this time.
Later Ellen became a governess for Sir Valentine Fleming and lived in Hobart, Tasmania
At some stage she met and (?) married James Browne, a mechanic. They had a daughter called Anna Edith Browne, and another daughter who was still born, in Hobart
About 1860 Ellen moved to New Zealand to become a governess for James Smith of Tokomairiro (now known as Milton). Not sure if James came with her as I can't find any information about this. She became the first teacher of the primary school there in 1863. She married Peter McGill in 1865. On the marriage certificate it says she is a widow.Ellen Annie Gooch McGill is Ellen's daughter.
Peter and Ellen had several children:-
Helen Annie Gooch McGill
Thomas Nance McGill
Emily Jane Wyatt McGill
James McGill
Charlotte Bloomfield McGill
Justina Falkland McGill
If anyone can fill in the following gaps for me that would be great:-
Marriage of Ellen Gooch to James Browne
Death of James Browne
Any information about Anna Edith Browne
I am trying to obtain Ellen's death certificate to see if there is any further information on this regarding James Browne. I cannot find an online record so I have contacted BDM to find the record for me. Sometimes there is a misprint when they were converting to online records.
Look forward to any information people may have
Thanks
Maryanne
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I notice that the NZ BDM online index has a death registration for a 19 year old lass, in 1885. Her name is indexed as Ellen Annie Gooch McGILL.
NZ BDM printouts are usually the better option when considering what to order. I would expect it to include burial information and also for example, where born, and how long in New Zealand.
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/home
JM
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Ellen Annie Gooch McGill is Ellen's daughter.
Peter and Ellen had several children:-
Helen Annie Gooch McGill
Thomas Nance McGill
Emily Jane Wyatt McGill
James McGill
Charlotte Bloomfield McGill
Justina Falkland McGill
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Have you searched here?
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/2125029
You can purchase a certificate online however I would suggest you purchase a print out of Ellen's death registration not the certificate.
Cando
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Marriage of Ellen Gooch to James Browne
Death of James Browne
Any information about Anna Edith Browne
Pity the surname is so common...
There is no GOOCH/BROWN/E marriage in Australia. I notice that Ellen was the informant on Anna's birth certificate.
Wonder if this is your man of interest :-\ According to my resource this James BROWNE was 39 when he committed suicide.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article3246402
Hobart Town Daily Mercury 1 Feb 1858
COUNTRY DISTRICTS
(From various Correspondents.)
BOTHWELL.
An Inquest was held on Wednesday last, on view of the body of a man named James Browne who had cut his throat on the previous day. The deceased had been fined £5 for harboring
a female passholder, and being unable to pay the amount he was sent to the Watch house. It was whilst there in custody he committed the fatal Act.
With a razor he severed his head almost from his body-cutting right through to the neck bone. At the inquest the jury returned a verdict of temporary insanity.
[How come the deceased with a razor about him when locked up in the watch house ? Was he not searched ? Ed. H T. M.]
Have you searched the passenger arrivals in NZ?
Cando
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"... I understand her Dad (Thomas Caesar Gooch) died on board and her mother (Charlotte Gooch) died two days after they arrived in Melbourne."
BDM VIC death
1853 / 21491 GORCH Charlotte parents UKN / UKN
What is the source of your information about the deaths on the ship....and Ellen's employment in Tasmania and New Zealand?
Nelson Evening Mail (New Zealand) 18 May 1876 p2
GOOCH— SPITTAL —By special license, by Dr. Tilby at Motupipi, Edward Albert GOOCH, youngest son of Caesar Thomas GOOCH, of Brundish. County of Suffolk, England, to Jessie SPITTAL youngest daughter of James SPITTAL of Takaka.
BDM NZ births
1866/31417 McGill Helen Annie Gooch parents Ellen / Peter
1867/31715 McGill Thomas Nance parents Ellen / Peter
1868/34474 McGill Emily Jane Wyatt parents Ellen / Peter
1869/35995 McGill James parents Ellen / Peter
1871/38923 McGill Charlotte Bloomfield parents Ellen / Peter
1873/27496 McGill Justina Falkland parents Ellen / Peter
NANCE, BLOOMFIELD and GOOCH are all names from Ellen's ancestry. These names are important to Ellen. If Anna Edith was brought up by her mother you might hope to see her also use family names.....GOOCH at least, if nothing else.
Look for Anna Edith / Edith Anna with Ellen as mother, and GOOCH used as given name for her children.
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wivenhoe....the OP is a GOOCH descendant so possibly has information that is not in the public arena.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=597330.msg5345394#msg5345394
Cando
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What is the source of your information about the deaths on the ship....and Ellen's employment in Tasmania and New Zealand?
Her obituary:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/BH18990804.2.19
I think this is a good possibility for the death of daughter Anna Edith aged 3 months without a surname:
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-5 (image 228)
Debra :)
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Thank you Debra. That would seem to account for Anna Edith.
I suspect that Helen McGILLs account of her life is a bit creative.
The Argus 29 Jun 1853 p4
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4793897?
If Mr Harry and Edward GOOCH will apply at the Post Office Melbourne they will find two letters from their sister who left Port Phillip in the month of February. 554**
The Argus 30 Jul 1853 p1
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4795153?
Harry and Edward GOOCH, your sister is desirous to hear from you; apply to Mr Robert BROWN 62 Collins St east, where a letter awaits you. 11646
Again, same paper, through August.
Robert BROWN is agent for "Rattler" Melbourne to Launceston, Feb 1853, and might be Ellen's arrival in Tasmania.
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Good find Debra :) I agree. Notice that the informant was a friend and more than likely wasn't sure of the surname and the father is now a carpenter. Of course there may have never been a Mr BROWNE. I wonder who is Mr Thomas RIGBY?
Nothing on the Tasmania Pioneer Index CD >:(
Agree wivenhoe. Obituary doesn't mention her relationship in Tasmania. Wonder the family didn't wonder why Ellen was a BROWNE when she married in NZ. Perhaps the contributor didn't know.
Cando
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I wonder who is Mr Thomas RIGBY?
It looks like Thomas F Rigby, so possibly Thomas Frankland RIGBY who arrived on the Blundell and was given ticket of leave in 1854.
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Interestingly, on Thomas Frankland RIGBY's marriage to Harriet TOOGOOD on 4 Oct 1851, he is a carpenter, and one of the witnesses is Emma BROWNE - though of course, it is a very common name. :)
Modified to add, yes - on the birth of his son in 1857 Thomas Rigby gives his address as Murray St, the same as in the death of little Anna Edith.
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RE... https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-5 (image 228)
The address recorded was Bathurst St for the birth and death of Anna Edith.
AND....Image 246 was the death of a James BROWN also of Bathurst St.
But he was aged 65y
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3249252
Co-incidence?
Essie
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Reply#20
Notice that the informant was a friend and more than likely wasn't sure of the surname and the father is now a carpenter.
Mmm Thomas RIGBY was a carpenter/builder so why did he note that the father of Anne Edith deceased, was a carpenter when her birth reg [ie it is the same child] noted her father as a mechanic.
Cando
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Thanks very much everyone for your great contribution to my search for information re Ellen Browne (nee Gooch). There is some useful information for me to follow-up. Unfortunately not much is know about this part of the family. My Aunty didn't know about the family going to Australia in 1852 and contributors could be well right about stories being embellished. For example it was always believed that edward came to NZ on his own at the age of 15 but I have evidence now that this is probably not true. I will keep up my search.
Thank you.
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Ellen Gooch (Helen) and Peter McGill were my great great Grandparents. I see that you have already been given a link to Ellen's obituary. Unfortunately, I have no information on her first marriage but if you have anything further I would be very interested. I haven't been able to find any information on whether her first marriage was in Australia or NZ. There was a James Brown (no e) that helped Peter McGill in Milton, but he was certainly alive after she married Peter. And there doesn't appear to be any mention of children from her first marriage, so I assumed they didn't survive.
The obituary for Peter McGill is:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/BH18941023.2.23?query=Thomas%20Gooch
I think that Edward and Henry came to NZ with Ellen. Edward stayed and made a life in Takaka but perhaps Henry returned to Australia.
If you have info about the Gooch family in England, I would also be interested.
Sorry, not much help from what you have got.
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Ellen Gooch (Helen) and Peter McGill were my great great Grandparents. I see that you have already been given a link to Ellen's obituary. Unfortunately, I have no information on her first marriage but if you have anything further I would be very interested. I haven't been able to find any information on whether her first marriage was in Australia or NZ. There was a James Brown (no e) that helped Peter McGill in Milton, but he was certainly alive after she married Peter. And there doesn't appear to be any mention of children from her first marriage, so I assumed they didn't survive.
The obituary for Peter McGill is:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/BH18941023.2.23?query=Thomas%20Gooch
I think that Edward and Henry came to NZ with Ellen. Edward stayed and made a life in Takaka but perhaps Henry returned to Australia.
If you have info about the Gooch family in England, I would also be interested.
Sorry, not much help from what you have got.
Hi Vanessa
Lovely to hear from a distant relation. Who were your grandparents and parents? The James Brown you speak of in Milton is Peter McGill's brother-in-law as his first wife was Jane Brown. I think Ellen married in Australia as she and James Browne had a daughter called Anna Edith but sadly she passed away in infancy.
Here is the birth record
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/search/results?qu=Ellen&qu=Gooch
I still don't have any definitive information about when Edward came to New Zealand and my Aunty (Christine Hayden, nee Gooch) is really desperate to find out this information. I do know Henry stayed in Australia, married and had a family there.
I have lots of information about the Gooch family in England and here in New Zealand and I can put you in touch with Aunty Christine if you like.
Would love to be in touch off line - my email address is nzscorpy@outlook.com
Maryanne