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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Sutherland => Topic started by: gregperth on Monday 29 January 18 04:21 GMT (UK)
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There are three of us in Australia who want to know. In fact, there's only one now. The other two gents ((one of whom has been searching for nine years) have given up. I hold on to hope.
These Munros are either from Sutherland, or Ross-shire. Here's the story. Hope someone can shed light, as it will save my eyes, neck and fingers.
My third great-grandmother Christiana Munro(e) emigrated from Cromarty to Sydney aboard the Lady McNaughton in 1838, arriving 1839. She came as part of the Bounty Scheme, with Donald McDonald's family – a large one, with wife Mary and six children.
From her immigration card she is listed as a "native" of Dornoch, the daughter of John Munro, a farmer in the parish of Logie and Margaret Munro(e), his wife. Age was 24 on embarkation (birth circa 1814). Occupation, dairymaid.
She married English convict James Everson in 1840.
Unfortunately, that's all I have to go on. I have tried tracing her through Scotland's people but there are many Christy or Christiana Munros born to a John Munro and Margaret (surname unknown).
Greg Smith
Perth, Australia
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BDM NSW marriage
635/1840 V1840635 24B EVERSON Edward m. MUNRO Christiana @ MR
Can you scan the marriage certificate and post here. It will not have much information, but it would indicate if she can write.....witnesses are useful as possible family connection.
Is there a family connection with the McDONALD family that you have mentioned?
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Hi Greg
The parish of Logie is in Stirlingshire. Could it be instead Lairg in Sutherland? Or Logie Easter, R&C. This might help with trying to find her family in the 1841 census.
From her immigration card she is listed as a "native" of Dornoch, the daughter of John Munro, a farmer in the parish of Logie and Margaret Munro(e), his wife. Age was 24 on embarkation (birth circa 1814). Occupation, dairymaid.
Monica
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There is this 1841 census entry for example:
John Munro 55 agr. lab
Margaret Munro 60
Ann Munro 45
Catharine Munro 30
Address:Pitmaduthy, Logie Easter, R&C
One other enrty in Logie Easter, but John Snr is showing as a teacher for occupation.
The 1841 census is the most limited in terms of info. Ages were normally rounded down to the nearest 5 years and relationships within the household were not normally given.
Monica
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Not sure if this is the original but...............
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBY3-DSZ
ev
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That could be a help, Ev :)
Christina's father John is showing as 'of Lossie, Elgin'. This is in the parish of Drainie, Elgin I think.
Monica
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There is this family in Lossiemouth for 1841. Given the ages, more likely a brother and his wife to Christie rather than father and mother. Everyone showing as born outside the county except youngest:
Jno Munro 37 wright
Margt Munro 33
Robt Munro 12
Jno Munro 10
Margt Munro 8
Alex Munro 6
Daniel Munro 4
Andrew Munro 2 b. in the county
Address: Losscemouth, Lossiemouth Moray
I think this is the family in 1851:
Margaret Munro 46 b. Dornock, sutherlandshire
Margaret Munro 16 b. Dornock, sutherlandshire
Alexander Munro 14 b. Dornock, sutherlandshire
Andrew Munro 10 b. Drainie, murayshire
Address: 84th Street, Invergordon R&C
I can't tell from the transcript I am looking at the marital status of Margaret Snr in 1851.
Monica
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Can you scan the marriage certificate, 1840, and post it here please.
Maitland Mercury and Hunter River General Advertiser 23 Feb 1871 p1
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18752095?
On the 9th instant, at her late residence, Botany, near Sydney, Christina, the beloved wife of Edward Everson, aged 55 years, after a long and painful illness, leaving a husband and eight children to mourn their loss.
Can you name the eight children born to Edward and Christiana EVERSON.
SMH 10 Oct 1931 p9
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16822459?
Death of daughter Isabella Stephenson CASSIDY
BDM NSW marriage
804/1876 EVERSON Isabella m. CASSIDY Richard @Sydney
death
16624 / 1932 CASSHDY Isabella parents Edward / Christiana @ Redfern
Stephenson might be a family name from the MUNRO parent.
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The parish of Logie is in Stirlingshire.
Yes; but only partly. It is also partly in Perthshire and partly in Clackmannanshire.
There is also a parish of Logie in Fife, and there are Logie-Buchan and Logie-Coldstone in Aberdeenshire, Logie-Easter in Ross and Cromarty and Logie-Pert in Angus. Not forgetting Logiealmond and Logierait in Perthshire.
Christina's father John is showing as 'of Lossie, Elgin'. This is in the parish of Drainie, Elgin I think.
Yes, Lossiemouth is the largest place in the Parish of Drainie in the County of Moray, which is also referred to as Elginshire.
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Blimey, there is so much information her. Thanks to everyone. The information from the 1841 Census and follow up with 1851 is interesting. However, the mother, Margaret is missing. Quite possible they moved from Elgin to Dornoch, as Christy said she was from there and her father from Lossie. Here us a scan of the marriage certificate. The six children from the marriage were: Henry Edward, Robert, Margaret, Isabella, John James, William George.
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Been trying for several years to find the parents of Christiana Munro, born about 1816, who emigrated to Sydney aboard the Lady McNaughton in 1838. Her arrival card said she was a "native" of Dornoch. Father was John of Lossie. Mother was Margaret. Christie came in the care of Donald McDonald. Many searches, many records, none definitive. Christiana wen on to marry an English convict, Edward Everson. No one researching this line has any information.
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Who was she? Christiana Munro emigrated to Sydney aboard the Lady McNaughton in 1838 (no record of departure). Christy, who said she was a "native" of Dornoch, arrived in Sydney in 1839 and was listed as a dairymaid, age 24 (so born around 1816) to a John and Margaret Munro. She said here father was from Lossie. She came as part of Donald McDonald's family, who were from Dornoch. I've tried for three years to trace her lineage. She had eight children in Australia with an English convict, Edward Everson. But despite that no one connected to the Everson family have any information. Hope someone can help, please.
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Many thanks to all those who have provided information. However, it seems nothing is definite. Some say Christiana's father is from Logie (could be any of a number of places). However, I'm sure it says Lossie, who could be short for Lossiemouth. I have attached Christiana's marriage certificate. Her children were: Henry Edward, Robert, Margaret, Isabella Stevenson, John James, William George, Charles Ross, Mary Anne.
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Related post;
Threads merged.
Annie
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That immigration record does not say "Lossie". It says "Parish of Lo*ie". The letter represented by * is a single letter. It could be a single (not a double) s, or it could be g. In my opinion it is a g because it is similar to the g in 'MacNaghten' above and it is not like the single s in 'parish' or in 'his' or in 'housemaid'. (The clerk's rendering of Ross-shire omits the third s.)
Lossiemouth is not a parish. It is a town in the parish of Drainie. (There are several parishes with 'Logie' in their names - see above for details.)
Also the name of the town is Lossiemouth not Lossie. Yes, people nowadays sometimes refer to it informally as 'Lossie', but only locally and never in a formal situation such as an official document.
I think that, in relation to your Christiana Munro, any reference to Lossiemouth is a complete red herring and you should concentrate on Easter Ross and Eastern Sutherland.
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Many thanks and point taken about "Lossie". However, when people arrived they would often used the vernacular. I've had several people say Lossiemouth is possible. I never discount anything, though. That said, I'm on the side of Logie. But which one? Logie East seems most credible. Regards, Greg.
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Logie-Easter is far and away the most likely.
It is not all that far from Dornoch, so it is in the right general area. Also it is agricultural.
Drainie is agricultural but Lossiemouth is not. It was founded as the sea port for Elgin and has always been a trading and fishing harbour.
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And John Munro was a farmer (possibly tacksman). There is a hint he is the John Munro involved in prosecuting the Earl of Sutherland's estate manager Patrick Sellar during the Clearances. That would be awesome. Might explain the lack of information.
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What do you know about Donald Macdonald and his family?
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Previous thread asking the same question
Threads merged.
The earliest patent for a typewriter was filed in 1867. Therefore that card is not an original record, but a transcription. It does not match the detail in the handwritten record in your earlier thread so it is unreliable.
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Forfairian is correct.
In the last couple of days I have found a similar card for a Scottish Bounty family I am researching. It contains a number of errors, including one for a place name in Ross-shire which does not exist.
Have you looked at the original image of the shipping record? Lady McNaughton arrived in 1839 not 1838 (Christie is on page 4):
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5313/4_4780/Lady%20McNaughton_28%20Jan%201839/4_478000093.jpg&No=3
"Native place" is (only) Ross-shire.
I don't know what death certificates contain at various dates in various states, but have you checked Christies d/c in case it tells you both of her parent's names? If you knew her mother's maiden name you have a starting point to finding the parent's marriage in Scotland and possibly a lead to finding the rest of the family, baptisms etc ....
Sometimes obituaries give information about the origins of the deceased. Have you checked Trove?
Added: You might like to ask on the Australia board if the original document that the typed card was transcribed from is viewable anywhere. Perhaps on film at NSW State Archives? (I would also like to know the answer to this, so please let me know if you find out). :)
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Thanks for your interest. On his immigration card, Donald McDonald said he was a ploughman and stockman from Dornoch, age 35, Presbyterian, Read-only. Father Charles Cameron. Mother Bell Ross. Wife was Mary. Children: Alexander, Donald, Charles, Sophie, Bell, Jane. I have been approaching Christiana from the McDonald family relationship without success. But I'm an amateur.
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Yes. I have the original record, both the typed card and handwritten one. The ship left 28 Sept 1838 (no records) and arrived 28 Jan 1839. I usually give the departure dates I'm hoping someone will have a record.
Her marriage & death certificates only list her father, John Munro. Sydney Morning Herald records are scant, only one notice (surprising, given she had eight kids). Most of the children remained in the north coast. She died in Sydney and from what I gather, alone. "On the 9th instant, at her residence, Botany, CHRISTINA, the beloved wife of EDWARD EVERSON, aged 55 years, after a long and painful illness."
As regards Bounty families. She came as part of Donald McDonald's family.
McDonald was listed on his arrival card as a ploughman and stockman, “native” of Dornoch, age 35, Presbyterian, Read-only. Father Charles Cameron. Mother Bell Ross. Wife Mary. Children: Alexander, Donald, Charles, Sophie, Bell, Jane. He settled in the Goulburn area.
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Some of the Donald McDonald and Mary Campbell aka Cameron - Children have interesting middlenames?
Sophia Young McDonald born circa 1830
Jane Spence McDonald born about 24 May 1835 in Logie-Easter, Ross and Cromarty.
Mary Campbell aka Cameron <----- Also known as Cameron??
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Mary McDonald formerly Campbell aka Cameron
Died 26 Mar 1839 in Strathaird near Goulburn, New South Wales
Could be easy to follow up death in Australia
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Seceder records (presbyterian) records are not of Scotlands people are they?
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Seceder records (presbyterian) records are not of Scotlands people are they?
If the records have survived, and are in the National Records of Scotland, and the church has given permission for them to be digitised, they may be in the 'Other Churches' database on SP. Otherwise no.
NB the so-called Seceders are only some of many presbyterian denominations. The Church of Scotland, whose records are the largest part of the church records on SP, is presbyterian.
However the records of the Free Churches are unlikely to be helpful with Christy Munro because most of them post-date her birth. I looked through Diane Baptie's Registers of the Secession Churches in Scotland but there are no pre-1843 registers from either Ross-shire or Sutherland listed.
When I lived in the north-west Highlands, the term 'Seceder' specifically implied the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, which split from the Free Church of Scotland in 1893.
There were earlier splits, some of which recombined in 1820 to form the United Secession Church and the United Original Secession Church.
There is a splendid chart showing the various splits and recombinations of the presbyterian churches in Scotland. It is online at https://www.christianstogether.net/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=138977 - scroll well down to find it.
It does not of course include Baptists, Congregationalists, Episcopalians and Roman Catholics, and there were some other minority denominations, for example the Bereans, which arose from time to time.
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I should probably read your other threads related to this family as this may already have been covered ... but ....
On Ancestry on the Assisted Immigrant Passenger lists have you seen the image after Christys? It is for a Bell Munro "a member of Donald McDonald's family". Her father is Donald Munroe, a farmer in Dornoch, and her mother is Janet McKenzie. Bell is from Rosskeen.
Obviously not a sister to Christie but maybe a cousin? This family might be worth looking for?
The way the forms are filled in father's first name and surname is given and mother's first name and maiden name is given. Christie's father is John Munroe and her mother is Margaret Munroe.
If correct I am therefore presuming that Munroe is Margaret's maiden surname as well as her married surname?
Looking on Scotland's People I can see two marriages of a John Munroe and a Margaret Munroe which may fit with a couple having children in the early 1800s. One in Rosskeen in 1815 and one in Alness in 1795. If you do a search on SP for children with surname Munro* and parents John and Margaret there seem a few results. I have not checked thoroughly but did not see an obvious Christie or variants with those parents, but finding other children might lead to finding Chris*.
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Phew!!! When I first saw the header, I thought that someone had been stealing the mountains ::) ::) ::)
Malky
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I have attached Christiana's marriage certificate.
This is not her actual marriage certificate. It is typed, and typewriters did not exist in 1840. Therefore this must be a transcription. Have you seen the original?
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Not sure if this is the original but...............
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBY3-DSZ
It's from the card index to bounty immigrants, and was typed at least 3 decades after Christy's arrival, because there were no typewriters in 1839.
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There is a hint he is the John Munro involved in prosecuting the Earl of Sutherland's estate manager Patrick Sellar during the Clearances.
Where does this 'hint' come from? Do you know something more about Christy or her father that you haven't told us?
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That list Ruskie found also includes a Lexia Monroe, born Rosskeen. Have you looked into her?
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@ Malky, the lairds did that long ago! ;D
Skoosh.
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Greg, just noting that on Donald McDonald's details his mother's full name including maiden name is given.
Wondering whether Christina's mother Margaret and father John both had the same surname of Munro (not uncommon in those parts at that time) given what shows on her form?
Saw this entry here for example on FS https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1D8-CXT
Monica
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That list Ruskie found also includes a Lexia Monroe, born Rosskeen. Have you looked into her?
Possible entry for Lexia from SP:
Lexy MUNRO, father DONALD MUNRO/
22/01/1811 in Rosskeen
Ref 081/10 64
Likely sister to Bell Munro mentioned by Ruskie?
Monica
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That list Ruskie found also includes a Lexia Monroe, born Rosskeen. Have you looked into her?
Possible entry for Lexia from SP:
Lexy MUNRO, father DONALD MUNRO/
22/01/1811 in Rosskeen
Ref 081/10 64
Likely sister to Bell Munro mentioned by Ruskie?
Monica
Looks very possible Monica. :)
Generally a 24 year old single woman travelling alone did not need supervision. It is therefore likely that the McDonalds are family or close friends. If you haven't already done so, digging thoroughly into the McDonalds might give you a connection.
To answer your original question - I would start with the possibility that parents of your Christie are John Munro* and Margaret mmn Munro*. It might be worth investigating all the John Munro*s who have a wife Margaret Munro* in the right sort of area in the right time frame. However as we know mistakes happen especially when the official taking the details of the passengers has a couple of hundred to process - accuracy and nice handwriting are not a priority. :)
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Once again, thanks you all for your interest and assistance.
Ruskie, your theories certainly warrant more investigation. Yes, Monica, I am certain there is a family connection between Christy Munro and the McDonalds. My theory is Mary McDonald is Christy's aunt (maiden name Campbell) therefore linked to Margaret Campbell (Christy's possible mum). That's not to discount your theory Margaret Munro could have Munro as a maiden name. I will also look up this Lexy Munro. her father Donald may be John's brother, as I believe John's father was Donald.
I must also look up this Bell Munro.
Thanks goodness, the Munros are still there (the hilly ones, that is).
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How are mothers' names listed on the immigration records of other people on 'Lady MacNaughton'?
The original for Christy doesn't specifically say that it was Margaret's maiden surname that was Munro, so you cannot discount the possibility that Monroe was only her married surname.
Bear in mind that in England, a married woman's surname does change legally, so if the clerk taking down Christy's details was of English origin, and he asked her for her father's name and occupation, and then for her mother's name, and she just answered 'Margaret', he would have added the surname automatically.
If, however, the surnames of the mothers of other unmarried female passengers on 'Lady McNaghten' were different from their fathers' surnames, it would be more reasonable to suppose that Margaret's maiden surname was indeed Munroe.
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Roskeen, Logie Easter and Dornoch are not all that far appart.
Christian, Christiana and Kristy can all be the same name.
I had female ancestors that were named Christian.
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How are mothers' names listed on the immigration records of other people on 'Lady MacNaughton'?
Mother's maiden surnames are written on the passenger lists, for example:
Lexia Munro "daughter of Donald Munro .... and Barbara Ross his wife"
Christy Munroe, "daughter of John Munroe .... and Margt Munroe his wife"
Bell Munroe "daughter of Donald .... and Christine McKenzie his wife"
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Thanks, Ruskie and Forfarian. I have much to look at. I had never noticed the name Lexie Munro, though had seen Bell. Will spend the weekend doing what I can. I shale mention that the family has been researched for 40 years without any result. I've only been at it for two years. There are two other people in Australia who are interested. One chap is president of a major city's genealogical society and he hasn't found anything in nine years. The other chap is in far north Queensland and been at it for seven years. I will mention there is possibly a Munro connection to the Highland Clearances. But it is folly to put this forward without proof.
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So it is Margaret Munro married to John Munro.
I see a death of a Margaret Munro, mother's name Campbell, in Resolis in 1856, aged 62. If she was born 1793/1794 she would have been old enough to marry in 1815, so it's a possibility. Unfortunately it's 1856, so the death certificate will not name her husband. However the name of the informant might be useful.
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I will mention there is possibly a Munro connection to the Highland Clearances.
I would have thought that there is a definite link to the Clearances of any family emigrating from that part of the world at that time.
If, however, this is another oblique reference to the 'hint' you have already mentioned that John Munro might have been involved in the trial of Patrick Sellar, can you be more specific about this mysterious 'hint'?
But it is folly to put this forward without proof.
It's not folly to put forward a hypothesis. It's only folly to accept it as fact in the absence of proof.
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The passenger list says that Lexia Munro "came out with Ewan Mc Lachlan and his family."
Both Christie and Bell were said to be "a member of Donald McDonald's family."
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Bell Munroe "daughter of Donald .... and Christine McKenzie his wife"
Greg, there are quite a few trees on a/try Some look well researched with a lot of detail such as here www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/108543857/person/230152513460/facts
Bell's details given as:
Isabella Munro 1819–1881
Birth 1 JAN 1819 Alness or Tain, Ross-shire, Scotland
Death 20 DEC 1881 Woomargama, New South Wales, Australia
Marriage: 1 Nov 1839 Goulburn, New South Wales, Australia
Spouse: George Dawson
Her father's details show as:
Donald Munro 1783–1880
Birth 23 JUN 1783 Alness
Death 15 FEB 1880 Paisley, Renfrewshire
Donald's parents given as John Munro and Janet Bremner
If there was a family connection between Christina and Bell, maybe some clues there re Christina and her family?
Monica
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Something I just realised (on a different tangent) .... on the typed card in the first post, it says father John Munroe is from Lossie, Elgin.
On the original image of the passenger list the place name where John is farming is probably "Parish of Logie" (despite the g looking like a double s). There is NO "Elgin", or anything that can be interpreted as Elgin. :-\
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Something I just realised (on a different tangent) .... on the typed card in the first post, it says father John Munroe is from Lossie, Elgin.
On the original image of the passenger list the place name where John is farming is probably "Parish of Logie" (despite the g looking like a double s). There is NO "Elgin", or anything that can be interpreted as Elgin. :-\
:) That's exactly the point - the original doesn't mention Elgin, but the typed transcription does, so somewhere along the line someone must have added it, so maybe this person saw 'Logie' and misread it as 'Lossie', and thought he'd be clever by adding Elgin.
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Hello. This is a NSW card from Christy Munro (Scotland).
I can read most of it, except for the bit "a framer in the parish of ????"
Is it Losie, or Logie?
I ask because the second immigration card, which has been typed (copied from the original, I assume) which says: "Father, Munroe John of Lossie, Elgin".
Many thanks.
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It's Losie.
The third letter is the long-s, which was still common in handwriting in 1839.
I believe another example is in Rosshire, two lines above.
ADDED:
By the nineteenth century, the long-s was generally used only in mid-word positions, and as the first of a double-s.
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Thanks HorsleyDown86.
However, if that's a long S, why is it not used in the words "his" and "housemaid"?
On further reflection, to me it looks like the G in the name Lady MacNaughten.
Still somewhat puzzled. But leaning to Logie. But Logie Easter or Logies Wester?
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I also read that as the long 's'.
I would not expect to see a long 's' in that era in either 'his' or 'housemaid' .
I am familiar with transcribing NSW records in that era.
Those digitised images likely are from Ancestry who have a current partnership with the NSW State Archives.
Here is the contact details for NSW Archives. I am sure that if you were to send an email enquiry to them that they would confirm that is typical of the long 's' script used in that era. There were two 's'... the standard 's' and the long 's'.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/contact-us/ask-an-archivist
See also
:) https://herreputationforaccomplishment.wordpress.com/2015/04/22/rules-for-writing-long-and-short-s-in-jane-austens-era/
and
https://www.tug.org/TUGboat/tb32-1/tb100west.pdf
and
http://www.historyofinformation.com/expanded.php?id=2729
and
many discussions here at RootsChat.
JM
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Thanks, majm
Hmm. That creates a dilemma. There is no place called Losie in Scotland. There is a Lossiemouth in Elgin, which is a fair way from Dornoch. The locals sometimes refer to it as Loissie, so maybe Christiana said that to the official in Sydney. Fun, fun, fun.
Regards
Greg
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http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5313/4_4780/Lady%20McNaughton_28%20Jan%201839/4_478000091.jpg&No=1
Here is the NSW Archives live link to the passenger list of the Lady McNaughton, arriving NSW Jan 1839
Look for a passenger named George MUNROE. You will see he was of Rosshire, and a Mason. Notice the two ways of writing the letter 's'.
JM
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two snips attached, to help with deciphering of the long 's'
JM :)
oops, sorry, only one snip worked ::)
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:) Alexander MUNROE
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May I note that the info on this document may have not been read by the immigrant and actually be based on her verbal advice and her baptismal certificate.
On your other thread you mention she married in 1840. What info on the mc?
JM
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I agree that it looks like a long s but also like the g, as the OP mentions.
If it is a parish in Ross and Cromarty it would be Logie and also Logie Easter (Wester is in Urquhart). There is no such parish as Losie in R & C. Also, note that there is no second s after the longs/g, which further add to the conclusion that it is Logie.
This parish is to the South of the Dornoch Firth.
Gadget - who once lived in R & C
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:)
Hi Gadget,,
I am half a world away, and :D happily defer to your knowledge.
:)
JM
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There's a possible family in 1841
Pitmaduthy, Logie Easter
John Munro, 55-59, Ag lab
Margaret, 60-64
Ann, 45-49
Catherine, 30-34
All b. county
The only other one with a John in Logie Easter who is old enough to be the father, is a teacher
This on Freecen - https://freecen2.freecen.org.uk/
Gadget
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Yet another thread regarding Lossie/Logie:
Threads merged.
I am not sure where to post this, on this thread or one of the other threads, but I will continue here ...
It might be worth looking at all the passengers on the Lady McNaughton. On the above thread there is mention of an Alexander Munroe and a George Munro. Donald McDonald is there, as is wife Mary and children, and so is Ewan McLachlan. Parent's names are given.
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May I note that the info on this document may have not been read by the immigrant and actually be based on her verbal advice and her baptismal certificate.
On your other thread you mention she married in 1840. What info on the mc?
JM
Agh I see on the other thread there you have posted the NSW BDM isued document for the 1840 marriage ... civil registration commenced 1856 for NSW ... The early church ecords that NSWBDM holds are scant on their info, but I notice the bride signs with her X mark ..
Has anyone actually sought access to the parish register or the clergy family sheets for that parish?
Perhaps there will be details there...
Please check RChats NSW resources for the live links to flickr etc for the digitised images of C hrist Church Catherdal's baptisms marriages burials and family sheets... Northumberland is a county in NSW and Newcastle is its major city. MR ... the code on the marriage may well be within those digitised registers ... fingers crossed...
JM on kindle reader so unable to provide live link to the resources board for NSW ...sorry ....
:) :)
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I have posted further info on the thread on the decipher board but it mght be useful here too, ... briefly, the 1840 m.c. is pre civil registration for NSW ,,,, so scant info .... but bride signed X mark so unlikely to have had skills to read the immigration documents in long hand scrawl to notice any errors or possible mis-reads... BUT :) :) :)
Possible .... CofE may be ( big IF) the original parish register and also family sheet is digitised and readily available ... see my other post.
JM
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I've merged 2 topics to prevent duplication of effort and to keep things in one place.
These previous topics on this subject are here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=786760.0 (locked without replies)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=786759.18 (Merged)
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Thank you Dawn. :) It was getting quite confusing with so many Munroe threads.
JM, just for information ... on the passenger list it says that Christy can "read" (but does not say she can write).
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JM, is this the link to the Christ Church Cathedral register book that you wanted to post?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605132739200/
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Yes, :) but can see read scribble when in a queue and standing while the paperwork is on a table in front of a seated clerk who has loose leaf papers all facing him .. :)
Not easy to read scribble when it is upsidedown :D
If clerk was rushed then likely he said ' what name' and she said 'Munro' and then he fumbled around and found 'Christy'... and said 'next' ....
JM
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Yes , theres many more too but thats great ...many thanks Ruskie. :) :D
JM
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There are a number of entries for children to parents John Munro and Margaret Munro. These entries all show in Rosskeen, R&C. There may be more that one couple with this name in the area though:
24/06/1809 - Margaret MUNRO, John MUNRO and Margaret MUNRO
15/02/1810 - Alexander MUNRO, John MUNRO and Margaret MUNRO
28/02/1811 - John MUNRO, John MUNRO and Margaret MUNRO
28/05/1813 - Ann MUNRO, John MUNRO and Margaret MUNRO
17/02/1816 - Alexander MUNRO, John MUNRO and Margaret MUNRO
23/02/1823 - Catherine MUNRO, John MUNRO and Margaret MUNRO
12/03/1826 - Janet MUNRO, John MUNRO and Margaret MUNRO
Specifically for a Christina and variants, nothing showing in Sutherland (re Dornoch) but in R&C there are the following entries:
28/01/1806 - Christian, John MUNRO and Margaret MUNRO in Rosskeen
16/08/1809 - Christian, John MUNRO and Margaret MUNRO in Logie Easter
25/11/1819 - Christian, John MUNRO and Margaret MUNRO in Alness
However, as we all know, at this time the listings/entries are never complete :-\
The 1841 census in Logie for a John and Margaret family is also the closest I had seen before from a previous thread.
The Alexander and George Munro on the manifest, possibly father and son? Is there a way of identifying wives' names?
Monica
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I would not expect to see a long 's' in that era in either 'his' or 'housemaid' .
Neither would I.
Nor would I expect to find a long 's' in the middle of a word but not followed by a short 's'.
I have already told gregperth that I think it is 'g' as in 'Lady Macnaghten'. It looks nothing like the 's' in 'his', 'housemaid' or 'parish'.
There is no parish called Losie or Lossie or Lossiemouth in Scotland.
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The Alexander and George Munro on the manifest, possibly father and son? Is there a way of identifying wives' names?
Monica
Alexander Munroe, mason, age 41 yrs, his father David, a mason, his mother Christina Evans.
Wife - Jane, aged 30 yrs, her father Wm Fraser, a gardener, her mother Christina Ross.
Children - David 11, William 8, Jane 4, Margt 2.
George Munro age 24 yrs, stone mason, from Rosskeen Rothshire. His father Alexander Munro, mason, no mother's name given.
Wife Mary, age 26, from Otain?, Rothshire. Her father William Ross a farmer. No mother named.
1 child Alexander 12mths.
Obviously Rothshire should be Rossshire but it is quite clearly written as such for Mary. Writing Is awful, and it probably not worth the effort of trying to work out what the correct words are unless it is needed further down the track. There doesn't seem to be any relevant or close connection to Christe and her family.
The 1819 baptism of Christian in Alness would appear to be the closest age wise wouldn't it. Earlier I found a marriage between John Munroe and Margaret Munroe in Alness which may be the same couple. How to prove it though? :-\
Greg, do you know much about Christy's life in Australia? I am wondering if any of her siblings also made the journey from Ross-shire to Australia? Family members often came out seperately. There may be further information in their immigration records. :-\
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Thanks, Ruskie. There were so many Munros on board. As yet I haven't been Abe to determine who's connected to whom. Similarly, I have a list of marriages of John Munro and Margarets around that time (including that one in Alness). But indeed, how to prove who one is correct. What is frustrating is that Christiana had eight children, yet there is no information about them. Only one other person in Australia is researching the Munros directly - a chap in Canberra (DNA match) who has been doing it for nine years and he's no more advanced than me. There is another chap in Qld who is related to the McDonalds (Christy came with them) but he's also stumped. He is an expert at the Scottish naming conventions (ie, Munro can all be Cook), the septs and aliases. So far nothing concrete. Apart from my direct line of Smith (also a problem) I am most keen to sort out my Scottish lineage, as I have a son and granddaughter there.
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Hi Greg,
May I ask if anyone has actually sought access to the C of E parish register for Whittingham for 1840 the marriage? I can see that Christina MUNROE went to H P DUTTON Esq on disembarking the Lady McNaughton ... It is possible that the clergy recorded further info on their family sheet ... eg details of her parents... :)
JM
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Hi, Majm.
Yes, I have contacted them and the records are now only available at the University of Newcastle and you have to view them in person. Bit hard for me, as I'm in Perth :)
However, your note prompts me to perhaps ring them as ask if someone there could look it up for me.
Kind regards,
Greg
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:) If you email them and attach copies of both the 1985 NSW BDM issued certificate and the January 2017 official transcription as per your upload on the thread on the Sutherland board, I would expect them to appreciate the 'gaps' and find someone to help. I live at Nords Wharf, which is around 50 minutes or so from the main campus for Newcastle Uni. I rarely go to Newcastle but I have downloaded the images of the 1840 marriage and IF I do go into Newcastle, I will try to find spare moment to look up.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=786759.0 already mentioned :)
JM
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:)
NSW RESOURCES :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
At reply #2 ... live links to hundreds and hundreds of images of Early Church Records of the C of E, within the County of Northumberland, New South Wales.
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605008173551/ 1826 – 1837 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157604433014652/ 1837 – 1838 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605132739200/ 1839 – 1861 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605674610949/ 1856 – 1868 Marriages Register
JM
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https://www.newcastle.edu.au/library/access/places-and-spaces/cultural-collections
https://libguides.newcastle.edu.au/ccstaff contact us
JM
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These two were married in 1840 at St John's Wollombi, in the NSW Hunter Valley. However all parish records are at the Uni of Newcastle. Is there any way I can see them, without having to travel from Perth? Anyone in Newcastle, perhaps , that could help, please? I need to find out more about Christiana. Been looking for two years. Christiana was a Scottish emigrated and Everson was an English convict. Many thanks.
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Hi Greg,
You have posted in the ‘completed’ section. You may like to ask the moderator to move it to the main Aus board. Thread moved.
Jamjar
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Do you have her death details?
What do you already know about her?
Jamjar
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Thanks you, Majm.
Enough to keep me busy for a day. :)
Regards
Greg
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Somewhere across these various threads I think I recall mention that Christina was by herself at Botany when she died ....
Here's the Sydney Morning Herald announcement
Funeral Announcement for Christina:
The Friends of Mr Edward EVERSON are invited to attend the Funeral of his late beloved wife, Christina; to move from his residence Botany, near the Half-way House ….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28418610 SMH 10 Feb 1871
JM
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Is this her death?
1894/1871 EVERSON Christianah father JOHN died REDFERN REDFERN
Jamjar
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I wonder whether her mother was Isabella, given that she was Scottish she may have followed the traditional naming pattern for children.
Jamjar
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Her death notice, 1st column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18752095
Funeral, 1st column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article28418610
Jamjar
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:)
(Re contacting Uni of Newcastle who may well hold the original parish registers, including the family sheets)
:) If you email them and attach copies of both the 1985 NSW BDM issued certificate and the January 2017 official transcription as per your upload on the thread on the Sutherland board, I would expect them to appreciate the 'gaps' and find someone to help. I live at Nords Wharf, which is around 50 minutes or so from the main campus for Newcastle Uni. I rarely go to Newcastle but I have downloaded the images of the 1840 marriage and IF I do go into Newcastle, I will try to find spare moment to look up.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=786759.0 already mentioned :)
JM
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I have no idea which thread to post the following info on, but this may be useful re Christina's family in 1870s ...
NSW electoral roll 1870 CANTERBURY
Edward EVERSON, leaseholder, Botany
Robert EVERSON, at Everson’s, residence, Botany
John EVERSON, at Eversons, residence, Botany.
JM
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I should mention that the marriage cert does NOT show the marriage as for St Johns, Wollombi.
From the NSW BDM's codes: https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/early-church-codes.aspx
MR
Church of England
Oakville; Whittingham; Wollombi
The document seems to point to Whittingham (Wittingham) rather than Wollombi or Oakville parishes.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12873652 Sydney Herald 11 Feb 1842. Grant by governor of NSW for land for church, glebe etc at Wittingham. Note, it has not ever been a requirement in NSW for a marriage ceremony to be performed within a Church building.
JM
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=420616.0
:) Greg,
Some questions for consideration
:) How sure are you that the lass who married Edward EVERSON is your lass ?
:) If you are researching the wife of Edward EVERSON, how sure are you that she arrived on the Lady McNaughton rather than the lass in the thread linked above ? I realise that the NSW BDM death registration for Mrs Everson gives her father's given name as John, but that is information that is informant driven, and her father's name does not seem to be recorded on her 1840 marriage cert that you have uploaded....
I will see if I have spare moments during this week to follow up further on the info I posted on that thread for the earlier enquiry for Mary, re Bonded Servants.
JM
ADD NSW Archives, digitised passenger list :) for the other Christiana MUNROE arriving Feb 1839 .... just a fortnight after Greg's lass...
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5313/4_4780/James%20Moran_11%20Feb%201839/4_478000099.jpg&No=2
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Majm. This is the correct Christiana Munro (not the James Moran one) because I have the links to her via my grandmother, Thelma Cassidy, whose mother Matilda was the daughter of Richard Cassidy and Isabella Stevenson Everson, daughter of Christiana and Edward Everson.
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good :) so your EVERSON family were in Sydney and suburbs by 1860s ... and you know for certain that the lass on the 1840 marriage arrived on the Lady McNaughton ....
I am still trying to join up the dots to the lass on the Lady McNaughton and the lass marrying in 1840 as per the marriage cert...
JM
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Yep. Interestingly, apart from arriving the same year, both Christiana's were married in Manning river district but five years apart.
I also know this is the correct Christiana, as a chap who is president of the Canberra Geneological Society, who has been searching for nine years, confirmed it. We are both matched by DNA. He's now given up.
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PS: Yes, they were in Sydney. Everson was a constable in the Hunter but became a painter (unsuccessful) in Sydney (Botany).
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Yep. Interestingly, apart from arriving the same year, both Christiana's were married in Manning river district but five years apart.
I also know this is the correct Christiana, as a chap who is president of the Canberra Geneological Society, who has been searching for nine years, confirmed it. We are both matched by DNA. He's now given up.
Something odd there ... Whittingham in the Northumberland County is NOT in the Manning River district ... over 200 kms apart ...
JM
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On NSW BDM site the summary says both marriages were in MR. Maybe an error.
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Why do you think MR is Manning River ?
NSW BDM website has Early Church Codes. I posted link on one of the current threads.
MR is NOT the NSW BDM code for Manning River. MR is the NSW BDM code for CoE, Oakville, Wittingham, Wollombi. JN is the NSW BDM code for Presbyterian, Parramatta.
You need to get to the original parish registers for THREE marriages which are indexed at NSW BDM giving bride as Christiana/Christina MUNRO
1840 EVERSON = MUNRO
1843 O’BRIEN = MUNRO
1846 PATMORE= MUNRO
Edward EVERSON married Christiana MUNRO, 1840, you have the NSW BDM record for that, ie CofE Oakville, Whittingham, Wollombi
Francis B O’BRIEN married Christiana MUNRO 1846 Vol 30B, line 626 ie CofE, Oakville; Whittingham; Wollombi
Josiah PATMORE married Christina MUNRO 1843. VOLUME 76, line 1759 JN ie, Presbyterian, Parramatta.
So two of the marriages were Church of England, and in the County of Northumberland, and in ONE of three parishes (either Oakville, or Whittingham or Wollombi)
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx left hand menu:
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/early-church-codes.aspx
JM
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What denomination is noted on the Immigration paper for your lass arriving per the Lady McNaughton?
JM
ADD
I should mention that the marriage cert does NOT show the marriage as for St Johns, Wollombi.
From the NSW BDM's codes: https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/early-church-codes.aspx
MR
Church of England
Oakville; Whittingham; Wollombi
The document seems to point to Whittingham (Wittingham) rather than Wollombi or Oakville parishes.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12873652 Sydney Herald 11 Feb 1842. Grant by governor of NSW for land for church, glebe etc at Wittingham. Note, it has not ever been a requirement in NSW for a marriage ceremony to be performed within a Church building.
JM
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I think they are all Presbyterian JM. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. :)
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I think so too Ruskie. I am also expecting to be corrected if I am wrong. :)
I am very concerned as to which lass was the wife of Edward EVERSON.
JM
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And as the OP is sure that he is following the EVERSON line, then I am concerned as to how to find the right bride .... it seems to me that there's a possible to the lass on the Lady McNaughton based ONLY on the matching given name for her father ... matching immigration to death cert only. So to me the question is which Miss C Munro married Mr E Everson. To me, it seems there was at least three eligible Miss C Munro in NSW by early 1840...
ADD and of course, to me, I see Christy, Christie, Christiana, Christana, etc all variations of one given name ...
JM
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Mr Google Search Engine :)
Someone has the lass per the James Moran as the one who married at Parramatta. That contradicts my understanding of Greg's post re how he eliminated that lass. (O'Brien marriage :) )
This other family history buff has:
Early in 1843, Josiah married Christina Munro in the Presbyterian Church at Parramatta. Christina had come from Kincardineshire, Scotland, aboard the "James Moran" which reached Sydney Cove on 11 February 1839. The sibling relationship has not been researched, but also aboard ship from Kincardineshire were Alexander & William Munro, both Carpenters, who were assigned to Mr Henry Scope (Builder, Undertaker) at Liverpool. On 9 January 1843, the names of Josiah and the Munro men appear together in an electoral proposal list.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Patmore-91
With such scant info on those NSW BDM Early Church Records, ... ie frequently there's NO mention of parentage or origins etc. it can be very significant to seek out the original parish registers, to check if there's margin mentions, or other similar whitespace notes from the clergy. :)
So I wonder how that researcher knew which lass was which ::)
JM
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Yes. I have the original record, both the typed card and handwritten one. The ship left 28 Sept 1838 (no records) and arrived 28 Jan 1839. I usually give the departure dates I'm hoping someone will have a record.
Her marriage & death certificates only list her father, John Munro. Sydney Morning Herald records are scant, only one notice (surprising, given she had eight kids). Most of the children remained in the north coast. She died in Sydney and from what I gather, alone. "On the 9th instant, at her residence, Botany, CHRISTINA, the beloved wife of EDWARD EVERSON, aged 55 years, after a long and painful illness."
As regards Bounty families. She came as part of Donald McDonald's family.
McDonald was listed on his arrival card as a ploughman and stockman, “native” of Dornoch, age 35, Presbyterian, Read-only. Father Charles Cameron. Mother Bell Ross. Wife Mary. Children: Alexander, Donald, Charles, Sophie, Bell, Jane. He settled in the Goulburn area.
Hi Greg,
I am becoming confuddled .... in the above post you have
:) her father being named on her marriage cert...
:) her dying alone in Sydney ...
:) her children remaining on the north coast (of NSW) ...
and I am unable to confirm those aspects, rather I seem to contradict them ::)
I have two more questions...
:) apart from the Immigration Card, where else do you find any information about the parents of Miss Christina (and variations) MUNRO (and variations) .. she is obviously not the informant on her d.c.
:) Over the years of your researching this lass, have you followed up on the HP Dutton Esq....
JM
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I have followed up on the Manning River aspects. Yes, I realised these are NOT related to your Isabella S CASSIDY, daughter of Edward and Christina EVERSON...
I am suggesting there's several Edward EVERSON chaps in the right era in NSW ...
Re the EVERSON family on the North Coast, I cannot see any connection to the Edward EVERSON who married Christiana MUNRO in 1840.
NSW ER 1878, THE HASTINGS (this includes the Manning River District)
Edred EVERSON, leasehold, Kalateenee
Edred EVERSON, senior, freehold, Summer Island
Edred EVERSON, junior, freehold, Kinchela Island
NSW ER 1870, THE HASTINGS
Edward EVERSON, Summer Island, freehold
Edward EVERSON, junior, Summer Island, leasehold, Macleay River.
Edred EVERSON, Callitini, leasehold (JM notes if you say aloud ‘Callitini’ and ‘Kalateenee’ … very little difference, and of course these rolls were prepared on verbal information provided to the police appointed by the police magistrates)
GREVILLES PO Directory 1875 – SUMMER ISLAND
Edward EVERSON, farmer
Ed EVERSON, jun, farmer, Kinshela Creek
And from NSW Archives, and the BDA and the mariners websites:
Edred EVERSON aged 29 years arrived NSW per Parsee in 1859.
http://marinersandships.com.au/1859/09/018par.htm
Also on same voyage:
Eliza, infant
Robert, 2
Sarah 26.
Edward EVERSON aged 40 years arrived NSW per Rose of Sharon in 1855
http://marinersandships.com.au/1855/04/049ros.htm
Also on same voyage
Edward aged 7,
Mary aged 39
John aged 20
So I can see the dilemma your Canberra based contact faced. To me, I continue to suggest seeking out the original parish registers, and noting even the smallest detail, particularly in the 'margins' or in the 'white space' where you would not likely expect there to be any writing at all.
JM
ADD BDA https://www.bda-online.org.au/ this is a fairly new online resource, and is an ongoing project. You can search the indexes for free. There is a nominal subscription (annual around $30)
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Threads merged.
Although I haven't contributed or done any research on this family, I really don't understand the need for a separate thread/topic as it could have continued on the original, save confusion & double trouble i.e. duplication of effort ???
Annie
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:) yes, I agree.
I have continued to post on the Scotland R & C board, even though the info I am currently working through is NSW, but perhaps once we have found the right Miss MUNRO for the mother of Isabella EVERSON it can all be merged and popped on one board.
Our OP is fairly new to RChat, and so perhaps has not yet become familiar with all the various aspects of this wonderful website. :)
It is almost evening here. :)
JM :)
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Yes, that's correct. I have only used this site once previously and mistakenly added the same information. So apologies. If someone's experts enough, by all means combine them, please. As for the parish. Well I'm in Perth so lack some of the "local" knowledge. However, the Wollombi Church put me straight, as well.
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The Anglican Parish Office in Singleton (Whittingham is now a suburb) advises that registers prior to 1856 do not exist. Perhaps destroyed or never done.
The long list of Eversons mentioned are not "mine".
There were two books written about the Eversons.
1. The Everson families: a family history and genealogical record of the Everson families from the lower Macleay River districts / compiled by Phillip Everson.
2. The Everson story / compiled by Dot McDonald.
Neither of these books deal with my line, emanating from Edward Everson & Christy Munro.
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Re Donald McDonald link to Christy Munro. I'm just putting this here for the record and for others' information. It is input from a MacDonald family researcher in FN Queensland:
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Many researchers over the last 40 years, both family (those related to) and professional, have research this specific Donald McDonald family who arrived on Lady McNaughton in Australia. I myself for the last 8 years as they were my ancestors.
Without specific permission from other researchers to indulge their research and findings, I will address the below from the ‘general’ point of view:
1. Apart from the Immigration Papers, indicating that Donald was the son of Alexander McDonald, and his mother being stated as Bell Cameron, no other primary or supporting evidence has ever been found to support this claim that I am aware of to date.
2. General belief is that until proven otherwise, the below link is generally accepted by the majority as correct. Refer to below link:
http://www.clan-cameron.org.au/getperson.php?personID=I86444&tree=cameron1
3. However, in regards to 2., I am aware that there is at least two researchers of differing beliefs, who believe otherwise, and that these researchers are family researchers who’s ancestor was Donald McDonald.
4. To date, as far as I am aware, no birth/baptism has been found for Donald McDonald, nor any marriage certificate that has been proven to be correct beyond reasonable doubt.
5. It is generally accepted by the majority that Donald’s wife, Mary, was born of parents Charles Campbell and Isobel Ross in 1795 Fearn Parish, Ross Shire.
6. While the ancestry of Charles Campbell (Mary’s father) is generally accepted by all it appears to date; the ancestry of Mary’s mother, Isobel (Bell) Ross is in question. I am aware that there is at least 3 conflicting beliefs held by researchers as to who her correct parents were.
7. To date as far as I am aware, no one has put forward any firm claim for the reason why Mary Campbell was listed on the immigration papers as being born to parents Charles Cameron and Bell Ross.
8. Over the years that I have investigated the two Munro girls, “A member of Donald McDonald family”, although I have my beliefs and views on their ancestry, I have failed to find ‘primary’ evidence to support my views and beliefs. Without primary evidence, I am not prepared to state my beliefs as to their ancestry.
9. Due to the complexity of Scottish Ancestry, regarding all aspects that include naming patterns, interchangeable names both first and surname, clans, septs, and alias that were in use in Scotland in the time period that concerns us, it is too rash to make public any deductions, conclusions or statements unless primary evidence can be produce along with its supporting evidence to support the claim.
10. As proven years later when census were conducted, there were many who did not appear in the birth/baptism/marriage registers in Scotland.
11. It has been found by myself that on some of the Immigration Papers, that when stated “A native of Dornoch”, could mean that the person was born in the Dornoch/Tain/Fearn/Logie Easter or surrounding areas. It does not exclusively mean that the person was born in Dornoch or its immediate surrounds.
12. The area of interest, being Fearn/Tain/RossKeen/Logie Easter areas, did contain a vast amount of those with the surname of Munro and Ross, being their home lands of origin, probably higher in number per kilometre than anywhere else in Scotland. This, along with the fact that most of the families within these areas named their children similarly, such as Donald, John, Mary, Margaret, Alexander, Christian, etc, makes researching a little more of a challenge than usual.
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The Anglican Parish Office in Singleton (Whittingham is now a suburb) advises that registers prior to 1856 do not exist. Perhaps destroyed or never done.
The long list of Eversons mentioned are not "mine".
There were two books written about the Eversons.
1. The Everson families: a family history and genealogical record of the Everson families from the lower Macleay River districts / compiled by Phillip Everson.
2. The Everson story / compiled by Dot McDonald.
Neither of these books deal with my line, emanating from Edward Everson & Christy Munro.
Whoever has given you the info that there was no register for the combined three parishes (known as 'MR' in the NSW BDM codes) prior to 1856 has a poor understanding of the system.
:) :) Firstly, the record that the NSW BDM has based its documentation on is actually from those Early Church Records .... so the clergyman named on that document obviously kept his register.
:) :) Secondly, the Anglicans Eccs. regulations forbid the destruction of the registers, accepting of course that exceptions include they may be destroyed by floods, fire etc. And noted in the next replacement register the reason for its start date etc ... But in general terms, two concurrent registers were maintained by the clergy, and for outlying districts (eg 1840s,) the clergy were then required to transmit their entries on a quarterly basis so that the Diocese and the NSW Chaplains (ie Sydney) received the summary info.
:) :) Re the two concurrent registers ... the officiating clergy kept these, in two separate locations ... eg in saddle bag when on circuit duties, and back at residence/vicarage ... hopefully in a fire proof chest.
:) :) When a parish register is 'full'it is meant to be forwarded to the Diocese office ... hence my suggestion that you consider going through the flickr images I have previously mentioned, or contact the Uni of Newcastle via email .... It may well be months before I get to visit there.
:) :) The clergy kept 'cheat sheets'on their 'flock' and there's examples of the C of E family sheets .... one of the headings on these specifically sought the MAIDEN NAME of the wife of the head of the household and her parents too. If Edward EVERSON was noted in the document, then the clergy would have sought not just his wife's maiden name BUT also HER MOTHER's maiden name. :) You have the name of the clergy on the marriage cert :) and the parish in which he married the couple.
JM
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Re The chap that kept an eye on the lass on the Lady McNaughton, Donald McDonald ... A single woman aged 24 would not need to be related to that family to have been chaperoned by them, perhaps arranged by the Immigration Agent ... they may have been unknown to each other prior to seeking passage to a new country.
may I suggest that it would be sensible for you to consider following up on the man that Christy MUNRO was employed by on her arrival ... H P DUTTON Esq. He was in the Hunter district.
JM
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,,,,,,
Edward EVERSON married Christiana MUNRO, 1840, you have the NSW BDM record for that, ie CofE Oakville, Whittingham, Wollombi
Francis B O’BRIEN married Christiana MUNRO 1846 Vol 30B, line 626 ie CofE, Oakville; Whittingham; Wollombi
Josiah PATMORE married Christina MUNRO 1843. VOLUME 76, line 1759 JN ie, Presbyterian, Parramatta.
So two of the marriages were Church of England, and in the County of Northumberland, and in ONE of three parishes (either Oakville, or Whittingham or Wollombi)
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx left hand menu:
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/early-church-codes.aspx
JM
....
8. Over the years that I have investigated the two Munro girls, “A member of Donald McDonald family”, although I have my beliefs and views on their ancestry, I have failed to find ‘primary’ evidence to support my views and beliefs. Without primary evidence, I am not prepared to state my beliefs as to their ancestry.
Three lasses :)
The JN represents PRESBYTERIAN at Parramatta ... it is entirely possible that the lass marrying in 1843 is the lass on the Lady McNaughton in Jan 1839 ... rather than a lass marrying in the Church of England.
JM
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Rev Robert Thorley BOLTON, (the clergy named on the 1840 m.c. EVERSON = MUNRO, ... and the one who recorded those details in the parish register,)
:) he was born Narva Russia 1803 died 12 August 1881 at Dadford Stowe, UK. He arrived to NSW in July 1839 per the Strathfieldsaye.
:) He resigned as minister at Wittingham on 7 August 1840 and became minister at Hexham and Alnwick 28 October 1840, to which was added Woolombi on 5 July 1843.
:) He resigned from the Diocese of Newcastle (all the above parishes fall within that Diocese) in 1862, and returned to England, where he became the incumbent at Padbury, Buckinghamshire.
http://anglicanhistory.org/aus/cci/ pdf with over 3000 pages of biographical info on Anglican clergy in Australia (earliest in NSW from 1788)
:) :) I cannot guarantee that his first set of NSW parish registers will be at the Uni of Newcastle holdings, but I cannot see any reason for them NOT being there. There are hundreds of digitised images of the parish registers for the Christ Church Cathedral readily available, on line, dating back to around 1829, these include images of clergy records from outlying parishes, clergy on circuits, definitely not just ceremonies at Hexham. As this is now a very long thread, with many of the minor threads now merged, I will re-post the live link to RChat's NSW Resources Board, and the live link found there to the digitised images for Christ Church Cathedral, including family sheets and also baptisms, burials, marriages.
NSW Resources : http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
And from scrolling through reply #2 at that NSW Resources link:
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605008173551/ 1826 – 1837 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157604433014652/ 1837 – 1838 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605132739200/ 1839 – 1861 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605674610949/ 1856 – 1868 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605785759029/ 1869 – 1885 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605802132868/ 1885 – 1897 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606197590347/ 1899 – 1913 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605928662968/ 1913 – 1914 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606308436455/ 1914 – 1916 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606323070651/ 1916 – 1918 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606450662513/ 1918 – 1929 Marriage Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606952230042/ 1929 – 1936 Marriages Register
JM
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:)
I am sure we all understand that your confirmed ancestor is Mr EVERSON, and you have found his marriage in 1840, in NSW, and you are seeking to establish which Christiana MUNRO/E was his wife, so you can go back through her ancestors too.
Some background info re NSW marriages in the penal era, 1788-1840 ... remembering that there was NOT EVER any legislation that directed there ought to be an Established Church in NSW. No English statutelaw introduced from 19 July 1823 was effective in NSW (so all of what is now WA, NT, Qld, SA, Vic, ACT, New Zealand, and NSW) UNLESS the English Act specifically nominated it as effective in those 'territories'... (Refer Sir Francis Forbes, NSW Chief Justice at the time).
Sydney Gazette 22 December 1810 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/628150
(the NSW Governor) enjoins the ... Principal and Assistant Chaplains ... to keep or cause to be kept exact Registers of all Marriages, Christenings, Churching of Women, and Funerals which they may in future perform, and make a correct Return thereof once in every Quarter, to the Secretary’s Office at Sydney; and said Registers are required to contain the Marriages, Christenings, Churchings, and Funerals as well of all Convicts and Prisoners as of Free Persons...
So basically, the clergy of any denomination was expected to at least transmit a summary of the baptisms, burials and marriages they conducted to their superiors, who in turn were to forward information onto the civil authorities, so that England could forward funds to NSW based on a per capita calculation. Not all the clergy from any denomination obeyed these civil admin requirements. But I am quite sure that for NSW BDM to actually have that 1840 m.c. in their holdings, vol 24, line 635, of 1840, that they received it as part of the handover in the 19th century when NSW Registrar General made a general request. See the following https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/index.aspx scroll down to : ABOUT and click on the live link:"https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/history-of-the-registry.aspx Noting also that 'MR' is the 'district' for around 34 marriages in 1840, commencing at line 635.
:) :) State Archives
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856
Between 1826 and 1855 copies of Church of England records were required to be sent firstly to the Registrar of the Archdeacon's Court and later to the Registrar of the Bishops of Australia. These records did not pass into the possession of the Registrar General until 1882 following the Clergy Returns Transfer Act of 1878. They were subsequently numbered as Volumes 1-44 (Volume 44 also includes some records after 1856).
JM
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Yet again, many thanks for the abundance of information. However, the parish secretary said the records for 1840 are missing, either destroyed, or simply not done, so there's not much I can do about that. Still waiting to hear back from the university (I wrote a week ago). Meantime, I will download the Flickr files (it says family records) and have a trawl through them.
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Yet again, many thanks for the abundance of information. However, the parish secretary said the records for 1840 are missing, either destroyed, or simply not done, so there's not much I can do about that. Still waiting to hear back from the university (I wrote a week ago). Meantime, I will download the Flickr files (it says family records) and have a trawl through them.
Clearly the records for 1840 are NOT missing. There's one set that NSW BDM has in its archives at NSW State Archives. The Parish Secretary is likely a volunteer and perhaps not aware of the process back in pre civil registration, ie the transmittal of summary records through to the Diocese. You are seeking the original parish registers (two off) used by Rev BOLTON, who after leaving Wittingham (in the County of Northumberland,) went to Hexham (in the County of Northumberland) and of course the main admin for the Diocese was and continues to be based from Christ Church at Hexham. :) ADD, and at Morpheth.
JM
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Well, looks like a trip to the NSW Library, if I ever get to Sydney.
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Well, looks like a trip to the NSW Library, if I ever get to Sydney.
:D
NSW State Library contact details: http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/research-and-collections/ask-librarian
You could ask them for assistance and explain you are Perth based. NSW State Archives were hived off NSW State Library many decades ago.
NSW State Library likely has ARK kit, so Reel 5006 is likely the one to start at. :)
I see the ARK Kit is also available in Western Australia:
Western Australia
Library Board of Western Australia
Type: Public Library
Alexander Library Building, Perth Cultural Centre
PERTH WA 6000
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/community-access-points-0
JM
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Well done to all helping on this quest but...
JM, you never fail to amaze me with your knowledge of sources/resources downunder just as Monica does here in Scotland & elsewhere...a good team indeed! ;)
Annie
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Thank you Annie, I do my best. I have been interested in family history since childhood, so back in the 1950s when children were seen and not heard. Among my then living ancestors were various relatives who were very involved in family history. All four of my grandparents were born in NSW in the 19th century, and among their parents were two chaps who were with the NSW Registrar General's Office, which in 1856 dealt not just with the establishment of a civil bdm registration process but also with Deeds, including Land Titles. These chaps were NSW born too, and were particular with their paperwork trails. And their family history records were gifted to me in 1960s.
So long before the internet I was aware of the need to be 'pedantic'when seeking out NSW records.
I am most fortunate, as I have been able to continue family history studies as my past-time for decades, and it is all so very NSW centric. One of my lines goes back to 1790s, 'came free'ancestors ... see the flag that RChatter xinia made to flutter for me in my avatar. Another line or more are convicts arriving 1800s and 1810s ... others came free as part of garrison forces - regiments of foot, others came free for appointments in Col Secretarys and Col Treasurers offices. Most were here in NSW before convictism effectively ceased in 1840. Some though took their time and arrived with gold fever. Some came via New Zealand ... and some 'swam' all the way from Ireland, and two swam from landlocked Switzerland in 1850s ...
But along the way, the descendants of these assorted families include living retired C of E clergy, living retired NSW Archivist, living retired NSW BDM senior officers, and various other public servants .... the eldest sons all ended up ón the land, far western land division and western land division of NSW ...but the other sons and daughters ended up as employees. And, so over the years these families have all shared their private family papers with me, I have learnt conversing skills, I have continued with my great grandparents practices of lodging with the Mitchell Library (as in Sydney, not the Scottish one) and I continue to practice my family history skills (after retiring from various local family history groups) via RChat. :) I find most RChatters to be friendly, courteous and interested in my posts, although sadly, sometimes I think there's the odd RChatter who skim reads my posts and seeks to discredit the info I post without actually pausing to take the time to analyse the post.
I am sure that Greg appreciates the info I am posting, and I hope we can figure out which Miss C Munro married his ancestor in 1840. I think we may need to eliminate all the other Miss C Munro lasses before we can be confident of which one is his. :)
Thanks Annie :)
JM
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I sure do appreciate it. Now can you please just s-l-o-w down because I will need weeks to sift through everything you have posted. :) Unfortunately, I'm in Perth, and all my heritage is in NSW and I have many dead ends (including a low-life criminal on the Smith side and a GG grandmother who was found guilty of manslaughter of a child and had two more children in Dungog (to an unknown person) after she was released (one the kids was my great grandfather).
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Of course. :) but do contact the Perth library for access to the ARK kit ... :)
Add,hopefully it will be handwritten m.c. with original signatures for groom, witnesses, and her x mark. Remember to check the Immigration papers re Read/White. :)
JM
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I sure do appreciate it. Now can you please just s-l-o-w down because I will need weeks to sift through everything you have posted. :) Unfortunately, I'm in Perth, and all my heritage is in NSW and I have many dead ends (including a low-life criminal on the Smith side and a GG grandmother who was found guilty of manslaughter of a child and had two more children in Dungog (to an unknown person) after she was released (one the kids was my great grandfather).
JM...!!! ;D ;D
At your age ??? you too should be slowing down but when you get started you're like an out of control Bobsleigh ::)
Your insistence/perseverance in finding info. is remarkable!!!
I'm sure JM, you were employed by the KGB at some time i.e. old habits die hard.... :D
Greg, I'm sure you'll need a fair time to go through everything as JM misses nothing although to our advantage, thankfully ;)
Annie
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Right, slowing down now... https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCY-894 and see the flickr images, for a marriage for a lass by surname EVERSON, in December 1840 .... now look at attached image, and notice the clergy has given name of ship of arrival and status (came free) for the groom, and that the bride was born in the colony !
That's what I am hoping you will find on the image for YOUR 1840 marriage.
JM
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Update. My email two weeks ago to the Uni of Newcastle went unanswered because it was in a junk folder. Only found that out when I called today (but the phone didn't answer, because it was out of order). Eventually got through to a very helpful archivist. Now they will have a look at the marriage. Off to State Library to view this ARK kit.
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fingers crossed that junk folder experience is the last of the adverse ones for your quest. Archivists are always happy to help expand our knowledge of their holdings... :)
JM
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From the Uni of Newcastle:
"I have examined the Parish Register of the Parish of Singleton (former name Whittingham), and have found the original entry for the marriage of Edward Everson and Christiana Munro (original in every sense, for the information held in Sydney is just a copy of the original register held here). Unfortunately, the information in the Register is exactly the same as that which you have from Sydney, with nothing beyond what is given on the Marriage Certificate which you sent us. Theirs was the first marriage conducted at Whittingham by Rev. R.T. Bolton, the parish itself having been created only in the previous year. Their number in the Register is 1. e're told, services were held in a house in Hunter St, Singleton, rented from Mr Henry Dangar of Neotsfield."
Of course, that assuming I have the right Christiana Munro. I took my lead from a chap who is the president of a genealogical society and related to Christy (and matched to me via DNA). He'd done nine years' research and not produced anything more.
The presence of other Christiana Munros (pointed out by you good people) now causes me to just say: "oh what the heck, just be happy you've got a Scottish connection".
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Update following someone's suggestions about information on HP Duton, who Christiana worked for. I couldn't find anything and neither could the University of Newcastle. I do love the bit about who Dutton is related to, though.
"... no holdings which relates specifically to Henry Pelerin Dutton, beyond an entry in the East Maitland parish register for the baptism of his son Charles in 1835, where the father is described as “merchant and settler” in the district of Patrick’s Plains, i.e. the country around Singleton, and another from the Singleton register for the baptism of his son Henry in 1840, where he is described simply as “settler.” The N.S.W. Directory for 1837 gives the name of his establishment as “Woodvine,” but the name is no longer to be found in the district. From what I’ve found online (which you may have found also), it appears that he became insolvent in 1844, and that the family subsequently relocated to Queensland. Interestingly, though, it turns out that he is Peter Dutton’s great-great-great grandfather: https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/dutton-through-the-ages?utm_term=.shLVAKW7EG#.meN1EdJo6N