RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Les de B on Saturday 27 January 18 11:18 GMT (UK)
-
Just wondering if any one is able to translate this account of a pistol duel from 1796 involving my ancestor Stephen WATTS. It happened on Jersey Island, but is recorded in French.
I have read English newspaper accounts of the duel, but don't know what this document is about. The person who advised me of it says there are 2 parts to it, he thought the first was the description, and the second part was a Court outcome?
Thanks
Les
-
1st image : the Royal Attorney General who's been informed that Jean DOLBEL, (escuier= écuyer =horseman, esquire) participated in the encounter that took place yesterday evening , in which Stephen Watts , horseman (esquire) , was dangerously hurt. He (the attorney ) commands that Jean Dolbel should be presented in court and forbids anyone (officers...) , and any vessel, boat... helping him to escape the Isle .
-
2d image :
31 of october 1796George Sanderson , gent, lieutenant (enseigne= enseigne de vaisseau) and surgeon in the Regiment Fencible and Charles Staples, esquire, captain in the said regiment were brought in court by Aaron Deveulle supreme commander (connétable)of the parish of St Clement under the accusation of having participated in the wounds that Stephen Watts received in a duel and put his life in danger.
After having heard the report of Jean Allez , one of the surgeons who cannot say if Stephen Watts is out of danger , the court have sent Anderson and Charles Staples in prison.
-
3d image George Sanderson and Charles Staples having been put in prison..... th wounds that Stephen Watts received on the 30 th .
Jean Allez, surgeon says that Stephen Watts is in a state that allows to think he could get better.
Anderson and Staples went out of jail but had to present before court when asked to.
-
4 th image :
8 november 1796
penalty :250 sterling pound each.
I can't say much more, would be easier if I could read page or number 430
Novelistic ancestors !
-
Thanks very much for the translations - much appreciated.
Regarding Page 430, are you saying you can't translate it, or can't read it i.e. poor photo quality/bad handwriting?
Les
-
4 th image is coming after the 3d, no pages between them (I read them again and understand that : the word "institué" bottom right the 3d image means you will find it first word on the next page (which we can see on 4th image), up left corner.
My difficulty is to understand perfectly the legal language of that time; though I am French, I am no lawyer, that's why I hesitate between 2 meanings
1. they had to pay a fine , 250 sterling pounds each,for having participated in the duel
or
2.they had to pay 250 sterling pounds to get out of jail before a trial took place
-
That's okay Roger - I appreciate your effort, and at least I have some understanding of this document now, whereas I didn't before ;)
Les
-
Hello,
If your are looking for help regarding old french documents.
I can do it.
Christophe.
-
Hello,
If your are looking for help regarding old french documents.
I can do it.
Christophe - thank you very much for your kind offer. Are you able to re-translate the documents just to re-confirm Joger's original translation as there was a little trouble with some of the words.
Les
-
My difficulty is to understand perfectly the legal language of that time; though I am French, I am no lawyer, that's why I hesitate between 2 meanings
Back around the 1980's there was a lady in Sydney who underwent hypnotic regression by psychologist Peter Ramster.
When regressed she slipped back into colloquial French of the 1760's. This was verified when she with 3 other ladies who remembered past lives were taken to Europe and in 3 of the cases their old homes were found and definitely identified. This lady had no knowledge of French outside of the hypnotic regression.
The stories were all in a televised documentay in the 1980's and most are now on youtube. The French case can be watched here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOVpFznmoTs - from about 1.25 minutes into the youtube.
I wonder therefore whether someone could be regressed in France and found to have also lived when that French was spoken and could be understood.
However do watch this youtube and then go to part 9 because the story of Gwen who remembered living as Rose Duncan two hundred years ago in Somerset has all the evidence that this is happened - e.g. the slab of stone she drew under hypnosis in Sydney when compared with the stone they later found in an old cottage in Somerset.
-
Malcom - As my old records are from Jersey Island, their French languauge may be a little different. I did read that even some French from Normandy is different to the rest of France.
I will have a look at the Youtube link when time permits.
Thanks
Les
-
Malcom - As my old records are from Jersey Island, their French languauge may be a little different. I did read that even some French from Normandy is different to the rest of France.
I will have a look at the Youtube link when time permits.
Thanks
Les
Bien, and when you do watch that youtube you will find that the lady when regressed remembered being Emilie de Chauville who lived in Normandy around the 1760's. The youtube continues from Part 2 to Part 3 with the same regression and part 3 has the investigation team and the lady going to a village near Saint Michel.
My French Teachers were from Jersey and I think Guernsey, - back in High School from 1944 to 1949 and I kept in touch with a pen friend Jacques from 1947 to his passing about 3 years ago now. Jacques was from Roanne, Loire.
But my first wife of more than 30 years, now deceased, had French as her first language, even though she was born and raised in Smyrne, Turquie. So I had to speak French with my in-laws, although her Dad, Henri, could speak English, German, Greek, Italian as well as Turkish.
Consequently I find the Levantine accent much easier to understand. Only trouble at home was that quite often even in mid-sentence they would switch into Greek, which I can more or less understand now, but not then.
I think that there were three main French languages - Langue D'Oc, Langue De Si, and in the north Langue D'Oil.
Then there is Breton. Now that I can understand a little because it is very close to Cymraeg which is still spoken in Wales, and this was the original Prydaeg Language - British. It is completely different to French and English yet does have a few words and grammar which have found their way into English - e.g. Y Dw for 'I Do' and the use of a present continuous tense, e.g. 'I am Playing' rather than 'I Play'.
All the best, Malcolm
-
Les,
I have just realised that we both have 'Rootschat Aristocrat' under our Names. Does that mean that our heads may not be safe should we venture again into France?
Malcolm
-
There are 2 parts, with 2 dates. The first "Prise de corps" and the second decision taken by Attorney General.
"Prise de corps" ("take the body") is a decree in which if someone commits a crime he will be caught and heard by the justice. If not, his goods can be taken. A judgment shall be delivered within 15 days. He shall stay in prison if he doesn't pay or give something back.
Christophe.
-
Christophe - thank you for that extra bit of translation.
Malcolm - bit sceptical about that video after watching it :D
As far as being an "Aristocrat" - my 3 x great grandfather was described as "of noble blood" in an obituary, and apparently fled France to England at the beginning of the French Revolution. However, even with his French surname and backgropund, I have no idea how to speak French.
Les
-
my 3 x great grandfather was described as "of noble blood" in an obituary, and apparently fled France to England at the beginning of the French Revolution.
The only clue that can make us think that Charles Henry emigrated from France (or Jersey) to England is his profession (French teacher). He could also be the child of a person (or a couple) that emigrated to England.
He married january 1789 in England which means that he was already in England BEFORE the French Revolution . French emigration did not begin before the 14th july 1789.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89migration_fran%C3%A7aise_(1789-1815)
"L’Émigration désigne le départ d'environ 140 000 personnes hors du territoire français entre 1789 et 1800, en raison des troubles révolutionnaires et ceci dès le lendemain du 14 juillet et la prise de la Bastille. Ces émigrés, tenants de la monarchie et du pouvoir absolu, craignent l'effondrement de celui-ci. Si nombre d'entre eux sont nobles, prêtres ou religieux (44 %), il y a aussi des militaires (4 %), des bourgeois (17 %), des paysans (20%), des ouvriers, artisans et commerçants (15 %)."
Mary Bernard Corfe : Bernard was the name of her mother ,Corfe was the name of her father (probably a name from Brittany (Bretagne )(Corfe , Le Corff).) Bernard could be a middle name for her.
The couple Belin/ Corfe may have been :
a couple who emigrated to England before 1789
a couple who met in England , one or both of them coming from France
a couple who met in England whose parents or ancestors emigrated to England
I asked if they were Huguenots , do you know? The child from the couple Belin/Watts married in a catholic church , but where did Charles and Sara Watts marry ( catholic or protestant church in Jersey)?
If Charles was a Huguenot he may have come( back) to France because the religious status was better for the protestants in 1828 (no more religious persecutions).
-
Christophe
The ancestor was Charles Henry (Henri/Harry) BELIN b.abt.1755 (France?). First record of him is in 1789 as a French Master teaching at Winchester College, England, and marrying in Salisbury. He leaves England with wife in 1828, and moves to Valognes, France. Wife dies within months, and he remarries again 1830 on Jersey Island where his surname is now de BELIN. He dies 1836 in Paris, committing suicide after losing his fortune in the Royal Casino.
Its around this time his only child from his first marriage, Charles Joseph BELIN (b.1790 England), also changes his surname to de BELIN. The only child from his second marriage (b.1731 France) also uses the surname de BELIN.
The surname has remained unchanged since then.
Regards
Les (de Belin)
-
Can you give the wives names?
-
Can you give the wives names?
Joger
1) Marriage 6/1/1789, St.Martins, Salisbury
Mary Bernard CORFE
b.6/1/1767 Salisbury
bpt.18/2/1767 St.Martins, Salisbury
d.29/12/1828 Valognes, France
bur.30/12/1828 Valognes, France
2) Marriage 28/6/1830, St.Helier, Jersey
Sarah SPRATT
b.abt.1807 Salisbury
bpt 29/3/1807, Salisbury
d.1840 Paris, France
bur.3/12/1840 Paris France.
There was about 50(!) years age difference for second marriage, which is confirmed by documentation and newspaper reports of the day. Husband was about 76(!) when he fathered second son.
Les
-
Thank you for the information.
Doc 3&4: the Court and Attorney General saw Sanderson and Staples 8 days after the facts. S & S should pay 250£ each (probably to be released) and shoud come back to the Court if necessary, and may be sue for the duel.
-
Mary Bernard Corfe
http://www.archives-manche.fr/ark:/57115/a011288085774meMuH9/33f518cfa9
slide 273/283
-
https://gw.geneanet.org/amandataylor1?n=de+belin&oc=&p=charles+joseph
I guess you already know this
-
And this
https://www.geneanet.org/archives/registres/view/30054/184
-
Were they huguenots?
-
In the Tables decennales of Valognes I found the birth 19 january 1826 of a girl called Rosalie Sidonie BELIN but I can't find the "acte de naissance". Can't understand why , because all the pages of the register are there. Must think about this.
-
death MB Corfe
Daughter of the late Joseph Corfe and Mary BERNARD
She lived rue de Poterie
-
"The only clue that can make us think that Charles Henry emigrated from France (or Jersey) to England is his profession (French teacher). He could also be the child of a person (or a couple) that emigrated to England.
He married january 1789 in England which means that he was already in England BEFORE the French Revolution . French emigration did not begin before the 14th july 1789.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89migration_fran%C3%A7aise_(1789-1815)
"L’Émigration désigne le départ d'environ 140 000 personnes hors du territoire français entre 1789 et 1800, en raison des troubles révolutionnaires et ceci dès le lendemain du 14 juillet et la prise de la Bastille. Ces émigrés, tenants de la monarchie et du pouvoir absolu, craignent l'effondrement de celui-ci. Si nombre d'entre eux sont nobles, prêtres ou religieux (44 %), il y a aussi des militaires (4 %), des bourgeois (17 %), des paysans (20%), des ouvriers, artisans et commerçants (15 %)."
Mary Bernard Corfe : Bernard was the name of her mother ,Corfe was the name of her father (probably a name from Brittany (Bretagne )(Corfe , Le Corff).) Bernard could be a middle name for her.
The couple Belin/ Corfe may have been :
a couple who emigrated to England before 1789
a couple who met in England , one or both of them coming from France
a couple who met in England whose parents or ancestors emigrated to England
I asked if they were Huguenots , do you know? The child from the couple Belin/Watts married in a catholic church , but where did Charles and Sara Watts marry ( catholic or protestant church in Jersey)?
If Charles was a Huguenot he may have come( back) to France because the religious status was better for the protestants in 1828 (no more religious persecutions)."
NB : pasted from a preceding message page 2
I found several BELIN and BERNARD in the Livre des témoignages de Threadneedle St.
-
https://gw.geneanet.org/amandataylor1?n=de+belin&oc=&p=charles+joseph
I guess you already know this
Thank you Joger, but I do have this. In actual fact these are my own notes which I gave to the author of the site (Amanda Taylor).
Les
-
In the Tables decennales of Valognes I found the birth 19 january 1826 of a girl called Rosalie Sidonie BELIN but I can't find the "acte de naissance". Can't understand why , because all the pages of the register are there. Must think about this.
Joger - I don't think this is related. From my research Charles (de) BELIN and his wife Mary did not move to France until 1828. Records indicate he was still teaching at Winchester College in 1827. He auctioned all his house hold goods in June 1828.
Les
-
death MB Corfe
Daughter of the late Joseph Corfe and Mary BERNARD
She lived rue de Poterie
Joger - Thank you, but I already have this. However, I was never able to translate where she resided, which you have done - that is good! I can check Google Street View now, though there have been 2 x World Wars since then :(
Les
-
Joger
Yes, I am presuming Charles Henry (de) BELIN was born in France or Channel Island mainly because of him being a French Master, and moving to France in 1828. Further, when he died in 1836 newspapers of the day indicated he was born on Guernsey. When one of his granddaughters died in 1887, her obituary indicated she was descended from "Dr.de BELIN a French refugee of noble blood who escaped to England during the First French Revolution, and came to London and taught French".
My biggest probelm with all of this is, on his 2nd marriage record in 1830, it indicates he is "native of Dublin, and living in Valognes". Dublin was certainly a shock, but is it correct or a written mistake? The closest I can find to that birth is Carolus BELIN bpt.1764 St.Andrews, Dublin, to parents Georgii and Elizabeth BELIN married 1763. But that birth is too young and there is no middle name. My Charles Henry BELIN was "30 years and upwards" when married in 1789 (b.1759 or before), and when he died in 1836 newspapers said he was 87 years old (b.1749).
First wife Mary Bernard Corfe was b.1767 Salisbury. Father Englishman (composer and head organist/choir master Salisbury Cathedral). Mother also born in England.
You ask where Charles Joseph (de) BELIN married Sarah WATTS? He married in the British Embassy in Paris 1825. He was a Protestant Reverend for the British Forces in France, and resided in Le Havre for nearly 10 years where he also ran an English Boarding School. This was his second marriage, his first was in London in 1815, this wife dying in Le Havre 1824.
I hope this is not too confusing for you?
Les
-
https://www.geneanet.org/archives/registres/view/30054/184
Henry Charles DE BELIN, living 125 rue St Victor ,not of full age ,son of Charles and Sara SPRATT married Jeanne Henry on the 25th of august 1853 in St Nicolas du Chardonnet (catholic church).
Have you seen this link?
https://gw.geneanet.org/amandataylor1?n=de+belin&oc=&p=charles+joseph
https://gw.geneanet.org/amandataylor1?lang=fr&pz=timothy&nz=keary&m=D&p=charles+joseph&n=de+belin&siblings=on¬es=on&t=T&v=6&image=on&marriage=on&full=on
Is he your Charles Joseph ?
-
https://www.geneanet.org/archives/registres/view/30054/184
Henry Charles DE BELIN, living 125 rue St Victor ,not of full age ,son of Charles and Sara SPRATT married Jeanne Henry on the 25th of august 1853 in St Nicolas du Chardonnet (catholic church).
Have you seen this link?
https://gw.geneanet.org/amandataylor1?n=de+belin&oc=&p=charles+joseph
https://gw.geneanet.org/amandataylor1?lang=fr&pz=timothy&nz=keary&m=D&p=charles+joseph&n=de+belin&siblings=on¬es=on&t=T&v=6&image=on&marriage=on&full=on
Is he your Charles Joseph ?
Thanks Joger, but I have the marriage of Henri Charles de Belin in 1873. And all those other links are my own reserach information I gave to the owner of that tree, Amanda Taylor.
Les
-
Thanks for your answers.
I understand your difficulties.
Do you know what Charles Belin was doing in Valognes ?
-
Thanks for your answers.
I understand your difficulties.
Do you know what Charles Belin was doing in Valognes ?
Don't know why he went to Valognes in 1828. His wife died there that year, and by 1830 re had remarried giving his residence as Valognes. However, by 1831 his son by second marriage was born in Paris. Charles committed suicide in Paris 1836 due to big gambling losses at the roulette table.
Les
-
Further, when he died in 1836 newspapers of the day indicated he was born on Guernsey. When one of his granddaughters died in 1887, her obituary indicated she was descended from "Dr.de BELIN a French refugee of noble blood who escaped to England during the First French Revolution, and came to London and taught French".
My biggest probelm with all of this is, on his 2nd marriage record in 1830, it indicates he is "native of Dublin, and living in Valognes". Dublin was certainly a shock, but is it correct or a written mistake? The closest I can find to that birth is Carolus BELIN bpt.1764 St.Andrews, Dublin, to parents Georgii and Elizabeth BELIN married 1763. But that birth is too young and there is no middle name. My Charles Henry BELIN was "30 years and upwards" when married in 1789 (b.1759 or before), and when he died in 1836 newspapers said he was 87 years old (b.1749).
I would rather think that was is written in the registers is more reliable than what is written in a newspaper.
I would rather think that what is written in a register is more reliable than what is written in a newspaper.
From which source did you get the 2d marriage in Jersey? ( living in Valognes is true , we know it from his 1st wife's death certificate. Why not born in Dublin?)