RootsChat.Com

England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: ila29 on Thursday 01 February 18 21:26 GMT (UK)

Title: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: ila29 on Thursday 01 February 18 21:26 GMT (UK)
Hello everybody, after much perseverance :( I am now seeking help. Having traced this branch of the family back I've come to a standstill and I would appreciate any information on the following person:

Henry Wilkinson Symonds.

His son Edward Wilkinson Symons (b. 1858 Isleworth, Middlesex - d. 1901 Epsom, Surrey)
married Louisa Jane Banks (b. 1861 Islington, Middlesex - d. 1919, Lewisham, Kent)
on 13 July 1881, St. Paul's, Hammersmith, Middlesex. Their marriage certificate records Henry as a clerk and deceased. Also, Henry is recorded as having a letter d in his surname and Edward without.
Seems a little strange ???

For any info, thoughts or ideas, many thanks,  :)
Ila

Title: Re: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: MaureeninNY on Thursday 01 February 18 22:09 GMT (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat!

There's a baptism for Edward Wilkinson SIMS born 11 Nov 1857 -Baptism Date:23 May 1858 St Paul Hammersmith -Parents Henry (a Clerk) and Mary.

I can't really see a matching birth for him unless it's the Edward SIMMS born Dec Qtr 1857 Brentford. (can't even find that one on the GRO index. ::) )

Maureen
Title: Re: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Thursday 01 February 18 22:39 GMT (UK)
May be this one? No mmn listed so likely illegitimate

SIMONS, EDWARD       -     
GRO Reference: 1857  D Quarter in BRENTFORD  Volume 03A  Page 41   
 

Welcome to Rootschat ila29
Title: Re: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: MaureeninNY on Thursday 01 February 18 23:05 GMT (UK)
May be this one? No mmn listed so likely illegitimate

SIMONS, EDWARD       -     
GRO Reference: 1857  D Quarter in BRENTFORD  Volume 03A  Page 41   
 

Welcome to Rootschat ila29

Thanks,Cas. Yes,that's the one I was trying to find. Don't think it's him,though. :-\

Maureen
Title: Re: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: rosie99 on Friday 02 February 18 10:12 GMT (UK)
Welcome to rootschat  :)

Also, Henry is recorded as having a letter d in his surname and Edward without.
Seems a little strange ???

The D has only been added by the clergy - he would just have written it as it sounded to him. Edward signs as Symons
Title: Re: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: ila29 on Friday 02 February 18 13:57 GMT (UK)
A big thankyou to Maureen, Cas and Rosie for your help. :)
Title: Re: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: ila29 on Saturday 03 February 18 20:25 GMT (UK)
Hello all,
Just wanted to say how nice to be part of this wonderful community.  :) I am very grateful to those who have responded and with such speed. :) My problem is everything seems to relate to Edward Wilkinson Symons, not his father Henry Wilkinson Symons. I realise the surname has so many variants. :o In order to progress this family line any ideas would be most appreciated. :).
Thanks,
ila
Title: Re: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 03 February 18 21:08 GMT (UK)
There's a baptism for Edward Wilkinson SIMS born 11 Nov 1857 -Baptism Date:23 May 1858 St Paul Hammersmith -Parents Henry (a Clerk) and Mary.

Age is two years older, but the day/month match
Royal Navy Registers of Seamen's Services
Edward Symonds
Place of birth: Isleworth, Middlesex
Date of birth: 11 November 1855
Official Number:   85058
Date: 1874
TNA Ref: ADM 188/80/85058

I don't know if he might be the Edward Simons in Woolwich in 1871, one of the boys "training for seaman".
Age is 15, ties in with the navy record, but born Pimlico.
Title: Re: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 03 February 18 21:35 GMT (UK)
My problem is everything seems to relate to Edward Wilkinson Symons, not his father Henry Wilkinson Symons.

It doesn't look as if there ever was a Henry Wilkinson Symons. More likely perhaps that Edward was illegitimate. Perhaps his father was Henry Wilkinson?
The Brentford birth certificate that has been mentioned looks as though it may be worth a punt. Even though the name is Simms in the original GRO index.
John
Title: Re: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 03 February 18 21:45 GMT (UK)
1881 has Edward Symons, 23, born Isleworth (Icleworth), Shopman (H. + beef) at 373 New Cross Road, Deptford.
Head is Louis Lavienichi (Lazienichi), Ham & Beef Warehouse

What is that occupation on Edward's navy record - Beef Cutter?
Title: Re: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: ila29 on Monday 05 February 18 16:29 GMT (UK)
Quote
It doesn't look as if there ever was a Henry Wilkinson Symons. More likely perhaps that Edward was illegitimate. Perhaps his father was Henry Wilkinson?

Hello John,
Thanks, I already have the info about the New Cross Ham/Beef shop.

I need some clarification as I feel I'm being a bit slow with regard to Edwards illegitimacy. I realise that on Edwards marriage certificate to Louisa Jane Banks it shows his father as one Henry Wilkinson Symonds, a clerk, deceased and that this may have been simply a space filler to legitimise Edward.
My problem is where does the surname come from? Why not just write Henry Wilkinson?

ila

Title: Re: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 05 February 18 17:23 GMT (UK)
Hi
I suppose it's possible that Edward believed his father was Henry Wilkinson Symonds.
Although if that is his baptism in Hammersmith, the father is plain Henry. Occupation Clerk on both. It would seem that Edward knew something about him!
If Edward knew that he was illegitimate but was not wishing to broadcast that fact on his marriage record, then he would certainly say his father was Symonds.

But we don't really know anything about his early life. If that is his birth registration in Brentford, then, yes, it appears he was illegitimate. In which case we would expect that his mother was a Symonds (or however it may be spelt)
A big question is, do the 1857 birth record and the later Hammersmith baptism relate to the same Edward? If yes, then presumably for the same sort of reasons as Edward had on his marriage, his mother seems to have been keen to hide the fact that her son was illegitimate when he was baptized. So then a father must be given.
We might then say that Edward's father could have been a man called Henry. But it's not impossible that the mother borrowed the name of her own father or some other relative for the occasion. Why then the Wilkinson name? But I honestly have no idea if it really was a man called Henry Wilkinson.

Mentioning the navy record, and the beef!, is really about trying to link some of these things up, particularly the 11 November birth date and the Isleworth place of birth. What we don't know of course is exactly what is on the birth certificate.
John
Title: Re: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: ila29 on Tuesday 06 February 18 15:11 GMT (UK)
John,
Your post makes things clearer one hand and on the other opens more possibilities. ;D  :( Without more solid evidence, I suppose this branch of the family stops.  :'(
Thanks again for your help
ila
Title: Re: Henry Wilkinson Symonds
Post by: rosie99 on Friday 09 February 18 08:37 GMT (UK)
May be this one? No mmn listed so likely illegitimate

SIMONS, EDWARD       -     
GRO Reference: 1857  D Quarter in BRENTFORD  Volume 03A  Page 41   
 

ila29, you may not be aware but there are two versions of the GRO index, the one posted by cas has recently become available. I understand that they are from different sources of GRO records so spellings can somtimes vary.

The other index for the same record which freebmd have is
Birth Dec qtr 1857 
Simms    Edward       
Brentford    3a   41