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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: GG2016 on Saturday 20 January 18 21:38 GMT (UK)
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good morning from Melbourne,
Looking to find out what I can about a British Soldier, located at Athlone Barracks.
1) how would I find out which regiment/rank he was?
2) do military records say where he was born (I know its England, somewhere).
3) he married a local girl and had 5 children but I'm struggling to find a marriage certificate.
4)He appears in the 1901 Irish census and is dead by 1904.
thanks in advance, any guidance would be appreciated.
GG
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Have you looked here for his marriage
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
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Can you tell us what you know? His name, approximate year of birth, wife's name?
When was he at Athlone?
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Yes!
name: George Mann
dob: 1849
Wife: Catherine McCormack (McCormick)
Died: 1904, Athlone workhouse
Born: england
Many thanks
GG
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Athlone_Urban__W_/Cemetery_Lane/1773516/
Have you got Margaret's marriage?
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For reference-
1901 census-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Athlone_Urban__W_/Cemetery_Lane/1773516
1904 death-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1904/05618/4579928.pdf
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Athlone_Urban__W_/Cemetery_Lane/1773516/
Have you got Margaret's marriage?
Unfortunately, not. Im wondering why her husband inst recorded at this address too. Perhaps he was a soldier in the barracks as well..
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For reference-
1901 census-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Athlone_Urban__W_/Cemetery_Lane/1773516
1904 death-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1904/05618/4579928.pdf
This is as far as I have gotten so far.. Thank you!
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Margaret was born Dec 1881
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/cert_amends/cert_1882/2020493a.pdf
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Athlone_Urban__W_/Cemetery_Lane/1773516/
Have you got Margaret's marriage?
Unfortunately, not. Im wondering why her husband inst recorded at this address too. Perhaps he was a soldier in the barracks as well..
So who is the George recorded at this address??
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If you check birth certificates for all the children you may narrow down the dates when George would have left Army. Have you searched for Army records?
Birth of Edward Joseph Mann (father George Mann, dealer)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1895/02226/1839315.pdf
Birth of John Edward Horatio Mann (father George Mann, labourer)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02463/1914825.pdf
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Athlone_Urban__W_/Cemetery_Lane/1773516/
Have you got Margaret's marriage?
Unfortunately, not. Im wondering why her husband inst recorded at this address too. Perhaps he was a soldier in the barracks as well..
So who is the George recorded at this address??
Margaret's husband.
If he is in the Barracks he will only be recorded by initials in the Census
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He's John Dick, soldier CR on son Georges birth in 1903
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1903/01857/1723638.pdf
at her age she can't have been married long so it not likely her father was still in the Army, looking at the births aghadowney found
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It doesn't help that Catherine can't decide where she was born.
Queens County in 1901
Tipperary in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Westmeath/Athlone_West_Urban/High_Street/876654/
BTW son John's marriage, I was checking it was the correct Catherine.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1911/09939/5613594.pdf
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If you check birth certificates for all the children you may narrow down the dates when George would have left Army. Have you searched for Army records?
Birth of Edward Joseph Mann (father George Mann, dealer)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1895/02226/1839315.pdf
Birth of John Edward Horatio Mann (father George Mann, labourer)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02463/1914825.pdf
Im intrigued with the middle name Horatio. Thank you!
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thank you everyone!
Im wondering what life would have been like as a protestant marrying a roman catholic (George mann and Kate McCormack) - I had assumed marriage wouldn't have been allowed.
Still hoping to find their marriage certificate.
GG
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If you check birth certificates for all the children you may narrow down the dates when George would have left Army. Have you searched for Army records?
Birth of Edward Joseph Mann (father George Mann, dealer)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1895/02226/1839315.pdf
Birth of John Edward Horatio Mann (father George Mann, labourer)-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02463/1914825.pdf
Im intrigued with the middle name Horatio. Thank you!
I have searched for Army records but havent been able to narrow things down. It would help to know which regiment George was in at Athlone.
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Marriage of John Dick and Maggie Mann in 1900:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1900/10365/5773160.pdf
Have you any evidence that George Mann was a soldier ?
Have you been able to find son George's birth record in England? Is he in Scotland in 1911?
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Have you any evidence that George Mann was a soldier ?
Margaret's birth cert gives his occupation as soldier.
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Where and when was Margaret born?
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OK I see Margaret's birth record now - Athlone in December 1881 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/cert_amends/cert_1882/2020493a.pdf
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OK I see Margaret's birth record now - Athlone in December 1881 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/cert_amends/cert_1882/2020493a.pdf
Margaret was born Dec 1881
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/cert_amends/cert_1882/2020493a.pdf
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Sorry Sinann I missed that one
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1st Battalion Prince of Wales's (North Staffordshire) Regiment (64th Foot) was at Athlone in December 1881.
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Private G Mann (1911) was discharged from the North Staffordshire Regiment (64th Foot) on 16 April 1883 having completed his service.
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Looks like he was recruited into the 64th Regiment in England in 1871 and was then sent to Dublin (per the 1871 "Worldwide Index" entries for Geo Mann).
Posted as a deserter in Glasgow in November 1874 and again in Jersey in December 1879 (records on Fold 3 for which I don't have a sub). Aged 22 and 27 respectively so born circa 1852.
His army discharge papers seem not to have survived but there may be more information in muster books and paylists at the National Archives.
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A bit of guesswork (having noted that many of the 64th came from Lichfield) brought me to this interesting possibility for George in the 1861 census:
Rotten Row, Lichfield
William Mann 60 labourer, Roscommon
Catherine Mann 56 wife, Ballanlubber
Patrick Mann 17 son, labourer, Roscommon
Bathley (Batholomew?) Mann 13 son, Roscommon
George Mann 10 son, Lichfield
The next household to be enumerated is Frederick Lees, a Drill Sergeant Major
However - those "deserter" records apparently give his birthplace as London
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Found some deserter information in the Police Gazette for 16 January 1880:
Born London, a labourer aged 27 2/3, 5' 5", lt brn hair, grey eyes, fresh complexion, deserted in Jersey 14 Dec 1879, off furlough. Moles over right hip and leg.
It's possible that he understated his age when joining the army in early 1871, in order to sign on as a boy soldier (not otherwise meeting the height requirement for a soldier).
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A bit of guesswork (having noted that many of the 64th came from Lichfield) brought me to this interesting possibility for George in the 1861 census:
Rotten Row, Lichfield
William Mann 60 labourer, Roscommon
Catherine Mann 56 wife, Ballanlubber
Patrick Mann 17 son, labourer, Roscommon
Bathley (Batholomew?) Mann 13 son, Roscommon
George Mann 10 son, Lichfield
The next household to be enumerated is Frederick Lees, a Drill Sergeant Major
However - those "deserter" records apparently give his birthplace as London
ShaunJ I am blown away with all of this information! It would seem then, that although George Mann was born in England, he himself was Irish descent. Incredible about the physical description as well - I myself have the grey eyes, although commonly mistaken for blue. I'd like to see the the paper work for "deserter" and discharge and then I think i will move on to looking at why he ended up in a workhouse and do some research on his father, William. Many thanks! Gayle
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People who died in the workhouse were often only there to take advantage of the hospital and were not inmates due to poverty etc.
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People who died in the workhouse were often only there to take advantage of the hospital and were not inmates due to poverty etc.
Really? That is interesting and it explains why his death certificate gave a residential address as well, meaning his family were still living there. Thank you for all your help!
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Do bear in mind that the George Mann from Lichfield is just an interesting possibility (because of the Roscommon connections), and that the evidence of the army record (per the Police Gazette) is that he was born in London.
Remember also that the evidence that George Mann of the 64th regiment is the right George Mann is entirely circumstantial. You should keep on searching for a marriage record.
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Do bear in mind that the George Mann from Lichfield is just an interesting possibility (because of the Roscommon connections), and that the evidence of the army record (per the Police Gazette) is that he was born in London.
Remember also that the evidence that George Mann of the 64th regiment is the right George Mann is entirely circumstantial. You should keep on searching for a marriage record.
Absolutely! I'm not officially recording anything without supporting evidence. I'll keep the marriage record search on the go. Thank you again. GG