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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: didowells on Tuesday 30 January 18 17:12 GMT (UK)
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Have at last found some concrete evidence of his existence. He was my 3 x great grandfather and I don’t know for certain when he was born but it was round about 1770. Also don’t know where he was born – possibly Scotland.
His death was 1829 and his headstone is in the churchyard of St Mary Magdalene, Gillingham.
He was married to Ann (no maiden name) and the children I have for them are
Mary Ann baptised 18 May 1800 in Alverstoke
Henry baptised 14 Nov 1802 in Alverstoke
Elizabeth Ann baptised 11 Sep 1804 in Alverstoke
Jane Black baptised 19 Oct 1806 in St Mary’s Portsea
Harriot Black baptised 21 Aug 1808 St Mary’s Portsea
Eliza Black born approx. 1815 in Guernsey
On the 1841 Census Ann appears as a nurse at the District Ordnance Hospital, Gillingham
Ann – according to 1851 census – was born in Portsmouth about 1771
On the 1851 Census at 1 Manor Street, Gillingham she is head of the household and widowed and her occupation is East Ind Comp Pensioner
Please can anyone help me to find out about his service record. I would love to know where and when he was born and who and where he married.
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Hi,
There are a couple of mentions of a John BLACK Quartermaster Sergeant in the book "The History of the Corps of Royal Sappers and Miners. Vol II",
https://archive.org/details/cihm_33314
I found him here,
https://archive.org/stream/cihm_33314#page/n319/mode/2up/search/black
"1814 Dec 1. John Black, enlisted July 24, 1790. Was sergeant-major to the Guernsey half company. At the close of the war was appointed quartermaster-sergeant."
https://archive.org/stream/cihm_33314#page/n321/mode/2up/search/black
"John Black, after a service of twenty-eight years was discharged in February, 1819, and died some years after at Chatham."
More info in Vol I,
https://archive.org/stream/historycorpsroy00conngoog#page/n7/mode/2up/search/guernsey
Maybe knowing his date of enlistment and more about his regiment will help find out more about him :)
Regards,
Daisy
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Daisypetal
You have made my day. Thank you so much for this information. I will have a good look tomorrow at the links. The reference to Guernsey explains the birth of Eliza.
Di
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I wonder if this is the right John BLACK?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14440594
The service years fit :-\
Looking through the National Archives until I'm dizzy :) I think that some of the "Sappers and Miners" records might be included with the Royal Artillery, but I'm definitely not sure :)
I've just found this which looks interesting, I haven't had time to look through it very much but it might explain why in 1851 Ann is an East India Company Pensioner.
Daisy
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Hi Daisy
Have had a look at the links you gave me but I'm a bit confused. It looks like the right John Black in the Royal Artillery Pensions Register but what does it mean? Did he join the RA?
I'm not very good at searching in the NA but do thank you for your efforts. Can I get any further do you think? Sorry about all these questions :)
Di
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I'm sorry, I forgot to put the last link into the above message :-[
It was supposed to say,
"I've just found this which looks interesting, I haven't had time to look through it very much but it might explain why in 1851 Ann is an East India Company Pensioner."
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lgf/
I was struggling with finding info about this at the NA but I found references like this that made me think that "sappers and miners" were connected to the Royal Artillery in the records :-\
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3763766
Looking through "The History of the Corps of Royal Sappers and Miners. Vol. I" I found that the "Sappers and Miners" were changed to the "Royal Artificers or Sappers and Miners" in 1812 then to the " Royal Sappers and Miners" in 1813 so following John's record could be challenging.
I found this man who joined the Royal Artillery then the Royal Sappers and Miners,
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lgg/
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8836047
So it seems possible that John BLACK did the same.
I would be so curious that if I were you I would risk paying the £8.40 and request a copy to see if they can find his record and how much it would cost to copy it.
Daisy
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There are a couple of possibly relevant HEIC pension records on FindMyPast
- a John Black signing for his pension in July 1829
- Ann Black deceased 7 February 1856 in Chatham pension district
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Daisy
You have been absolutely brilliant looking into this for me. I must admit that I am a bit out of my depth here.
You are suggesting that I request a look up for me but I'm not sure exactly how to go about it. Sorry to be such a wimp. I'm not asking you to do it for me but just point me in the right direction!
Di
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ShaunJ
Thank you for looking for me. I have had a look at Find My Past but once again can't find what I'm looking for! Please could you tell me how you found these records.
Di
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I searched in the "India Office Army & Navy Pensions" dataset
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Shaun
Found them both thank you very much.
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The HEIC pension is quite puzzling. John Black must have worked for the Honourable East India Company after his discharge from the Army.
Per the British Library website: The Lord Clive Fund ..provided benefits for European officers and other ranks of the East India Company and Indian Army and their widows but not their children. Founded c1770, last pensioner admitted c1885. Fund registers in series L/AG/23/2, payment books mainly in series L/AG/21/10. These were 'ex gratia' pensions, awarded on a charitable basis and not as of right; there were no subscriptions to the Fund. The records relate mainly to payments made in the UK. There is a modern index showing widows admitted to pension in the UK between 1769 and 1885.
http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelpregion/asia/india/indiaofficerecordsfamilyhistory/pension/pensions.html
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I was struggling with finding info about this at the NA but I found references like this that made me think that "sappers and miners" were connected to the Royal Artillery in the records :-\
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3763766
The explanation for this reference apparently putting him in the Royal Artillery is that in the title "Royal Artillery, Sappers and Miners" should read "Royal Artillery and Sappers and Miners". It is a register of the claims of men of the two regiments for medals relating to the Peninsular War.
You may wish to download the document for free and search for him among the Sappers and Miners just in case he served in that war.
The other NA link is quite clearly to WO 69 which covers Royal Artillery personnel and the service of a John Black at the same time is simply a coincidence. Sappers and Miners had their own set of pensions documents.
I would discount the perceived link with the Royal Artillery.
MaxD
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Thank you MaxD for finding an explanation about the NA ref.i found, I was going round in circles :)
I don't think that John appear would appear in it as image 2 mentions "claiming Medals under the General Order dated 1st June 18147" I think it is images of this medal list,
https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/medals/military-general-service-medal
John died in 1829.
But I think that the idea of John BLACK serving in the Peninsular War is a good possibility, it might explain why there is a gap in the children's births between 1808 to 1815. I wonder if Ann went with him and had other children abroad?
Do you know where the Sappers and Miners pension records are? The nearest thing I can see is the "War Office and predecessors: Engineers Muster Books and Pay Lists" which refers to the "The Royal Corps of Sappers and Miners," bit seems to be a huge amount of different regiments and companies etc. I have no idea how to search it to find John BLACK or if that is even possible without going to the NA :-\
If John worked for the East India Company after leaving the British Army couldn't he receive his Army pension when he left?
You sound more knowledgeable about military records that I am, I'm on a steep learning curve ;D
The John BLACK with the Royal Artillery record could easily be a different one but my curiosity would make me check :)
Regards,
Daisy
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Oops, sorry Di, I forgot to explain how you would do a look up :-[
If you still wanted to order thee John Black Royal Artillery records you click "Request a copy" on the right of the page,
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14440594
I haven't done this method of ordering from the NA before so I can only suggest that you read all the instructions carefully and then when they email you with the "full breakdown of the cost of copying the record" decide if you think it's worth it, but you will have to pay the £8.40 for them to check if they can find it.
It feels like ordering a BMD certificate when you are not 100% sure it's the right one ::) :)
I'm also getting out of my depth the further into the military records I go :)
Please don't ever feel that you are asking too many questions, there are always people here who are happy to try and answer :)
Daisy
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Indeed, the army order of 1847 was an invitation for artillerymen and engineers to claim medals for the Peninsular war and as he died in 1829 then he wouldn't appear on the list at all.
The Royal Artillery John Black served with the RA for the same years so he can't surely be the same man serving those years as a Sapper and Miner!
Army pension records are not separated out to regiments and corps except for the Royal Artillery who, as always, did things differently! Best to read the National Archives guide to cover all the places that may or may not have QMS John Black Sappers and Miners in them.http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-soldiers-up-to-1913/
MaxD
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I would just like to thank everyone for their efforts regarding my John Black. I hope in time to sort through all the links and make a time line. Whether I shall ever discover where he came from I do not know :P