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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: westernwombat on Tuesday 16 January 18 23:38 GMT (UK)
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I would appreciate some help with records of births, etc in Apia, Samoa.
My direct line is to the reverend William Burns Landells 1814-1871, who emigrated from Alnwick, Northumberland to Melbourne, Victoria, Australia and died in Geelong, Victoria.
One of his 8 children was William George Landells b. 1840 in Sheffield, Yorkshire and d. 1870 in Geelong.
William George Landells married Isabella Baillie in 1863 in Geelong, and he died in 1870 in Geelong.
William James LANDELLS was the second of their 4 sons, and he was born 1866 in Eltham, Victoria (now an outer suburb of Melbourne) and he died in Queensland, Australia in 1954. Parents are named in both records.
Until now, I have negelcted researching this son, and have very poor information to start with.
From various online family trees, mainly MyHeritage and FamilySearch, I have seen William James Landells marriages (3) and children in Apia, Samoa.
Some of these records are totally illogical, in the death of the purported mother before her marriage and before the birth of the child.
These are the 3 marriages I have seen in the online trees -
1898 - in Apia, Upolu, Samoa - to Agnes Phoebe Netzler
1903 - in Apia, Upolu, Samoa - to Henrietta Netzler
1911 - in Apia, Upolu, Samoa - to Marguerite Violet Logan
Agnes Phoebe NETZLER
b. 7 Dec 1879, Samoa
d. 16 Jul 1901
buried European Cemetery, Apia, Tuamasaga, Samoa
Henrietta NETZLER
b. 1 Feb 1856, Samoa
d. 3 Jan 1875 Maalauli, Western Samoa, Samoa
Marguerite Violet LOGAN
b. 16 Jun 1871 Bagot's Well, South Australia, Australia
d. 5 Apr 1928, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
For the Australian Births and deaths, I have checked the various registries. But I would appreciate advice on where to get births, deaths, marriages for Samoa.
I should add that there is another Netzler, Henrietta Catherine - born in Samoa much later than the person listed above. And there are 7 children that I have seen connected to LANDELLS or the 3 wives; LOGAN had a marriage to Edward William ROBERTSON and Agnes Phoebe NETZLER to a KEISEWETTER (no children). Of the 4 children with surname LANDELLS, 3 were born in Samoa and died in Queensland, Australia.
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Do the online trees give sources for the information?
Have you questioned the tree owners?
(By the way, you said "various online family trees" - just because there are several all saying the same things, don't necessarily believe they are right and you are wrong - often people cut and paste other's trees into their own, including all the errors) :)
William James Landell's 1954 Qld death certificate should give the names of his wife/wives and children, if known by the informant.
Margueritte/Margaret's 1928 Qld d/c should give her place of birth and marriage. Index gives her parents as John Logan and Martha Smith, so informant may know other details about her. If she married William in Samoa, that adds some weight to the other information on the online trees, though it does not explain the anomalies you have found regarding ages.
It looks as though Qld certificates can now be downloaded immediately.
Sorry I can't help with Samoan records.
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Since I posted my reply you have added:
I should add that there is another Netzler, Henrietta Catherine - born in Samoa much later than the person listed above. And there are 7 children that I have seen connected to LANDELLS or the 3 wives; LOGAN had a marriage to Edward William ROBERTSON and Agnes Phoebe NETZLER to a KEISEWETTER (no children). Of the 4 children with surname LANDELLS, 3 were born in Samoa and died in Queensland, Australia.
It might just be me but I find this a little confusing. I realise that the relationships are fairly complicated but I am finding this a bit tricky to get my head around. ;)
I'm not sure if it will help anyone who wants to help you, but if you set out the three marriages, with names of children born to each marriage, as well as dates and places of birth and death, it might be a bit easier to follow and see how dates, names and places fit together.
Added: I think I have just found the tree you refer to on Familysearch. Is this where you got all of your information from?
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Yes, it is confusing. Sorry.
FindMyPast search shows the earliest marriage as -
Netzler, Phoebe Agnes - event date: 1896-1900 in record set: British Nationals Married Overseas 1818-2005, location: Samoa
The Family Search tree has only one source, "individual or family possessions", and the place of death (no date) is given as Brisbane, Queensland. marriage date given as 1898, Samoa - no source.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LDYX-3CR
However, Queensland BDM has a death record for Oscar Landells -
1984/57814 Oscar Landells Father: William Landells Mother: Phoebe Agnes Netzler
As indicated in a cross post in the Australia section, a slight clarification may be obtained from certificates or images but at this point I am not sure which I want to purchase at $20 to $30 each.
There are 4 Landells children, my source being other Family Search trees. The mother is stated as Henrietta Netzler, but as indicated above for Oscar the evidence is that it was Phoebe Agnes Netzler. Some public trees show Agnes Phoebe Netzler. Place of birth for these children is stated as Apia, Samoa.
So my evidence for the marriage to Henrietta Netzler is poor.
The 1911 marriage to Marguerite Violet Logan is via this Family Search tree -
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LDYX-3LD
which gives the marriage date and place as Samoa.
In that tree, her prior marriage (Robertson) and children are well substantiated by records in South Australia, Victoria, and Queensland.
The 1 child born to Marguerite Violet in Samoa - Faith Salute Landells, b. 1 Apr 1912, d. 18 Jul 1995 in Victoria Point, Queensland is "individual or family possessions". The death certificate for Marguerite Violet Landells may show that, and additional information.
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The 3 marriages of William James Landells and the children -
I have posted on your other thread and now reading this latest post on this thread ... I am becoming confuddled. Do you have the Qld death rego - it should help you.
Jm
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Not sure how I feel about "individual or family possessions" as a source, though it may be relevant. :-\
I realise that there is a cost involved but I think in order to clear this up, you should at least buy the d/c of William James Landells .... and hope that the informant was well informed about his marriage/s.
Just over $20 is not too bad cost wise for an instantly downloadable certificate.
Alternatively, contact the tree owner/s who may already have the certificates and be willing to share with you. :)
I note that on electoral rolls William is a blacksmith and dairyman of some sort. I'm not sure how much blacksmithing went on in Samoa. :-\
If I were you I would be curious to find out what the relationship is between the two Netzler women. ;D
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The Family Search tree has only one source, "individual or family possessions", and the place of death (no date) is given as Brisbane, Queensland. marriage date given as 1898, Samoa - no source.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LDYX-3CR
I can't see a death for Phoebe Agnes Landells on the Qld Justice site ....
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/217162245 Brisbane Tele 20 Dec 1954
LANDELLS, William James, Glenrose Road, Red Hill. (Metropolitan Funerals)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/50615893 Courier Mail 20 Dec 1954
LANDELLS Mr William James, Glenrosa Road, Red Hill. Relatives and Friends of Pastor and Mrs Don W*R, Mr W L*, Mr H V W*, Mr and Mrs W.P. M* are respectfully informed of the death of their beloved Father, Father-in-law and Grandfather. The funeral …. For Mt Thompson Crematorium … (JM notes I have not typed up the surnames and I have no knowledge as to if they are still living, but they are listed in the linked newspaper cutting).
For others following this thread, here's the live link to the other current thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=785892.0
JM
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from my armchair online searchings through free to search websites.
Samoan Baptisms for two with parents as William LANDELLS and …herthe NETZLER.
Isabella Martha LANDELLS, 3 July 1905, Apia, Upolu, Samoa
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGF5-Q84 (not from a submitted tree)
Oscar Frederic William LANDELLS August 1904
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGF5-WB5 (not from a submitted tree.
Death of
Agnes Phoebe LANDELLS buried 15 July1901. (born 7 December 1879).
Burial in the European Cemetery, Apia, Tuamasaga, Samoa.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKKS-W913
and photo of the grave
https://billiongraves.com/grave/person/16877219
JM
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Agnes buried in Samoa - no wonder I couldn't find her in Qld. ::)
(I am curious to discover what they were all doing in Samoa).
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Isabella Martha LANDELLS married 1928 Qld, #C103, Isabel Martha WEBER died 1954 Qld, parents as William James LANDELLE, Hertha NETZLER, #C1395 - as per free to search Qld BDM :)
Samoa - umm.... many reasons to go to the South Seas Islands ... missionaries, government admin staff, to support other family members already there, or escape from family members ....
JM
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I like your "missionary" suggestion JM (considering William's background). :)
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from my armchair online searchings through free to search websites.
Samoan Baptisms for two with parents as William LANDELLS and …herthe NETZLER.
Isabella Martha LANDELLS, 3 July 1905, Apia, Upolu, Samoa
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGF5-Q84 (not from a submitted tree)
Oscar Frederic William LANDELLS August 1904
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGF5-WB5 (not from a submitted tree.
Death of
Agnes Phoebe LANDELLS buried 15 July1901. (born 7 December 1879).
Burial in the European Cemetery, Apia, Tuamasaga, Samoa.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKKS-W913
and photo of the grave
https://billiongraves.com/grave/person/16877219
JM
Thanks once again, @majm.
I had found a Billion Graves photo for Henrietta Netzler, and in Qld BDM the death of Isabel Martha Landells in 1954 -
1954/C1395 Isabel Martha Weber Father: William James Landelle Mother: Hertha Netzler
Some of this is coming together. The cert for William James Landells is worth a try - he's more closely related to me.
Not sure why the Samoan link - I will have to check Trove and also the NZ newspapers I think. As there hasn't been much 'activity' in my line in Qld, I haven't checked much of the Qld newspaper writings in that period either.
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And another of interest, again from the free to search Qld BDM online
Death, 1984
#57814
Oscar LANDELLS
father as William Landells
mother as Phoebe Agnes Netzler
Add as per reply #3
JM
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http://www.samoa1904.de/misatelefoni_berlinspeech_2007_09_13.pdf
Mentions various migrant German families to Samoa, including NETZLER
JM
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http://www.samoa1904.de/misatelefoni_berlinspeech_2007_09_13.pdf
Mentions various migrant German families to Samoa, including NETZLER
JM
Numerous Netzlers in FS trees, in Samoa. I have 30, still looking for connection between Henrietta and Agnes Phoebe / Phoebe Agnes.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168634656
Shipping notices 1912 show Landells, W.J. Landells, W. Landells arriving "from south". I am assuming these members also arrived sometime prior from New Zealand or Samoa.
Also, a William James Landells was victim of theft, amount 18 shillings, in May 1931 - in Qld. I originally misread this as his conviction. Not so ..
However, there may have been several with the same name in Queensland.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/21738107
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.... Numerous Netzlers in FS trees, in Samoa. I have 30, still looking for connection between Henrietta and Agnes Phoebe / Phoebe Agnes......
And your OP notes a Henrietta as a possible wife (1903) of William James LANDELLS ... which is one of the reasons for suggesting you purchase his 1954 Qld death cert.
So there's possibly two named Henrietta :) that would be of interest to your quest.
JM
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Samoa Times and South Seas Gazette, Volume 3, Issue 123, 7 February 1880 Census list of foreigners in Apia.
NZ Papers Past (free to search of course) has NETZLER and LANDELLS (3 of them) on the same page of the above paper.
JM
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Samoa Times and South Seas Gazette, Volume 3, Issue 123, 7 February 1880 Census list of foreigners in Apia.
NZ Papers Past (free to search of course) has NETZLER and LANDELLS (3 of them) on the same page of the above paper.
JM
could be - Charles T Netzler was an American restaurant owner, the 3 "Landells" are "Yandell, half-cast".
But I will look harder at these Samoan newspapers. Thx
Earliest I found was an advertisement for W.J. Landells as Blacksmith, Horse Shoer, etc - Samoa Weekly Herald of 11 May, 1895
This adv seems to have been repeated regularly after that time (no doubt you found these also, @majm).
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Some excellent finds JM. :)
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Samoa Times and South Seas Gazette, Volume 3, Issue 123, 7 February 1880 Census list of foreigners in Apia.
NZ Papers Past (free to search of course) has NETZLER and LANDELLS (3 of them) on the same page of the above paper.
JM
could be - Charles T Netzler was an American restaurant owner, the 3 "Landells" are "Yandell, half-cast".
But I will look harder at these Samoan newspapers. Thx
Earliest I found was an advertisement for W.J. Landells as Blacksmith, Horse Shoer, etc - Samoa Weekly Herald of 11 May, 1895
This adv seems to have been repeated regularly after that time (no doubt you found these also, @majm).
May I please mention that this post has additional paragraphs added to it AFTER it had been read by me. There is NO indication by the OP to acknowledge these additional paragraphs/modifications. I recall reading the post late last night. I am in NSW. It is 10:26 (a.m.) at the moment.
I am concerned that there may be other modifications (without any supporting indication) to other posts on this thread thus altering the continuity and integrity of it.
May I again urge the OP to give serious consideration to obtaining the 1954 Qld BDM death rego for William.
JM
ADD.... 09:26 hours plus 1 hour for NSW summertime is 10:26 hours... ie about 1/2 hr after OPs profile read Last Active
... ::)
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OPs light was on when I commenced my recent reply.
ADD
Last Active 08:55 (a.m.) so just on half an hour before I posted.
JM
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Some excellent finds JM. :)
I read Ruskie's post last night, too.
I dont recall re-reading the OPs post at that time.
JM.
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Parallel thread with new information:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=785892.msg6416619#msg6416619
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I have been otherwise occupied for a week or so. The cross-post in Australia forum is repeated here for convenience -
The death certificate for WJ Landells (Qld) is rather terse.
I summarize:
He died 17 Dec 1954 in Queensland, aged 87.
It is recorded that he had lived in Melbourne; 30 years in Queensland.
The informant is his stepson, EW Robertson. He had 3 wives, all married in Apia, Samoa; #1 Phobie Netzler #2 Etta Netzler #3 Marguerite Robertson formerly Logan.
His age, at marriage date - 32, 37, 45 years respectively
Surviving children: By #1: 0 By #2: William James, age 50 By #3: Faith, age 42
Deceased children: 1 female, whose mother = #2.
I obtained this a week or so ago. This is in the main consistent with my information prior to obtaining the certificate.
The information that is hard to rationalize is the William James, aged 50.
Birth date was therefore 1904 (this is a 1954 death cert).
Coincidentally? This is the age of the stepson (who is the informant), and in a tree (w/o evidence) that I have seen, a William James Landells, b 1904 is listed.
I cannot imagine that his stepson EW Robertson, who published a statement in a local Samoa newspaper in 1923, to announce that he was changing his surname back from Landells to Robertson, would have been known as William James Landells (when his relinquished name was Edward William Landells) -
Samoanische Zeitung, Volume 23, Issue 45, 9 November 1923
"Public Notice. It is my desire to be known henceforth by my original name of Robertson, and I hereby notify that instead ot Edward William Landells I shall be henceforth Edward William Robertson. Apia, 7th Nov., 1923. "
I haven't located a 'candidate' for this other son, William James Landells b. 1904.
At that time, I believe that he (EW Robertson, informant), his mother, and step father WJ Landells were all in Samoa and WJ Landells was carrying on his horse-shoeing etc business (there are weekly advertisements in the local newspapers, over many years).
A newspaper report suggests to me that Landells' house and business was intentionally set afire (but not burned down) and this may have encouraged his departure. There are newspaper adv. over prior years when he is attempting to sell his property/properties in Samoa.
I have not discovered when any of the family departed Samoa - but Samoa had gone through turbulant times in all the period of residence of WJ Landells (1896 -?), and none of those events had encouraged them to depart.
I believe step[son EW Robertson married in Samoa, and that he and his wife later lived in Qld and died there.
Perhaps some of the experienced others may like to offer an interpretation of some of this?
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Hi,
Sorry to be random but not sure where to start but this chat forum might be good. Im looking for photos of my Great Grandpa who was an Engineer on William Landells Motor Boat "The Meg" over in Samoa. It launched on the 18/06/1919. My Grandpa' name is Manuel Silva Jr and his cousin Paul Scanlan was the Captain of the boat. Just wondering if William family may have pictures of the crew that was on that boat as i would like to put a face to my Great Grandpas name. I have attached small paragraphs of info from newspaper archives. If anyone can help please get intouch or reply to this post. Thank you.
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Sorry, I can't help at all on your search. I was not aware that he had a boat, "The Meg". Based on WJ Landells' business advertisements, I was guessing the year that he left Samoa for Australia (Queensland), but I will certainly look at Papers Past for 1919 onwards with more care.
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No worries. Was worth a try😊 Many thanks.
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Hi
Perhaps I can help
William James Llandells was my ggrandfather - I have some certificates and photos if that helps
Cheers Jenny