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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: Amarow on Tuesday 23 January 18 11:25 GMT (UK)
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I’m looking for help with my ancestor Edward Anderson WILSON, born about 1837-9, possibly in or around Manchester, UK. He migrated to Australia, but I don’t know when or at which port he arrived. His marriage certificate states he was from Lancashire and that his parents were James WILSON and Katherine ANDERSON, but I cannot find a record for his birth, baptism or any records for his parents. The problem is that the name is too common and when I look he could be any one of dozen.
But he was married whilst still in the UK, so maybe this first wife in the UK had been looking for him! Unfortunately, I have no details of this marriage.
Is anybody able to look up a newspaper or gazette to see if a wife is looking for her estranged husband? Or make some suggestions for where I might find this sort of information.
I don’t know if he had children in the UK, but his first child in Australia was in 1875, so he could not have left the UK any later than 1873-74. I also know his profession was a journalist and he wrote turf or racing reports.
Any other brick-wall suggestions are welcome!
Thanks!
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Can you post his marriage details please - date, where and to whom as you say you have the certificate although english marriage certificates don't state where you are from just residence at time of marriage.
Pheno
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Unfortunately I know nothing of his marriage in the UK; I only have this information from his marriage in Sydney Australia in 1886, which was after the births of his three children in Australia. His conjugal status is "widower". I suggest that he was not able to legally marry his Australian wife until this time (even after his children were born in the 1870s) because his wife in the UK was still alive.
The Australian marriage certificate (7th Oct 1886) states that he is 47 year of age, a widower, a journalist, from Lancashire, his parents are James Wilson and Katherine Anderson and his father was a weaver.
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I wonder how he knew when his first wife had died ??? if he held off marrying his second wife there must have been a reason. Was she a spinster?
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To know that he was now a widower, I guess it means that he was in touch with someone in the UK.
When the first child Amy was born in 1875 in Melbourne, the mother is listed as Emma Agnes Wilson, formally Freeman. And they provided a wedding date of 4 December 1874. Imagine the surprise of my cousin when he went looking for that wedding certificate and turned up the other one for 1886!
Emma must of known from the start of their relationship that Edward was already married; and she must have been ok with posing as a married couple. Then when he's received the news of his wife's death, it looks like they've quietly visited a registry office to formalise their marriage.
Emma is listed as a spinster on the marriage certificate.
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Perhaps someone has access to UK police gazette records and can run a search?
Or is there a free database with similar information that I can search?
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
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When the first child Amy was born in 1875 in Melbourne, the mother is listed as Emma Agnes Wilson, formally Freeman.
Emma is listed as a spinster on the marriage certificate.
Just to clarify here details on the birth certificate of Amy.
Does the section for mother's name actually WILSON formerly FREEMAN?
OR
Does it say WILSON maiden name FREEMAN ?
There is a difference.
FORMERLY usually means a former married name, whilst maiden name means birth name.
Sue
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I don't have a copy of the Amy Wilson's birth certificate; I have the hand written notes from a person who has viewed it, which says that the mother was Emma Agnes Wilson, formally Freeman. So they lied - they said they were married, but they weren't. Emma Agnes Freeman and Edward Anderson Wilson weren't married until 1886 in Sydney and on her marriage she is a spinster.
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Yes,
I understand what you have said.
My point is .
If she was FORMERLY FREEMAN, then it means she had been married.
This marriage, would then be an obstacle to an earlier marriage to WILSON.
That is why the exact wording is important.
The fact she stated spinster on the marriage may or may not be the truth.
Sue
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Another question if I may.
When and where did Edward die?
Does the death certificate name his parents?
If you have no information about the first marriage, how do you know he was married in England at all?
I don’t know if he had children in the UK, but his first child in Australia was in 1875, so he could not have left the UK any later than 1873-74. I also know his profession was a journalist and he wrote turf or racing reports.
Or arrived a good deal earlier as you do not know his marriage date if there was one in England.
Sue
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Hi Sue,
The word "formally" may have just been the language used by the person who copied the details from the marriage certificate. I am quite certain that Emma Freeman was not married previously.
I believe Edward was married because he described himself as a widower at the time of his marriage to Emma and because his death certificate suggests the same.
Edward died 3 July 1900 in Sydney. The information on Edward's death certificate was provided by his wife, Emma. Informants are not always reliable, but the relevant information reads as follows:
Age - 62 years
Name and occupation of father and mother's maiden name - unknown
Religion - Church of England
Where born and how long in the Australian Colonies - Lancashire England, 11 years Victoria, 16 years Sydney
Place of marriage, age and to whom - 1) England - unknown; 2) Emma Agnes Freeman, Melbourne, 35 years
Children of marriage - 1st marriage not known; 2nd Amy 24 Archibald 22 Frederick 20 All Living, None deceased
Note that 35 years refers to his age at the time of marriage, but he was not actually married to Emma until 1886. So this was clearly a lie!
No parents names are given on his death certificate; he provided that information himself at the time of his marriage to Emma.
Emma is also suggesting that he arrived in Australia in around 1873; this may or may not be the case. I can find lots of Edward Wilsons arriving in Australia before and after this time from all over the UK and I have no idea which one he would be. Trying to match him to a birth/baptism record is just as difficult, which is why I though that there might be a slim chance that a UK wife would be looking for him - a notice in a police gazette or a newspaper could potentially shed more light on who he might actually be.
Amanda
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Hi Amanda,
Thanks for the details from Edward's death certificate.
It has helped to put your request in a much clearer light as it gives the source of much of the information given on your earlier posts.
I agree that Emma was not revealing the whole truth at the time of the death.
She "knew nothing" about the previous marriage details and family because it was perhaps best to pretend it never happened.
Edward was interred Waverly Cemetery according to the funeral notice.
Was Emma buried there also?
Worth bearing in mind that people escaping an unsatisfactory marriage often registered on the ship for immigration under a different name.
Sometimes people retained this alternate name permanently, sometimes not. Makes your search even trickier.
Sue
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I am following this thread and becoming confuddled. Are you sure it says 'formally' in this sense a formal name recorded at a formal marriage meaning at a marriage that is registered with the legal civil authorities ie a formal marriage rather than a de facto one. ... OR perhaps you mean 'formerly' as in a previous name ... usually the maiden name but can be a 'lately' name in the sense of laterly being recent...
Sorry for being pedant but I think I can help if I can be un-confuddled.
JM
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1870s- mid 1890s NSW clergy determine the words to describe status of the parties if a church wedding. Choices were bachelor/spinster; widower/widow; petitioner/divorcee...
Widower/widow indicates that person is a parent WITH accompaning children ... It Does NOT mean there was proof of earlier formal marriage. I suggest that in this instance it was purposedly used to give their young children's names the legitimacy that perhaps society expected.
JM
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Hi Sue,
Emma knew that Edward had been married in the UK, but they probably didn't discuss it.
Edward is at Waverly, but Emma vanishes, so to speak. I believe she remarried and probably died in the early 1900s, but that information is anecdotal.
If Edward Anderson Wilson was someone else at birth, then I have no hope of finding out who he was!! :(
JM - the word formally in this situation means previously; just a different way to write Emma Agnes Wilson (nee Freeman). But this information was on the birth certificate of their first born child, Amy and they were lying - they weren't married at all. When Edward and Emma finally married it was in 1886. I believe in this situation that widower means that his UK wife has passed away.
It's all very confuddling!! I was just hoping that the UK wife (Edwards first wife) was looking for him. If she was there may have been a notice in a police gazette or newspaper, perhaps sometime after 1860, maybe?? I don't have access to UK police gazette or newspapers, so I can't search for it.
Amanda
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Hi Sue,
Emma knew that Edward had been married in the UK, but they probably didn't discuss it.
Edward is at Waverly, but Emma vanishes, so to speak. I believe she remarried and probably died in the early 1900s, but that information is anecdotal.
If Edward Anderson Wilson was someone else at birth, then I have no hope of finding out who he was!! :(
JM - the word formally in this situation means previously; just a different way to write Emma Agnes Wilson (nee Freeman). But this information was on the birth certificate of their first born child, Amy and they were lying - they weren't married at all. When Edward and Emma finally married it was in 1886. I believe in this situation that widower means that his UK wife has passed away.
It's all very confuddling!! I was just hoping that the UK wife (Edwards first wife) was looking for him. If she was there may have been a notice in a police gazette or newspaper, perhaps sometime after 1860, maybe?? I don't have access to UK police gazette or newspapers, so I can't search for it.
Amanda
Hi Amanda,
With respect I would like to say that a great deal of your material is speculative and based what you think.
This is not sound research.
The information from the marriage certificate has come from notes made by someone else, so you are not able to sight it firsthand.
I would also like to stress as has JM (who by the way is extremely well-versed in the wording and idiom of Australian BMD documents ) has tried to explain the difference between three words
FORMALLY
FORMERLY
MAIDEN NAME
FORMALLY and FORMERLY are not different spellings of the same word.
They have different and significant differences.
However, having said all that ;D I hope you have success in your search.
Was Edward part of your direct line?
Are you descended from one of his three children?
Sue
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Hi Sue,
Just to clarify, the information on the marriage and death certificates are not notes - I have copied the information here as it appears on those certificates.
I do not have a birth certificate for Amy - I have never viewed it.
I have sifted through some other documents and found a birth certificate for Archibald and it reads Emma Wilson formerly Freeman; but, as far as I am aware, there is no marriage for Emma Freeman until 1886, at which time she gives her name as Emma Freeman.
Based on the fact that Edward Wilson appears to have been married in the UK and that the wife was possibly still alive at the time of Amy's birth in Australia, I am exploring the possibility that she (the first wife) may have been looking for him. There could be a newspaper notice that fits the description of Edward Wilson. Yes, that's speculation, but it is a plausible line of inquiry, given that the marriage and death certificates, which I have, very strongly suggest that he was married; and I don't have any other information about him. Would you do something different in this circumstance? At the moment, I don't know what else I can look up. Do you have any suggestions?
Amanda
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Civil registrations commence in England in 1837, so you could look for an English marriage for Edward using various online indexes .... and hopefully find one, and then find death of the wife. He may have been known by the surname ANDERSON :)
Try these:
https://www.familysearch.org/search
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
(Trove is an ongoing project)
You can search through the digitised (Australian) newspapers here:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y
You can search through the digitised gazettes here:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/gazette/search?adv=y&searchTerm=
I can find many many examples of NSW statute law recognising de facto marriages throughout much of the 1800s. May I please re-assure you that it is not unusual to see a male person noted as a widower on a NSW Marriage cert for any of the years 1856-1895 and NOT find a previous marriage for him. The word (widower/widow) had a broad meaning, particularly when used by NSW clergy. There was a serious and long running dispute between 'Church' and 'State' over the depth of details NSW civil admin required of clergy conducting marriages in NSW.
From the 1886 document can you please indicate how many Church registers were accessed by NSW BDM officers to reconcile the summary info received in 1886 and the full info about both the bride and groom and their origins (including parents etc) in 1912-1915. Also the denomination of the clergyman... I will try to help further, as if it were a C of E marriage, there may be further info in different registers.
ADD
eg a family sheet ... giving year of arrival, occasionally it can even include the naming of the ship ... :) (Clergy's 'cheat sheet' for each family )
JM
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Yes, I understand what your line of thinking is. ;D
Regrettably there seems no accessible record at present for a wife in England requesting her absent husband's whereabouts.
Where does Emma give as her place of birth and her parents names on the marriage certificate, please?
Sue
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Hi Sue,
Just to clarify, the information on the marriage and death certificates are not notes - I have copied the information here as it appears on those certificates.
I do not have a birth certificate for Amy - I have never viewed it.
I have sifted through some other documents and found a birth certificate for Archibald and it reads Emma Wilson formerly Freeman; but, as far as I am aware, there is no marriage for Emma Freeman until 1886, at which time she gives her name as Emma Freeman.
Based on the fact that Edward Wilson appears to have been married in the UK and that the wife was possibly still alive at the time of Amy's birth in Australia, I am exploring the possibility that she (the first wife) may have been looking for him. There could be a newspaper notice that fits the description of Edward Wilson. Yes, that's speculation, but it is a plausible line of inquiry, given that the marriage and death certificates, which I have, very strongly suggest that he was married; and I don't have any other information about him. Would you do something different in this circumstance? At the moment, I don't know what else I can look up. Do you have any suggestions?
Amanda
There is nothing wrong with Emma giving her surname as WILSON when registering her babies. It was obviously her 'known by' surname at that time. NSW BDM did not commence to give babies a surname until about 1969. Children were known by the surname their mum used. So if Emma and Edward were in a committed relationship, in the 1870s and 1880s, it is very likely she was known by his surname. NSW statute law has been recognising de facto marriages since at least the 1810s and in a formal sense since 19 July 1823, with the commencement of the Charter of Justice and the first NSW Supreme Court. There's an English marriage act of 18 July 1823 that recognised marriages abroad.
JM
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I am thinking of the seven year rule :) effectively terminating any English marriage by the separation beyond the seas. It was NOT just a rule to permit convicts to marry in the colonies.
There's been some threads ....
Back shortly with live links.
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Certainly convicts were allowed to remarry if they'd been 'out of/away from the marriage' for more than seven years - but I don't think this was considered bigamy - the more so as they had very little hope of ever returning to England.
Their partners in England could also remarry if their convicted OH's had been gone for more than 7 years . . . so, not just occurring in Australia. The marriage was considered void is my understanding, so not bigamy.
No doubt someone will correct me if I am wrong.
Wiggy
You are correct Wiggy
The law "An Act to restrain all Persons from Marriage until their former Wives and former Husbands be dead" was introduced in 1604.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/1604.htm
Section 2 of this 'bigamy' act allowed partners to remarry if the other was overseas for at least 7 years or if they had no knowledge of their partner being alive for 7 years.
The wording of section II puts it like this :
"II. Provided always, That this Act, nor any Thing therein contained, shall extend to any Person or Persons whose Husband or Wife shall be continually remaining beyond the Seas by the Space of seven Years together, or whose Husband or Wife shall absent him or herself the one from the other by the Space of seven Years together, in any Parts within his Majesty’s Dominions, the one of them not knowing the other to be living within that Time. "
Cheers
Guy
:) :) :)
PS, significance of 19 July 1823 .... NO English law made on or after that date could be held valid in the colony of NSW unless it specifically nominated that it was to be effective in NSW. :) This is important from family history point of view as it means that the marriage acts AFTER the 18 July 1823 had NO effect in NSW or its territories...
:) :) :)
JM
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Just adding a note here, too.
Divorce was rare and very expensive in 19th century.
Many marriages ended by mutual consent and one or other party became "absent"
Time passed and new relationships formed.
Sue
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Funeral for Edward A WILSON from Sydney Hospital to Waverley Cemetery, 5 July 1900.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14321984 smh 5 July 1900.
IM notice SMH 3 July 1901
WILSON – In loving memory of my dear father, Edward A Wilson, who departed this life 3 July 1900. Inserted by his loving son, A.P. Wilson. …
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14394842 smh 3 July 1901
Do you have A.P. Wilson’s birth cert, and if so, what information is recorded there about his DAD … (Assuming A P is Archibald)
JM
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South Australian birth… 5 October 1877, Archibald Percy WILSON,
Father as Edward Anderson WILSON
Mother as Emma Agnes FREEMAN
District: Adelaide
Reg 190/136
I am not familiar with S.A. family history but I understand scant info on their bdm certs.
JM
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These are the headings on a NSW BDM marriage cert for 1886:
Date and place of marriage
Names and surnames of parties
Conjugal status
Birthplace
Married in the
According to
Usual Occupation
Age
Usual place of residence
Father’s name Mother’s name and maiden surname
Father’s occupation
Signatures of the groom and bride
Signatures of the witnesses
Signature of the clergy
Right hand margin will include details of the church registers that provided the info needed when reconciling the civil registrations in the 1912-1915 era.
JM
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Thanks JM - apologies for my slow relpy; I live in an internet black-spot and it's really struggling today!!
Here are the details on the NSW marriage cert.
No - 206
Date and place of marriage - 7 October 1886, Newtown
Names and surnames of parties - Edward Anderson Wilson Emma Agnes Freeman
Conjugal status - Widower Spinster
Birthplace - Lancashire England Launceston Tasmania
Usual Occupation - Journalist Living with friends
Age - 47 30
Usual place of residence - Newtown Newtown
Father's name mother's name and maiden surname - James Wilson, Katherine Anderson _____ Freeman, Jane _____
Father's occupation - Weaver Ships Chandler
They have both signed it in the presence of the witnesses, (who's names I struggle to read, but they are appear to be Amy and Lizzie Newman) before the registrar. Clergyman is crossed out.
It also says that they were married at the Registrar's Office in Newtown.
Amanda
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thank you for typing that up.
So they married at the local registrar's office. That rules out my thoughts of getting to a C of E family sheet. I will pull my thinking cap down harder.
JM
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If Emma's age and place of birth is accurate, perhaps the following is her birth
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTXF-Z78
Female FREEMAN 28 Feb 1856 Tasmania
Father Joseph Freeman
Mother Jane Stewart
This would support her being a spinster.
JM
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I have not forgotten the goal is to find Edward Anderson WILSON's origins and poss first marriage
BUT just in case this may well be Emily :)
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD33-1-34p603j2k
JM
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South Australian birth… 5 October 1877, Archibald Percy WILSON,
Father as Edward Anderson WILSON
Mother as Emma Agnes FREEMAN
District: Adelaide
Reg 190/136
I have a very poor copy of this certificate and it appears to say the mother is Emma Agnes Wilson formerly Freeman. The father's occupation on this is 'editor of a newspaper'.
Amy was born in Melbourne, George Frederick believed he was also born in Adelaide in 1879, but I cannot find a record of his birth or baptism.
I also have this article from Trove, which has rather a lot of information, but based on what people believe they knew about him.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230635543?searchTerm=death%20of%20Mr%20e%20a%20wilson&searchLimits=
I believe that is Emma's baptism, even though it doesn't have her name on it. It seems to match up with similar records for her siblings.
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Sands 1895 Sydney Alpha Directory
WILSON, E.A. secretary Associated Pony and Galloway Racing Clubs, 189 Pitt Street
WILSON, Mrs. E.A, 23 Railway Street, Petersham.
:) :) :) That's likely them at home at Petersham, and his workplace in the city.
JM
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Sands 1890
Edward WILSON, journalist, Station St, Newtown.
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
JM
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George Frederick believed he was also born in Adelaide in 1879, but I cannot find a record of his birth or baptism.
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George Frederick died in 1956.
He was married to Eleanor Mary O'DWYER late in life.
Do you have a death notice or certificate which would give you the age of George Frederick at death?
The Ryerson Index does not give his age.
His marriage in 1950 would clarify.
Sue
PS.
Glad to see the marital status of Emma Agnes is a resolved issue ;D
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George Frederick died in 1956.
He was married to Eleanor Mary O'DWYER late in life.
Do you have a death notice or certificate which would give you the age of George Frederick at death?
The Ryerson Index does not give his age.
His marriage in 1950 would clarify.
George's first marriage to Rose Davies 25/11/1901 says birthplace Adelaide and age 22.
George's second marriage to Eleanor Mary O'Dwyer 12/12/1950, he says hes 71.
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I have been trying to locate Emma Agnes FREEMAN in the years before her pregnancy in the hope of also of finding Edward Anderson WILSON., thus finding the earliest circumstances of the relationship
No real luck :o, but here FYI.
Jane FREEMAN remarried in 1871 after death of Joseph FREEMAN the father of Emma.
In Brighton Victoria .
FREEMAN, Jane (born Belfast)
STEWART, James
1871
Reg 781
Details
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/39680702
She died in 1886 in Victoria.
STEWART, Jane
Father McCORMICK
Mother not known
At Brtn
1886
EDIT .. Aged 65
Reg 410
Death Notice
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/6082838
She left a will which is digitized.
https://www.prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/wills-and-probates.
Bequeathed to Martha FREEMAN, "my daughter who resides with me"
Sue.
EDIT I am adding here for your interest, but sadly no help at all.
Martha died in 1921.
Martha FREEMAN
Age 75
At Hawthorn, Victoria
Father Freeman
Mother Jane
Year 1921
Reg 1909
Her substantial estate was bequeathed to her godson.
Sue
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Thank you Sue and JM for your help and suggestions!
She died in 1886 in Victoria.
STEWART, Jane
Father McCORMICK
Mother not known
At Brtn
1886
EDIT .. Aged 65
Reg 410
I'd seen other articles in Trove of Martha in Brighton, but not really connected the dots. That's great, thank you!
I've also managed to uncover the death Emma Wilson! If her husband and sons hadn't been Sydney identities the newspaper may never have picked up the story! But I haven't had any luck with Edward Wilson!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/229068057?searchTerm=death%20wilson&searchLimits=l-decade=190|||l-year=1902
Regards,
Amanda
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Good to hear we have made some movement forward in the search. :D :D
Sue
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On my e reader so apologies for typos...
Wondering why she was in western NSW during hotest time of the year.. I will go through my off line resources ... to see if any Wilson families there in 1902ish ... perhaps with middle given name to match Edward ... I can speculate ... but shouldn't.
JM
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An obit to Edward http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article230635543
Ros