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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: aus*jen on Thursday 25 January 18 04:07 GMT (UK)

Title: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Thursday 25 January 18 04:07 GMT (UK)
This photo was found in family album which dates from 1880's.  Would appreciate help identifying
the uniform/costume which may help to identify subject.  The cap appears to have a crown.  The UK postal museum has confirmed it is not a postal uniform.  The photographer was S. Edwin, 113 Clarence Road.  No identifying town or city on photo.   The two buttons between the lapels are
distinctive.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Trishanne on Thursday 25 January 18 10:36 GMT (UK)
 This photo is of a railwayman in the 1880s, it looks a similar uniform, each company had slightly different uniforms.    http://c8.alamy.com/comp/KRD210/a-young-victorian-railwayman-poses-in-his-uniform-date-circa-1880s-KRD210.jpg
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: jim1 on Thursday 25 January 18 10:58 GMT (UK)
The picture dates from around 1908-12.
The crown indicates to me he may be a mariner of some description.
Railwaymen tended to have the company logo on their caps.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Thursday 25 January 18 22:55 GMT (UK)
Trishanne thankyou for the link.  The cap is different to the one in the posted photo.

Jim,  Thankyou for your comments and the date.  There is a Clarence Rd. in Portsmouth so that would agree with the possible mariner.  There is a second photo in the album, J. Long & Son Portsmouth.  Jim, do you think the young man on the right could be the man in uniform? He has the same distinctive earlobe and both have a long face.  Would both photos have been taken at a similar time?

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: MaureeninNY on Thursday 25 January 18 23:19 GMT (UK)
There are a handful of newspaper adverts (all in 1906) like this:
S EDWIN, Photographer, PARK STUDIO, Near Park Entrance. 113. CLARENCE ROAD, GRAYS. PORTRAITURE in any Style Moderate Prices. Call or write for price list.

March 17, 1906 - Grays & Tilbury Gazette, and Southend Teleg...

Maureen
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: John915 on Thursday 25 January 18 23:29 GMT (UK)
Good morning,

I think Trishanne and Jim are both right, in an odd way. He could be a ferry crewman or dockside operative.

Ferries were often run by rail companies hence the jacket but worn with a MN style cap.

I have had a look but can't find any images from that era to back up my theory but will keep looking.

John915
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Thursday 25 January 18 23:41 GMT (UK)
Maureen, thankyou for the info. very helpful, have been looking for details on this photographer for quite a while without success.

Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Thursday 25 January 18 23:54 GMT (UK)
Good morning John,   Your comments are appreciated and may not be just a theory!  They have
led me to a possible family in Portsmouth.  On checking the 1901 census for this family a son has
recorded his occupation as dockyard worker, a broad term but could include ferrymen.  He was born in 1870 making him 38-42 using Jim's dates.  However, he does appear younger.

Regards,
Jen.

Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Treetotal on Friday 26 January 18 00:00 GMT (UK)
I think the photos were taken around the same time give or take a year or two. The buttons appear to be securing the jacket lapels as in Pat's photo....maybe this allows the collar to be buttoned up close with a mandarin style collar in cooler weather.
Carol
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Wiggy on Friday 26 January 18 00:18 GMT (UK)
After conference with Jen  a very light makeover of the second photo - (not wonderful dpi for full job - sorry Jen).   Trying new saving tecnique to see if I can get this posting problem sorted out.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Wiggy on Friday 26 January 18 00:19 GMT (UK)
And one saved differently - and with his collar fixed.  ;)

Well those both worked!  :)
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Friday 26 January 18 00:48 GMT (UK)
Thankyou Wiggy, these are beautiful restorations, you have achieved wonderful detail on the dresses too.  I did wonder about that collar!  looks so much better.

Kind regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Friday 26 January 18 01:14 GMT (UK)
Hello Carol,   Thankyou for dating the photos, very helpful.  I did have a family in mind but the youngest daughter was born in 1887 making her 21 in 1908.  The girl on the extreme left looks younger with her hair down and large bow at the back.  Not good at guessing ages, what do you think the ages of the three women would be and is it possible the man on the right is the same as the man in uniform?

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Wiggy on Friday 26 January 18 04:24 GMT (UK)
I am not good at comparisons but I wouldn't say he is the same man.  Might just be that one is smiling and the other not, but . . .  :-\

 You need someone who is better at putting photos beside or superimposed on each other.

The other photo . . not much done to it - only 72dpi scan.  His coat is still rather dirty - sorry about that.   Not bad for 100 years old though.  ;)

Wiggy
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Wiggy on Friday 26 January 18 04:36 GMT (UK)
Same again in different format.  Thanks for letting me practise Jen.  ;)
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Friday 26 January 18 05:53 GMT (UK)
You are welcome Wiggy,  These 2 restores are also excellent thankyou!  Much better definition
                           and contrast he looks very sharp indeed.


Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: McGroger on Friday 26 January 18 07:34 GMT (UK)
Hi, Jen.

Here’s my comparison - for what it’s worth - using Wiggy’s nice sharp restores.

I’ve inserted a third head in the middle, reducing it in size a tiny bit and tilting it ever so slightly so that the ears and eyes have a slight slant to the left like those of the man in uniform; and overall so that the features match as closely as possible for valid comparison purposes.

While the two men are alike, I think I can see that the lad from the group photo seems to have a narrower nose, a longer chin, longer ears and a narrower but higher forehead (if you can imagine what’s under the cap ;)). And I think the man in the uniform has a slightly more v-shaped face. It’s all fairly subtle, though, and others may see it differently.

I’ve also included one of the ladies to show what I think might be a family trait and not a trick of the light when comparing the two men. Both of the people from the group photo have more “open” eyes than the fellow in the uniform, whose eyes appear to be more heavily lidded.

It’s not easy though. People can look  different in different lights, different angles, different expressions, and so on. In comparing faces I try to look below the surface at bone structure, eyes, ears, whether hair is fine or coarse and so forth - things that don’t change in different circumstances. And sometimes the most telling thing can be the overall “look”. And I’m no expert! ;D

In my long-winded way, I agree with Wiggy. Although they are alike, I don’t think it’s the same man.

Cheers,
Peter
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Treetotal on Friday 26 January 18 10:35 GMT (UK)
I have to agree with peter...not the same man.
Carol
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Treetotal on Friday 26 January 18 10:37 GMT (UK)
Hello Carol,   Thankyou for dating the photos, very helpful.  I did have a family in mind but the youngest daughter was born in 1887 making her 21 in 1908.  The girl on the extreme left looks younger with her hair down and large bow at the back.  Not good at guessing ages, what do you think the ages of the three women would be and is it possible the man on the right is the same as the man in uniform?

Regards,
Jen.

I think she could well be 21 yo and I think her hair is up and what you see behind is shadow...Just my opinion.
Carol
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Friday 26 January 18 11:55 GMT (UK)
Hi Peter,  Thanks so much for your in depth analysis of the two photos I do appreciate your time
and expertise in placing the photos side by side.  It is so much easier to recognize the differences in the two men that way.  I can see the differences outweigh the similarities and that it is not the same man.

Another factor that is convincing is the address of the photographer found by Maureen.  The photographer was in Grays, Essex so it is difficult to imagine that someone who lived in Portsmouth would travel about 100 miles to Grays to have a photograph taken especially since there were photographers in Portsmouth as evidenced by the family group photo.

Without a positive identification of the uniform the identity of the man may remain a mystery.
Maybe a search of the census for family members would reveal a likely candidate living in Grays,
Essex. 

Regards,
Jen.



Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Friday 26 January 18 12:03 GMT (UK)
Hi Carol,   Thanks for the comments in your two posts.  Good to know the young girl could be
                21, that will fit with a possible family I have in mind.

All the opinions so far agree the two men are not the same and there is convincing evidence from Peter to support that.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: rossko57 on Wednesday 31 January 18 20:49 GMT (UK)
The cap badge is not so obviously a crown in the enhanced photos.   Perhaps it's worth working on just that detail - it ought to be revealing.

The uniform certainly has a maritime flavour.  A crown, if such it is, would tend to negate stevedore or ferryman.  Harbourmaster / Pilot's office?  Customs cutter crew?
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Wednesday 31 January 18 23:56 GMT (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat Rossko57.   Thankyou for your suggestion re the 'crown'.  On the original
it appears to be a crown (not certain of course) and the emblem is most likely embroidered rather than attached metal.  Maybe one of the restorers would take a closer look at it.

On the original, the top buttons have a crown in the centre, so most likely that includes all buttons.
The distinctive horizontal embroidery on the sleeve cuffs may also give a clue.

Will have a look at the occupations you suggest too, thankyou for those. 

I have been diverted from maritime occupations since the address of the photographer was
revealed as Grays, Essex,  113 Clarence Road is several blocks from the Thames.  I know nothing
about that area but perhaps there were dockyards there circa 1908-12?  Then, I agree with you that it is unlikely dockyards if it is a crown on the cap.   If he was a customs officer would he be
more likely to work on the Isle of Wight or Portsmouth rather than Grays, Essex?

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Treetotal on Thursday 01 February 18 00:09 GMT (UK)
Hi Jen....have you thought of posting it on Armed Forces board....they may be able to help.
Carol
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Thursday 01 February 18 01:00 GMT (UK)
That is a good idea Carol.  I would have to link to the current post I guess - that is beyond
my expertise.  Simple for most but daunting for some.

Regards,
Jen.

Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: rossko57 on Saturday 03 February 18 21:24 GMT (UK)
Thanks for a welcome :)

Grays is right on the river, with a wharf that would have been busy with coastal vessels like colliers circa 1910.
It is on the estuary approach to London, the busiest port in the world at the time.  Quite likely boats based at Greys would meet large ocean going vessels, carrying out pilots and customs officers.

But - look at this Royal Navy junior officer for a very similar style, with the lapel buttons
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-royal-navy-sailor-of-the-late-victorian-or-edwardian-period-in-uniform-50489902.html
(the white cap cover is removable)

The blurry buttons and cap badge in that photo don't seem to match yours, but there is room for doubt.

If they don't match RN, who would use similar pattern tunics?

Customs cap badge most obvious feature is a portcullis grill, although that is topped off by a crown and usually set in a bowl of laurel leaves.

Similar uniforms
http://www.mycetes.co.uk/a/page152.html

UK lighthouses are run by Trinity House, a kind of trust, that does not use a crown badge.  There were lighthouses and lightships at work on the Thames estuary, and supply boats to service them.  One old
lightship was beached at Grays, suggesting it was some kind of home for T.H.  Plus there is a building named T.H in Grays which may once.. etc. (HQ is in London)

But note that Pilots (and pilot cutters) are Trinity House as well.
https://trinityhousehistory.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/trinity-house-pilotage-service-in-the-1890s/
The cap badge is sort of bowl of laurel leaves around an anchor, topped with a lion, which might resemble a crown.
http://www.mycetes.co.uk/a/image456.jpg

I might well be waay off here, but that uniform is neither copper nor postman nor railwayman.  Concievably any kind of shipping or naval operation.
Civilian shipping companies at the time would use elaborate heraldry for cap badges etc., but a crown is something official.    Matching buttons is upmarket, but does not exclude civvy shipping.
Railway companies, always fond of uniforms and fancy buttons, did also operate ferry services, and nautical style uniforms would be used here.  But you can almost always read their initials somewhere, e.g. LSWR

Need to see more of the cap and buttons!!
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Sunday 04 February 18 04:52 GMT (UK)
Hi Rossko57,  Thankyou for your definitive and very helpful comments.  Good to have the info.
on Grays.  The Royal Navy junior officer uniform is a great find and the most promising so far  ;D

Looking at likely families there were 4 and all had maritime backgrounds, Royal Navy, Customs (Isle of Wight, Brighton), Shipwrights (Portsmouth)  Within those families there were 6 contenders
of the right age for the 1908-12 photo.  1911 census revealed a postal worker, sailmaker, carpenter, newsagent, and 2 more promising occupations - 1 serving in Royal Navy and one
which needs interpretation.  He stated on 1911 census that he was a Captain RFRA Late LT 3 K O H.
Do you have any comments on what that occupation could be please?

I agree the uniform cap needs looking at more closely, when enlarged, the bar on the cap appears
to have writing/numbers on it.   I will ask the restorers if someone can enlarge the cap.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: a-l on Sunday 04 February 18 09:13 GMT (UK)
My first thought was Railway  then Naval in some way. Does the trim on the sleeves mean anything ?
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Sunday 04 February 18 09:32 GMT (UK)
That's a good question a-l.     Railway museum says not a railway uniform, ditto for Postal
museum.    Leaning towards maritime uniform of some kind.   Have seen an image of an early
Naval uniform here in Aust. and it has the same distinctive vertical embroidery on the cuffs.
Unfortunately, the cuffs are not visible for comparison in the photo link by rossko57.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: macwil on Sunday 04 February 18 10:10 GMT (UK)
I have been following this thread with interest and have some doubt as to whether the cap badge is a crown. I think it may be a representation of a three masted ship flying a standard  at the prow.
Is there any way we could get a high res scan of just the cap?
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 04 February 18 10:53 GMT (UK)
Quote
He stated on 1911 census that he was a Captain RFRA Late LT 3 K O H.
Do you have any comments on what that occupation could be please?
Can you give a link to the page or tell us who he is.
K.O.H. = King's Own Hussars possibly.
RFRA doesn't make sense to me. TFRA or RRFA would.
Whatever it is the photo isn't this chap as he was Army.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: rossko57 on Sunday 04 February 18 11:54 GMT (UK)
Officer's Cuff detail will vary by rank in Navy (and I suppose similar services), maybe don't expect to find exact matches there.  It is curious that appears to the only designation of rank here.

I'd ruled out Midshipman cos they get white collar tabs.  However, Cadets and RNR or RNVR (reserve) midshipmen just get a bit of coloured braid at the lapel buttonhole - red or blue, which might not show in photos.
Resources
http://uniform-reference.net/insignia/rn/rn_ww1_rnr_rnvr.html
(see midshipmen)
http://uniform-reference.net/insignia/rn/rn_ww1_ranks_enlisted_1.html
(our man does not seem to have lapel or shoulder badges you'd expect from a Petty Officer, but note comment about stewards.  Could be a good fit.)

I'm thinking more Navy than when I first looked, especially if you throw in he might be full-time whatever in shipping and simultaneously part-time RNVR, proudly enough to pose.  The cap badge doesn't look right, but as seen between the original post and later details we ain't getting a good view.

RNR and RNVR records are searchable?
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-naval-volunteer-reserve-service-records-1903-1922/

Of course Sea Cadets also existed and he might be the equivalent of a Scoutmaster!
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Sunday 04 February 18 13:10 GMT (UK)
Hi all, Late here, will comment tomorrow.  In the meantime this is best I can do with a scan of
the cap, not much better, only have basic scanner.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Daisypetal on Sunday 04 February 18 17:04 GMT (UK)

Hi,

I think R.F.R.A. on the 1911 census could be "Royal Field Reserve Artillery".


Regards,
Daisy
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 04 February 18 17:49 GMT (UK)
Royal Field Artillery Reserve makes more sense.
Maybe someone mixed up the letters. Perhaps that's what they meant.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Daisypetal on Sunday 04 February 18 18:04 GMT (UK)

I see what you mean, that's what I first thought  :) , but by Googling I found this,

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/other-aspects-of-order-of-battle/constitution-of-the-military-forces-of-the-crown/

amongst lots of other links referring them and what appear to be regional units of the "Royal Field Reserve Artillery".  :)

Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: rossko57 on Sunday 04 February 18 20:07 GMT (UK)
Cap badge detail sure looks like just a Tudor crown,  no anchors, foliage or frills, i.e. not Navy after 1880

The only official uniform I can find in period with only a crown .... Prison Officer  !?!    Never with the nautical double-breasted tunic though. I wondered about the many prison hulks on the Thames - gone before 1890

Intriguing.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Monday 05 February 18 01:04 GMT (UK)
Thanks for your interest Malcolm,  have posted a higher resolution photo of cap only.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Monday 05 February 18 01:21 GMT (UK)
Thanks for your expertise Jim.   You have eliminated this army man as a contender for the subject
of the photo.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Monday 05 February 18 01:26 GMT (UK)
Hi Daisy,   Thanks for solving my R.F.R.A. question on 1911 census as Royal Field Reserve
                Artillery.  An army man as Jim confirmed, so not a contender for the subject of the
                photo.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Monday 05 February 18 07:58 GMT (UK)
Hi rossko57,   You certainly are tenacious on this one ;D with no stone unturned, thanks so much!
                     
                      Have looked at all your comments and links.  Have followed through with the
                      National Archives Navy records and looked again at 1911 census for the final
                      contender.

                      1911 revealed that he lived in Barford, Wymondham, Norfolk.  Not sure how that
                      connects to Grays Essex where photo was taken?  Occupation was
                      "payments Royal Navy"  In 1901 census he was on Caledonia which Google reveals
                      was a Naval Base in Rosyth, Scotland.

                       NA records show he was appointed in 1896 and his rank was Fleet Paymaster.
                       Maybe the vertical cuff stripes could indicate Assistant Paymaster or Paymaster.

                       In your opinion could the unidentified uniform be a Royal Navy Paymaster's
                       uniform?   Perhaps the cap had a Tudor crown without other embellishment
                       because he was in an administrative role?

                       Could be grasping at straws here. ???

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: John915 on Monday 05 February 18 09:37 GMT (UK)
Good morning,

In answer to your last question, no. RN officers were divided into two branches, executive and civil. All wore the same cuff braid according to rank but executive or deck officers had the curl above top ring. Civil officers had no curl but had coloured bands between rings. White for accountants which included paymasters and secretarys, the highest rank normally for paymaster was captain, 4 rings.

I have searched endless sites but not find those cuff stripes anywhere but I would say not RN. No RN personnel wear that cap badge either as rossko57 said earlier. Pity we can't see the buttons more clearly, RN have a rope edge with fouled anchor in centre.

John915

PS. rossko57s link shows the rank braid for paymasters.

PPS. Curls were added for all branches in 1918 to standardise them.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Monday 05 February 18 10:47 GMT (UK)
Good evening John915,  Thankyou for your comments on my recent question, not the answer I
                                    had hoped for.  Might have to look again for other possible contenders.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: rossko57 on Monday 05 February 18 11:24 GMT (UK)
Golly, the RN Paymaster career looks tempting.
I've seen mention of cadets in this branch, which might go with minimal cuff decoration.
But the badge/buttons appearance are a huge blocker.

Just to add chaos - I have found period Tramway companies often favoured double breasted uniforms, right down to the lapel buttons.  Example
http://www.tramwaybadgesandbuttons.com/page148/page4/styled-80/page150.html

You would expect a tram man to wear a number (maybe even mandatory under the operating licence)  But perhaps this is a new boy, no number issued yet.  Or depot staff were uniformed but not numbered (seems unlikely)
Again the apparent crown badge is a strong counter.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Tuesday 06 February 18 06:55 GMT (UK)
Hello rossko57,  Thanks for your thoughts re tramway and the link.  Agree the cap badge would
                         rule tramway out.

                         The origin of the 2 photos would be 2 grandmothers sending photos from the UK
                         to family in Aust. most likely of grandsons or nephews.  Six males were in that
                         category and have looked at occupations for those 6.  One of those stated in 1901
                         census that he was a ship driller Royal Navy dockyard.  In 1911 he stated he was
                         stoker -  H.M. Dockyard (Admiralty) When asked the question on "relation to
                         head" he answered "crew".  Just a tad confusing, but I imagine he wouldn't wear
                         a uniform for this occupation.

                         There was a remarriage to a widow with family - 2 sons - they are next!

                         Have attempted a scan of a top button on the uniform, the insignia is not too
                         obvious unfortunately.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: a-l on Tuesday 06 February 18 10:33 GMT (UK)
Another suggestion to add to the mix , a lock keeper ?
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Tuesday 06 February 18 10:38 GMT (UK)
Thankyou a-l for your suggestion, would a lock keeper have a similar uniform to the man in
the photograph?   
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: a-l on Tuesday 06 February 18 10:43 GMT (UK)
Thankyou a-l for your suggestion, would a lock keeper have a similar uniform to the man in
the photograph?
I don't know for sure , I was thinking of jobs connected to water.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: rossko57 on Tuesday 06 February 18 12:18 GMT (UK)
Canals and docks were operated by private companies, employees could be uniformed.

I suppose we can't rule out Grandma getting a local photographer to make a copy of a print she had been sent by the lad, and sending that copy to relatives.  Grays location would then relate to Grandma.

That lapel button scan is conceiveably a standard RN "fouled anchor", a little tilted.  Cap badge still looks all wrong for RN, but it'd only take a misplacement of the cap band to throw the outline.

We shouldn't rule out your stoker - he certainly didn't spend all his time shovelling coal, it just means he is engineer's dept. not gunner or deckhand etc.  The uniform would suggest he's risen to petty officer heights.    A stoker would have a propellor patch badge on upper right arm - it just might be there in shadow.  These are stitched in red, won't stand out well in b/w

But the cuffs! the cuffs!  Those are ... singular.   It'd have to mean something weird like attachment to a tech training school (hence "driller").

I'm not helping ... he could be stoker or paymaster or lockie or tram conductor or ...
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Tuesday 06 February 18 13:43 GMT (UK)
Of course you're helping rossko57 ;D   One of your ideas will bear fruit, I'm sure of it :D I just need to work my way through all the candidates keeping your suggestions in mind.

The grandmother connected to the maritime men lived in Portsmouth all her life.

Further research has revealed that there was a Navy establishment in Grays, Essex.

The buttons, on enlargement on screen have a flat edge and a domed centre.  Don't know if that
ties in with Navy buttons.

While the shirt might date the photo to 1908-12, the uniform itself could be earlier.

I thought of sending the photo to the Navy Museum but so far can't locate an email address.
They have a message facility but you can't attach a photo to it.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Daisypetal on Tuesday 06 February 18 16:21 GMT (UK)

Hi,

Although I don't think that I can see the button in question here, it is a very interesting website for people searching buttons :)

http://www.colchestertreasurehunting.co.uk/B/buttons.htm

Daisy
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Tuesday 06 February 18 23:04 GMT (UK)
Thankyou Daisy for link to the buttons site, I agree it is a very interesting website.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: rossko57 on Saturday 10 February 18 01:44 GMT (UK)
For the benefit of anyone interested, see this photo
(from this splendid website http://www.godfreydykes.info/THE%20ROYAL%20NAVY%20WARRANT%20OFFICER%20PART%20ONE.htm (http://www.godfreydykes.info/THE%20ROYAL%20NAVY%20WARRANT%20OFFICER%20PART%20ONE.htm))

The chap on the left is a Warrant Officer, a Carpenter by title.  Of note he has neither buttons nor rings at his cuff, no patch badge on his right arm, and eight buttons on his jacket.   That's a very specific combination that the website's knowledgable author doesn't understand, yet the contemporary text identifies him as Carpenter.   It may be this particular style lasted only a year or two, uniforms were in a state of change.
Note two of these W/Os have the extra buttons at the lapel, albeit "unbuttoned" i.e. nearly hidden beneath the lapel.

The cuffs in the original query photo worried me, but I have found a few photos now of Warrant Officers and Chief Petty Officers of the period where the camera has picked up vertical pleats or stitching at the cuff (also implying the cuff is either a separate piece sewn onto the sleeve, or a deep turn-up - often disguised by rank rings).
I begin to think it's just a freak of the photography highlighting an unimportant bit of tailoring.  Perhaps even residual tailor's chalk? on a brand new uniform.

The cap badge is still a bit dubious, but I think we are only seeing the bottom half with the top half in shadow.  The apparent "crown" is the bottom of the anchor in it's bowl of foliage.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Saturday 10 February 18 07:45 GMT (UK)
Thankyou Rossko57 for the website reference, photo and informative explanation of features
of Royal Navy uniforms.  Yes, the cap insignia is still questionable.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: John915 on Sunday 11 February 18 01:34 GMT (UK)
Good morning,

I have to say i'm impressed with rossko57s tenacity in this. However I have to disagree with some of his views.

The cuffs definately have vertical bullion stripes, in very thin double strips. Blow it right up and you can see it. 

The cap badge is definately a crown, in brass. The blow up posted shows this very well. An anchor would not look as flat across the bottom and would not have the fluer de lis which show clearly. His links show very clearly that the naval cap badges are bullion on a padded backing. They are very stiff and hold the front of the hat upright and not drooping like the OPs photo.

Depending on the era 3 button cuffs had sewn in pleats running down from them which is what I think he has seen.

Lastly, just a little point, the lapels are neither buttoned or unbuttoned in the different examples shown. The V notch in the lapel is merely tucked under the button in some pictures.

Will put up another good link when I get to my laptop tomorrow.

John915
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Sunday 11 February 18 04:20 GMT (UK)
Thankyou John915, I appreciate your interest and your comments. Look forward to the link.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: John915 on Sunday 11 February 18 11:13 GMT (UK)
Good morning,

Took me a while to find this again, but here is the link; http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval.html

It is an extensive site but has loads of photos. I will see if I can do some links to relevant sections.

John915

Added; http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Uniform/Index.html
           http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Uniform/Phot/Index.html
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Sunday 11 February 18 20:52 GMT (UK)
Hello John915,   Thankyou for the link, some good information there.

Re the buttons - you mentioned in reply #41 that RN have a rope edge with fouled anchor in the
centre.  The first of your added links has info. on buttons in indexed item 'Uniform Regulations for
Petty Officers' dated Feb. 1897.  The buttons mentioned there are similar to those on the unidentified uniform.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Sunday 11 February 18 21:13 GMT (UK)
Here is an enlargement of the cuff detail, it looks singular to me.

Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: rossko57 on Monday 12 February 18 21:47 GMT (UK)
Sure looks like a double row of stitching, not chalk or simple tailoring.  Stitching is like a representation of slashes with bound edges, like giant buttonholes.  Almost a Tudor throwback.
Or maybe just braid with a coloured centre trace.

Damned odd - not seen anything like those.

We can see the cuffs are cuffs i.e. folded back and stitched.  Doesn't help!
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Monday 12 February 18 22:18 GMT (UK)
It could be a braid Rossko,  the stripe on the right appears to be fraying slightly at the cuff
where it meets the shirt.  If it is a sewn stripe - Navy regulations most likely determined the
width of the stripe.   In the link from John915 it mentions that often Navy men bought sewing machines and sewed their own uniforms, also making extra money sewing uniforms for others.
The stitch used for the stripe would be satin stitch (used for buttonholes).  A quarter inch stripe
would probably require 2 rows close together.  The stripes on the cuff in this photo are very straight
and are most likely sewn on a commercial machine by an experienced seamstress.

The stripe on the right has pulled the edge of the cuff down at the top suggesting it was added
to the uniform at a later date probably when that particular rank was achieved.  The stripes are
on top of the sewing on the cuff.

If it is two rows of stitching close together I still think it represents a single stripe made to a
regulation width.

Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: rossko57 on Tuesday 13 February 18 13:15 GMT (UK)
Arr .. but .. there are no RN regulations permitting vertical braid at the cuffs.  (I would guess we are looking at 1897-1910 regs here).  The regs call the usual rings "lace", gold braid to non-tailors like me.  The key thing is every last man in the maritime world knew these were to be applied as rings around the sleeve.  To be clear, those are not RN rank indicators.
Potentially some local significance ("best in class", "most senior dockyard chippy") but that would be a real stretch against regulations.
Setting that weirdness aside for a mo ...

----

The style of jacket is entirely consistent with RN, and coastguard etc.  And of course with any number of nautical civilian orgs and companies who took RN as their fashion leader.  And any amount of ex-RN men who went to a civvy job and used their old togs with rank stripped and buttons (probably) changed.

if he were RN, we can say that the eight-button layout is consistent only with an officer.  That would include Warrant Officer ranks, but not petty officers.  Officers of course get rings, or collar tabs for midshipmen/cadets.  So, to the exception ...

I've seen in 1897 regs that two of the then three types of W/O (Boatswain and Gunner) are given a ring at the cuff.  Significantly, the Carpenter is not included there.  Interpretation is that he doesn't get a ring, and we seem to have photo proof of that in the posed photo of the three pipe-smoking W/O.

So our photo man could be a Carpenter by his buttons-and-no-ring combination.  Carpenter, whose job is essentially caring for the fabric of the ship, would be a likely career path for a dockyard man.
But only if his buttons and cap badge are RN of course.   I'm unconvinced by the crown-only reading of that, but it's a bigger stretch still to make it into the W/Os expected anchor with oak leaves and crown topper.

More but - a W/O comes up from the lower ratings, via petty officer, and would be a man of 15-20 years experience.  Our fellow looks too young?

We must remember that Navy family links add confusion when we look at old census records; words like carpenter, shipwright, blacksmith we recognise as skills/trades for civilians or sailors/dockyard types. But for RN they are also specific ranks.  An RN Carpenter in the ironclad navy may not have much history of woodworking; a woodworking sailor may hold some other rank; a dockyard chippy may be a civilian or not.  What would these guys write on various forms?  "depends"

It'd be nice to make this man into one of the navy family, but we're not there yet.  Pinning the cap badge down would be a huge step.

----

I'm confident now this photo is NOT the eventual Fleet Paymaster.  To get to those lofty heights, he would have to sign up as Cadet or Assistant Clerk, embryo officers with eight buttons indeed but with collar tabs or cuff ring; nor is the photo any rank inbetween.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Wednesday 14 February 18 01:14 GMT (UK)
Thanks Rossko57 for the in depth analysis of RN uniforms, I will comment in a later post.

For the present, setting aside the RN uniform/non RN uniform debate let's look at the photograph
from the family historian point of view.

It is located in a postcard album in chronological order from early 1900's to approx. 1925.
The owner of this album was the daughter of a couple who emigrated from Hampshire UK to
Australia.  The album contains multiple postcards, greeting cards and photographs from her
grandparents who remained in Hampshire.  The photograph of the uniformed man is on the same
page as the group photo posted on reply #3.  The reverse of both these postcards is divided
signifying a date post 1902.  I note the similar features of the man in uniform to the man on the
right in the group photo indicating a possible relationship, brother or cousin perhaps.

The dating experts on this forum have given a date for the uniform photo of 1908-12 based on the
style of collar which was worn during that time frame.  The collars in the group photo differ from
this collar, perhaps this photo could be slightly earlier.

Census records are a sound basis for further research so let's look at those for possible contenders for the subject of the uniform photo.  There are 4 families.  The head of each of these families has
maritime connections, a Writer HM Dockyard, 2 x Shipwrights HM Dockyard and a Fleet Engineer
Royal Navy.   There are 7 sons born in the correct time frame who could be the
subject of the uniform photo.

The census records a Postal Worker, an Army serviceman, a house framer, a Dockyard worker
(ship driller), a Dockyard worker (sailmaker), a carpenter and a Paymaster RN. 

The last census for the house framer was 1881 indicating either emigration or death.
He died in 1886 age 19.
 

We can rule out the Postal Worker as the Postal Museum has confirmed it is not a Postal uniform
and the Army serviceman.

The carpenter emigrated to Canada in 1906  (Ancestry emigration records and Canada census)
Last UK census for him was 1901.  His date of emigration predates the photo.

Two dockyard workers and a Paymaster remain for consideration.  The uniformed man is
one of these three men.  There is an employment record at the Royal Dockyard for the sailmaker,
born 1878, worked at the Dockyard from 1899-1938.  There is no RN record for him at National Archives.  The ship driller born 1870 has no online record at the Royal Dockyard but has a RN
record at NA.  A short stint in the RN, May - Oct. 1889. 

The Paymaster born 1878 joined the Navy in 1896 as Assistant Clerk.  By 1903 he was Assistant
Paymaster and by 1908 Paymaster at Cape of Good Hope Dockyard where he remained until 1911.
He is recorded in 1911 census at Portsmouth.  In 1914 he was serving in WW1, 1916 was Fleet
Paymaster and by the end of that year Paymaster Commander.

Turning attention to the Dockyard, I made an enquiry at the Dockyard at Portsmouth to determine
if dockyard workers wore uniforms.  I am waiting for a response to that query.

The RN Museum at Portsmouth and the Maritime Museum at Greenwich also have a copy of the
photo for consideration and will respond in due course. 

If I am correct in identifying the family group, the parents of this group are first cousins.
They are also both first cousins to the Paymaster's mother.  Setting the RN uniform debate aside
this fact also increases the likelihood of the uniformed man being a cousin, the likeness to the
man on the right in the group is striking.  The dating experts on this forum have given the group a date of 1908-12.  Based on this date it could be reasonable to suggest that this photo was taken after the emigration of the carpenter and that the two men recorded are the ship driller and the
sailmaker. 

Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: rossko57 on Wednesday 14 February 18 03:03 GMT (UK)
We should also give some consideration, Canada had a navy too.  In fact the same imperial navy until 1910, then a short lived Naval Service of Canada, before RCN proper.  And of course dockyards with an appetite for already skilled men. (providing repair yard capability for RN on both coasts)
Is this a possible post-emigration career?
So far as I can make out, uniform would be standard RN.  Fiddling with regulation uniform might be a bit more likely "out thar".

A photo to home may then have been copied in UK before onward transmission to Oz.  (Leaving the Grays mystery)

----

I'm looking into the possibility of being a reservist while in fulltime dockyard employ.  Seems like something they might prohibit - when you need the reserve, you want full dockyard crew as well.
Reserve officer insignia are usually obvious, wavy rings or different colour collar tabs - but we seem to have a possible officer type with no rings to make wavy.  How would you mark that out I wonder.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Wednesday 14 February 18 03:20 GMT (UK)
Yes Rossko, I have considered this as a post-emigration career for the carpenter.  Did some
searching online for Canadian Navy uniforms but the cap insignia appeared to be similar to RN.
Needs more research.


Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: rossko57 on Wednesday 14 February 18 12:51 GMT (UK)
Yup, identical insignia, ratings got HMCS on their hatbands but I do not think officers got 'CANADA' on their shoulders until the 1920s

Any of these guys could have been reservists and left a paper trail there, but photo makes no more sense as reservist than as regular navy.  Just offering an option for an essentially civilian dock worker to pose in uniform.
Photo makes no sense as civilian crew either, those damnable cuffs are out of place!

'little' background (270 pages!), a thesis around social history of edwardian Portsmouth Royal Dockyard workers
https://researchportal.port.ac.uk/portal/files/5795106/Mel_Bassett_108964_Doctoral_Thesis_Final_Submission.pdf
Tidbit found : seems that in 1906 at least, Admiralty barred established dockyard workers from volunteering for reserves.  That indicates enough had done so already to cause worry, although many would be militia rather than naval.  Boer war period.

340 pages on dockyard workforce
https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/361129/1/87081318.pdf
including a sailmaker section
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Wednesday 14 February 18 22:08 GMT (UK)
    Thanks for the links Rossko,    agree, a bit of light reading ;D  interesting subject though.

Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Thursday 15 February 18 07:15 GMT (UK)
  Have followed through with some research on the carpenter who emigrated to Canada in 1906.
  - National Archives of Canada have his attestation papers for Canadian Overseas Expeditionary
  Force, 181st. Overseas Battalion.  In those documents he was asked  'Have you ever served
  in any Military Forces"   Answer was "yes, Garrison Artillery".  Would someone please explain
  what this was please?

Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: John915 on Thursday 15 February 18 09:16 GMT (UK)
Good morning,

Garrison artillery manned the big guns, usually mounted in the forts around Britain and the colonies. So places like Plymouth, Portsmouth, Chatham, Sydney harbour where the protective cover against the French, Spanish etc was situated to defend our dockyards.

They were also mobile but not in the same way as Horse or Field artillery. They needed huge teams of horses or trucks to move them around. When you see footage of very big guns firing in WW1 that's usually Garrison artillery. Can't do a link but google "Garrison artillery, western front, ww1".

John915
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Thursday 15 February 18 11:06 GMT (UK)
Thankyou John,   Would the Admiralty permit dockyard workers to be part of this Garrison?

Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: John915 on Thursday 15 February 18 12:01 GMT (UK)
Good morning,

The dockyard workers would have been civilian employees. However it is not beyond the possibility that some also joined the local militia.

There were militia artillery units so anything is possible, in fact I know that the Palmerston forts around Portsmouth were partially manned by militia at one time.

John915
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Thursday 15 February 18 12:34 GMT (UK)
Thankyou John,  I was curious as to where the carpenter served in the Garrison Artillery.
                         He was a carpenter at HM Dockyards Portsmouth before he emigrated to
                         Canada in 1906.

Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: rossko57 on Thursday 15 February 18 13:05 GMT (UK)
Detail here on the many Portsmouth forts and units who manned them
https://www.victorianforts.co.uk/rga.htm

Sorting out which were regular/volunteer units looks tricky.
With the navy connections, be aware of Marine artillery (RMA) units existence too.

EDIT - this looks a likely militia unit for dockyard men
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Wessex_Artillery
2nd Hampshire (2nd Hants) Artillery Volunteers (AV)
AKA
1st Volunteer (Hampshire) Brigade, Southern Division, Royal Artillery (SDRA)


Not a gunner or marine uniform in the photo, mind!  This carpenter is an interesting chap.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Friday 16 February 18 07:12 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the links Rossko,  very interesting reading, good historical background.  Yes the
carpenter is a an interesting chap but from the records of the Canadian NA it seems he was an army
man during WW1 with previous experience in the Garrison Artillery.  Probably not our man in the
photo.

Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Saturday 17 February 18 12:59 GMT (UK)
While reading the great links posted by Rossko57 and John915 on RN uniforms I came across
a curious term 'fore and aft'.  Could this refer to the creases in the trousers?  I note the subject
of the photo has sharp creases in the front of the trousers.  Is this a significant feature of a
particular uniform?

Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: John915 on Saturday 17 February 18 13:15 GMT (UK)
Good afternoon,

Yes, "fore and aft" refers to the creases in the trousers on no 1 and 3 dress. Worn by CPOs, WOs and officers.

Ratings, PO and down wore the bell bottoms which had 7 horizontal creases across each leg. I remember watching my uncle ironing them in when it was time to report back to ship after leave.

John915
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: rossko57 on Saturday 17 February 18 15:16 GMT (UK)
Great photos here of cadets at 'private' maritime colleges.  Some would go on to careers in merchant shipping, some to the Navy.   Apparently standard practice to make all lads sign up to RN Reserve.
http://www.pandosnco.co.uk/cadets.html

Doesn't help a great deal here, but notable in the older c.1900 photos are the cadet uniforms - very navy of course, but some details differ from official "Cadet RN".
Cap badges similar to RN, not identical.
TS Worcester lads in particular have no collar insignia that you'd find on RN (see other colleges)
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Sunday 18 February 18 05:49 GMT (UK)
Thankyou John915,   It must have been tricky getting all those creases straight on the bell
bottom trousers!

Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Sunday 18 February 18 22:00 GMT (UK)
Rossko57,  Thanks for the link and info. on Cadet uniforms.

At my request, Wiggy has kindly refined the image of the cap making the insignia clearer.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 19 February 18 03:18 GMT (UK)
Well . . . .  not much clearer to be honest.   ::) ::)
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Monday 19 February 18 03:36 GMT (UK)
Well Wiggy, To me it is clearer ;D  Might even work out what it is.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Monday 19 February 18 11:06 GMT (UK)
Have received a response from the Curator of the Royal Navy Museum in Portsmouth regarding
the uniform in the photograph.  "It is not Royal Navy.  The absence of the fouled anchor on the
cap, and the cuff design, although distinctive, represents another organization...... HM Government
does have official maritime services which count as merchant marine, such as HM Customs and
Excise and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary......It does not match Trinity House Pilots, the Coastguard or
the Port of London Authority.....It does not match any of the Greenwich Hospital School uniforms
which I have seen in photographs...... The training ships, such as HMS Worcester at Greenhithe,
had their own forms of uniform.......Admiralty clerks had a uniform based on the Midshipmen's
uniform but I have not traced a suitable image for it"

Plenty of scope for research there.


Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 19 February 18 20:13 GMT (UK)
Narrowing the search then, Jen, if nothing positive! 
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Tuesday 20 February 18 07:45 GMT (UK)
Yes, Wiggy, a few eliminations there - narrows the field quite nicely.

And another to eliminate:-

The Director of the Royal Dockyards has responded that it is not a Dockyard uniform.

Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Wednesday 21 February 18 08:19 GMT (UK)
Hello all,   On a suggestion of Macwil I have attempted to achieve a clearer image using my
                camera to photograph the cap badge on the original photo.  Not sure it appears
                much clearer but on the camera viewfinder it is quite clear in closeup.

               I think what we are seeing here is an image similar to the one on Kellybadge.co.uk
               (item F2T 399).  The top section is sails and bows of ships and a ship hull beneath.
               A knowledgeable researcher informs me it is called a Naval Crown.  The National
               Maritime Museum online collections have some pictorial representations of this Naval
               Crown.  Item 2001 indicates that it was a Royal Naval uniform pattern in 1898.

               Buttons.  These were more difficult to photograph, but they have a smooth rim with
               raised centre featuring a raised insignia.

               With the RN Museum reply in mind would anyone comment on the possible
               organizations this cap badge may represent?

Thanks,
Regards,
Jen.
               
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: John915 on Thursday 22 February 18 14:08 GMT (UK)
Good afternoon,

On the question of the cap badge, rossko57 was fairly certain that it is a tudor crown. That was always my first impression also and in brass not embroidered.

It is far too low on the cap to have anything below it, the chinstrap is only 38 wide so not enough space for anything behind it.

If it is by chance a "naval crown" that rules out RN as they do not use it. They are "Royal" so have either a tudor crown or st edwards crown depending on the monarch.

MN do use the naval crown on their cap badge but over an anchor(no fouling). So that brings us to some civilian maritime organisation, but which. I still prefer some ferry company or similar, possibly on the thames.

John915
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Thursday 22 February 18 22:58 GMT (UK)
Hello John 915,  Thanks for your reply.  At the risk of causing irritation at my ignorance re
                         the composition of a Tudor Crown as opposed to a Naval Crown would you
                         define the difference please?

                         The Maritime Museum collections have examples of a crown used by the RN
                          both metal and embroidered.  These have sails & prows of ships at the top
                          mounted on a band.  The date referred to was 1898.

                         Have looked at the cap badge again in close up and this is possibly what is
                         in the photo but there is a very narrow section under it which appears to be
                         curved downwards.

                         I did have the impression that Rossko57 was non-committal on what the cap
                         badge was. :D  Think he may have retired from this thread.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: macwil on Thursday 22 February 18 23:44 GMT (UK)
This Royal Fleet Auxiliary cap badge is the nearest likeness I can find.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Royal-Fleet-Auxiliary-military-badge-1205/222844274712?hash=item33e28dc818:g:GYoAAOSw3v5Ym9KF

However, their uniforms appear to use Navy type insignia on the cuffs.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Friday 23 February 18 00:40 GMT (UK)
Thanks Malcolm, that looks very close to the outline on the cap, a good find.  ;D
                         The second curved bar at the bottom could be what I am seeing in the photo.

                         Yes, the cuffs are a conundrum.  There are only 3 possible family members
                         to fit the photo, 2 at Portsmouth Dockyard and 1 Royal Navy.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: John915 on Friday 23 February 18 00:47 GMT (UK)
Good evening,

I can't do any links at the moment Jen so all I can suggest is mr g---------- . Have a look at each of the crowns, naval, tudor and st edwards. The 2nd  detail from each side on the tudor and st edwards crowns are fluer de lis. On the naval crown they are sails, a large square. This not what I see on your picture, I see fluer de lis.

When I say that RN do not use the naval crown I am talking cap badges. They do use it on other applications such as naval heraldry and on the top of a ships jack staff.

When I get to my laptop I will put up some pictures for you.

John915
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Friday 23 February 18 01:17 GMT (UK)
Thankyou John, that is most helpful.  In the meantime I will consult with Mr.G.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: John915 on Friday 23 February 18 16:17 GMT (UK)
Good afternoon,

On my laptop at last so here are some comparison photo's.

John915
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: John915 on Friday 23 February 18 16:21 GMT (UK)
Back again,

Now one to show what I see. The colour and apparent shine tell me it is brass and very open in the centre. ie, it doesn't have the material inside showing quite so much as my examples. Excuse the wavy lines, not easy with the mouse, keeps running around  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

John915
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Saturday 24 February 18 12:15 GMT (UK)
Hello John915, Thanks so much for the comparison photos and especially your own representation
                       of what you see on the cap.  It is clear now that it is a Tudor Crown.  Online info.
                       indicates that this crown was in use from 1901-1952. 

                      Your time and expertise is much appreciated. ;D

Regards,
Jen.
                         
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: John915 on Monday 26 February 18 17:03 GMT (UK)
Good afternoon,

I emailed one of the links given and have now received a reply. A copy is attached so hope it doesn't come out too small to read.

John915

Attachment now removed
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Monday 26 February 18 21:58 GMT (UK)
Thanks John915 for posting the email.  I will comment when I have looked more closely at its
content.   


Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Tuesday 27 February 18 10:53 GMT (UK)
Hello John,   Have read the email from your last post and have some comments re the
                   first paragraph.   You commented in post#41 re the division of 19th century RN
                   officers into the Military Branch consisting of Executive Officers and the Civil Branch
                   which comprised the surgeons, paymasters and instructors.  I wonder if the
                   knowledgeable writer of the email appreciates that division.  Assistant Clerks, Clerks
                   and paymasters were not granted military titles of rank until 1918 nor did they wear
                   the executive curl.  In 1918 they received the oak leaves on the peaked cap that
                   had formerly been the prerogative of the military branch.  As non-Executive Officers
                   they lived in the gunroom with the Gunner and the Boatswain not the wardroom when
                   on board ship.  They wore the 'fore and aft' dress that is what we think of as
                   Officers dress.  The Assistant Clerk's uniform consisted of 8 gilt buttons placed
                   by 2's on the breast of the coat.  Until 1891 the coat was single breasted with a
                   different arrangement of buttons.

               

                   The first para comments " in addition to the cap badge being wrong, the gold buttons
                   in that period would indicate a chief petty officer with badges on the collar and which
                   you would expect to be worn by an older man"   This comment needs amendment,
                   see below:-

                   The 1890 Royal Navy Regulations (see P. Benyon) state that Chief Petty Officers will
                   not wear badges to indicate their rating, which is denoted by their wearing gilt
                   buttons.  Buttons: the crown and anchor buttons of the same pattern as worn by
                   officers except that the crown and anchor is surrounded by a plain rim.
                   The crown is the emblem of Authority, is common with all Petty Officers and
                   Instructors badges and the Police badges.

                   I received a reply from the Maritime Museum Greenwich and the Curator commented
                   thus  "Photos of Royal Hospital School Greenwich are very scarce but I did note
                   in some of the photos that the Masters (Instructors) did wear
                   a cap badge like the one in your picture but the young man in the photo seems
                   younger than an instructor"   The key point here is that Instructors were from the
                   Civil Branch of RN and wore only a crown on the cap.

                   Will comment on the cuffs in a later post.

Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Wednesday 28 February 18 08:58 GMT (UK)
Arr .. but .. there are no RN regulations permitting vertical braid at the cuffs.  (I would guess we are looking at 1897-1910 regs here).  The regs call the usual rings "lace", gold braid to non-tailors like me.  The key thing is every last man in the maritime world knew these were to be applied as rings around the sleeve.]

The vertical embroidery on the distinctive cuffs in the photo has been the subject of much
discussion on this thread.  The comment above dismisses the idea that the uniform in the photo
could be RN because "there are no RN regulations permitting vertical braid at the cuffs"

There are exceptions and they are Royal Navy - RN Warrant Officers who have vertical embroidery
on the cuffs of their uniforms surmounted by 3 buttons at the top of the cuff.  This vertical
embroidery is described in RN regulations as 'buttonholes of Twist below the buttons on the cuff"
(see Godfrey Dykes RN Warrant officers at Dartmouth".  This embellishment was not abolished until
1918. 

I am open minded then about the embroidery on the cuffs and what significance it may have.
--



----
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Wednesday 28 February 18 09:55 GMT (UK)
-Quote by Rosko57

"I'm confident now this photo is NOT the eventual Fleet Paymaster.  To get to those lofty heights, he would have to sign up as Cadet or Assistant Clerk, embryo officers with eight buttons indeed but with collar tabs or cuff ring; nor is the photo any rank in between."
[/quote]




Now that I have looked into the composition of Paymaster's uniforms more thoroughly I have a
comment on the above quote

Yes, an eventual Paymaster did sign up at the Assistant Clerk level via a competitive examination
held half yearly at Greenwich.  The successful candidate was then appointed as an Assistant Clerk
at a shore based establishment (e.g. Victory, the Portsmouth Accounting base) or a sea going ship
where he learned his craft "on the job".  After 1 year's service he was considered eligible to take
the exam for the rating of Clerk and after 3 year's service was eligible for examination for the rating
of assistant paymaster.  Assistant Clerk and Clerk were the equivalent of Naval Cadet and Midshipman. 


Of the many photos I have looked at depicting Paymaster uniforms not one had collar tabs.
Assistant Clerks and Clerks had no rings until they achieved Assistant Paymaster (under 4 years)
when they wore 1 stripe, the equivalent of Sub-Lieutenant.  So looking at our photo we would not
expect to see either of those things.  The jacket is correct, 'fore & aft' dress with 8 gilt buttons
in 2's the buttons having a raised centre with a smooth rim.

It is possible that the uniform in the photo depicts a Navel Cadet on the bottom rung of the ladder
of promotion to Paymaster.  I am open minded as to the possibilities.  With the intricate nature
of RN regulations and the many changes to those regulations who can say with any conviction what
RN uniforms were worn in the Victorian era.

There is a family member who fits the profile of the career of Paymaster.  I have considered
all the possibilities, examined all family members and their careers and only one fits the profile.
The young man in the photo bears a good resemblance to family in other photos I have and also
a good resemblance to his parents' photos.

I have carefully considered all the opinions of posters to this thread, opinions I respect. Thankyou
all for your continued interest and assistance.

Regards,
Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: jtbroderick on Wednesday 28 February 18 18:21 GMT (UK)

Now that I have looked into the composition of Paymaster's uniforms more thoroughly I have a
comment on the above quote

Yes, an eventual Paymaster did sign up at the Assistant Clerk level via a competitive examination
held half yearly at Greenwich.  The successful candidate was then appointed as an Assistant Clerk
at a shore based establishment (e.g. Victory, the Portsmouth Accounting base) or a sea going ship
where he learned his craft "on the job".  After 1 year's service he was considered eligible to take
the exam for the rating of Clerk and after 3 year's service was eligible for examination for the rating
of assistant paymaster.  Assistant Clerk and Clerk were the equivalent of Naval Cadet and Midshipman. 


Hello, I wrote the email referred to in post #94, after John915 asked if I would take a look.

The uniforms of Royal Navy Clerks and Assistant Clerks are well documented. As subordinate officers, like midshipmen and cadets, they wore the same crown, anchor and laurel wreath cap badge as commissioned and warrant officers, though of slightly reduced size. The 1891 officer's uniform regulations, which were in effect with little change through WW1, can be seen here:

https://archive.org/details/royal_navy_uniform_regulation_1891

All officers of the paymaster branch wore white distinction cloth around the cuff beginning in Dec. 1863:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015025957526;view=1up;seq=404

Clerks and Assistant Clerks, who did not have gold rank stripes, wore a quarter-inch line of white around the cuff:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015025957526;view=1up;seq=749

Illustrated in the uniform regulations of 1879:
https://books.google.com/books?id=fV0BAAAAQAAJ&pg=PT49#v=onepage&q&f=false

And 1891:
https://archive.org/stream/royal_navy_uniform_regulation_1891#page/n63/mode/2up

Though Clerks and Assistant Clerks were re-titled Paymaster Midshipmen and Paymaster Cadets in 1918, and Midshipmen (S) and Cadets (S) in 1944, their narrow white cuff stripe remained until 1955.

Quote
Of the many photos I have looked at depicting Paymaster uniforms not one had collar tabs.
Assistant Clerks and Clerks had no rings until they achieved Assistant Paymaster (under 4 years)
when they wore 1 stripe, the equivalent of Sub-Lieutenant.  So looking at our photo we would not
expect to see either of those things.  The jacket is correct, 'fore & aft' dress with 8 gilt buttons
in 2's the buttons having a raised centre with a smooth rim.

I don't think this would apply to the period of the photo, but eight buttons "in twos" refers to the vertical spacing on the single-breasted full dress or undress tailcoat, or on the double-breasted frock coat, before 1891. So the buttons of the paymaster branch would be grouped so:

O
O

O
O

O
O

O
O



Surgeons were in three groups of three and engineers in two groups of four.

Quote
It is possible that the uniform in the photo depicts a Navel Cadet on the bottom rung of the ladder
of promotion to Paymaster.  I am open minded as to the possibilities.  With the intricate nature
of RN regulations and the many changes to those regulations who can say with any conviction what RN uniforms were worn in the Victorian era.

There is plenty of photographic evidence that shows that uniforms were largely worn in accordance with regulations. The crown in the uniform photo appears to be the Edwardian "Tudor" type, with rounded top, rather than the Victorian crown which generally had a flatter top, depressed in the center.

As for RN officers wearing just a crown as a cap badge, that was the case in an earlier period, 1846 to 1856. The plain crown was worn in conjunction with gold lace around the cap band. In 1856 the gold band was deleted and the badge was changed to the crown, anchor and laurel still worn, in evolved design, to this day. To compare (under Memoranda):

1846:
"[...]officers may wear in undress, in lieu of the round hat, a blue cloth cap, with a gold lace band of the width of the lace on their dress coats, and a gold crown, according to pattern, and of the same size in all ranks, in front above the band; Officers who have no lace on their coats, to
have a band of gold lace, one inch wide, round their caps."
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015025976476;view=1up;seq=311
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/72781.html

1856: "The Military Branch to be distinguished by the embroidery on the peak, which is to be of oak leaves, and a device placed in front of the cap, consisting of a crown embroidered in gold
and silver and a silver anchor, surrounded by gold laurel wreaths.

"The Civil Branches by plain embroidery and the same device embroidered in gold."
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015025957526;view=1up;seq=749

Justin
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Wednesday 28 February 18 21:06 GMT (UK)
Ah. yes the email, but that has been removed so it can no longer be referenced by readers of this thread.

Thankyou for your very detailed notes on RN uniform regulations in the Victorian era.
These predate the posted photo which you have noted, but provide good historical background.

Regarding the crown, the interpretation is in the eye of the observer.  Is it a Tudor crown introduced after 1901? That would depend on when the photo was taken - pre 1901 or post 1901,
the image is indistinct.  It could conceivably be the Naval crown in use in the late 1890's, it has
a similar profile at the base which is actually the only section that can be seen in the image.



Jen.
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Wednesday 28 February 18 23:36 GMT (UK)
I have retired this thread, it has morphed into a lengthy debate on RN uniforms, not my original
intention when I posted nearly 5 weeks ago.  The RC Armed Forces Board is a more appropriate
forum for the extended posts and links that have been placed recently on this thread.

The goal was to identify the subject in the photo posted and with the help of many posters I have eliminated all possible contenders except one, the future Paymaster Commander.


Uniform enthusiasts, please feel free to chat amongst yourselves ;D ;D
Title: Re: Unidentified uniform or costume - help please photographer was S. Edwin
Post by: aus*jen on Friday 02 March 18 06:43 GMT (UK)
According to an obituary for the uniformed man found today he served on HMY Victoria and Albert,
perhaps this uniform relates to that service.  This is a comment only, not the start of another
lengthy uniform debate.