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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: KCB16 on Saturday 03 February 18 21:31 GMT (UK)
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The fourth line down on "Where born" is supposedly the birthplace of my great grandmother. It has been indexed as "Manchester, Lancashire." She was a servant in this household. As far as I can tell from other records, she did not know her exact place of birth, as the only other place given never existed.
It looks to me as if her birthplace has been erased on this record, if that is possible in 1891. I don't know what the line or the markings on the line might mean. Does anyone here know? Would you consider her place of birth Manchester as well?
Thank you
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I don't think it has been erased, I think that it is two " used to denote same has above
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I agree it does look as though it has been dittoed without using ‘Do’.
Do you want to give her name and any other census you have for her? It might help.
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The other census I have is the: 1901 census
Annie Richards, age 25, domestic servant, birth place Hythe, Lancashire.
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My first thought would be Hyde, Stockport registration district but that would most likely be Cheshire.
As she is in Liverpool, there is Huyton ???
Here is the reference for anyone searching.
1901/3420/70/9
And 1891 36/166
Are you sure both censuses refer to the same woman?
What happened to her after 1901?
You could try Liverpool Archives re Workhouse records
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Liverpool/#Records
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You say she is your great grandmother which implies that she married. Do you know whom she married and when?
You presumably worked backwards from yourself to get to her.
If a marriage record can be found that would hopefully give a father's name.
Have you found her in the 1911 census?
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My grandfather was an illegitimate child. He and Annie lived in the workhouse until he was adopted at the age of 6. I appreciate the research help, but I'm only here to ask about this particular record as I have hired Liverpool researchers who are scratching their heads, and have gone through every Annie Richards born in England around her age and followed them through their lifespan to see if they could possibly be her. This record is one of only a handful that I can't pinpoint to a particular Annie. My only real hope is to find her via DNA matches as I have worn out any possible paper trail. Luckily with DNA, I am much closer to finding her.
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Have you had any luck with Liverpool Workhouse records?
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Re: the form that you have posted,
I have some Census entries with a 'D' or 'Do' below the Birth place given on the line above. I have interpreted this to mean 'Ditto' or 'Same'.
I might be wrong of course... in which case, I will need to revisit the Entries that I am thinking of!
Romilly.
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Yes, I think it's ditto marks.
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I would think that Liverpool Workhouse records would be the best way and hope that you are successful there if you decide on that route.
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I have a copy of Liverpool workhouse records, but they do not indicate a birthplace, a family member, or any idea of where she came from. She could not read, so addresses from whence admitted were best guess and most of them are incorrect.
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Could Hythe, Lancashire be Hythe Close in Manchester?
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I have a copy of Liverpool workhouse records, but they do not indicate a birthplace, a family member, or any idea of where she came from. She could not read, so addresses from whence admitted were best guess and most of them are incorrect.
Oh dear. I am sorry. It seems to be very difficult for you. Often they do give some information.
I don’t quite understand what you mean about ‘best guess’ re the addresses - or how you know they are incorrect.
Is that definitely her in 1891 as you posted?
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Liverpool had an address directory, and some of the addresses she gave did not exist. I have given up finding her on a paper trail. I am closer to finding her through genetic genealogy.
Like I said earlier, I have searched over 900 people with her name and approximate age and followed them from birth to the 1911 census. There are only about 20 that I cannot pinpoint, and this is one of them. I assume this is her because the others were from Wales or Southern England.
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If she didn't know her place of birth - as you say is evident from other censuses - then I wouldn't attach much significance to a "dittoed" pob on one particular census! Probably just what the enumerator put when writing up the schedule!
She is hardly likely to have reliably remembered it for one census only.
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The fourth line down on "Where born" is supposedly the birthplace of my great grandmother. It has been indexed as "Manchester, Lancashire." She was a servant in this household. As far as I can tell from other records, she did not know her exact place of birth, as the only other place given never existed.
The other census I have is the: 1901 census
Annie Richards, age 25, domestic servant, birth place Hythe, Lancashire.
Hello
There are clearly commas (ditto marks) under both "Do" [ditto]. The marks are not struck through. Also, when doing these marks a line is sometimes placed either side of ditto marks. I don't see this as being struck out, but as ditto, or as above.
I would be inclined to check large scale 19th Century maps of Manchester and Lancashire, to see if there was a local place, or area, called or known as Hythe.
There was a HYDE in Cheshire, East of the old City of Manchester.
Only the First Edition 1", hopefully Hyde will display.
http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/maps/series?xCenter=3229203.77852&yCenter=3018941.32599&scale=63360&viewScale=181417.4208&mapLayer=nineteenth&subLayer=first_edition&title=Ordnance%20Survey%20and%20Ordnance%20Survey%20of%20Scotland%20First%20Series&download=true
The Census Enumerator calls, the person says, or spells it as 'Hythe', the Enumerator says Kent, the person says "no near Manchester", the Enumerator puts down Manchester, Lancashire.
If no local place of Hythe in Lancashire can be found, then I wondering if it is HYDE which became part of Greater Manchester and Greater Manchester tends to be considered as Lancashire, but some of these places were historically Cheshire.
I have wondered and felt that the boundaries of Cheshire, Lancashire and the old City of Manchester and its surrounding villages, tends to be a bit vague in the minds of some people back then.
Mark
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I agree that is probably Hyde. Bushinn1746's comments are so right. Sometimes the boundaries in the south Manchester area can cause a few inaccuracies. It would be no surprise to me at all that someone would state their place of birth as Hyde but when asked where that was might reply "it's near Manchester" which is correct though inaccurate (if you see what I mean). I have also come across records where the person was born in Salford but gives their place of birth as Manchester which strictly speaking is another city entirely but situated on the other side of the River Irwell.
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Hello
There are others (unrelated) who claim their Birthplace as "Hythe Lancashire" in the Census, so we'll check one and see what Registration District is given.
1861 Census (info from FS)
Adam Bottom CASTLE, Son, age 6, Scholar, born Hythe, Lancashire.
Born about 1855. Bottom I believed was a transcription error and it is.
Looked up in Free BMD
Adam Cottam CASTLE, born 1854 in the Registration District of STOCKPORT.
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/stockport.html
STOCKPORT Registration District spans LANCASHIRE and CHESHIRE.
Mark
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The fourth line down on "Where born" is supposedly the birthplace of my great grandmother. It has been indexed as "Manchester, Lancashire." She was a servant in this household. As far as I can tell from other records, she did not know her exact place of birth, as the only other place given never existed.
The other census I have is the: 1901 census
Annie Richards, age 25, domestic servant, birth place Hythe, Lancashire.
Could this be her with the Brett couple in 1881 at Hainault Road, Low Leyton Essex (District of West Ham), her Mother remarried?
1881
Annie Richards Step Daughter [to the Head], 5 yrs, Born, Manchester, Lancashire.
Got this off Family Search, so the transcription against image of the original and Household members need checking against the information you have already.
If this is the one? You should be able to get the Marriage Certificate (some are already scanned online with FH sites).
But you did speak of two children, one being a male?
Mark
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This is the Brett marriage
Marriages Dec 1880
Brett Francis William Yarmouth 4b 53
Richards Mary Alice Yarmouth 4b 53
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I thought I turned off comments for this? Whatever.
She is not Annie Brett. I have followed Annie Horsely Richards (later Brett) and she married around 1897 in Sussex. I have followed ALL Annie Richards born between 1874-1876.
There is no record of an Annie Richards born in Hyde, Cheshire or any nearby districts between 1870 and 1880.
The census was done in the workhouse. From what I have read, institutions like work houses did not question the inmates. They just put whatever was in their records. Some of places if birth on this workhouse census give addresses rather than places.
I do appreciate a fresh view into this, but I have hired local researchers who are baffled by this case, as my family has been for 80 years.