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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: toby webb on Sunday 04 February 18 18:15 GMT (UK)

Title: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Sunday 04 February 18 18:15 GMT (UK)
I am just about able to read some of the english text, but at the end of the will the text changes to latin. I imagine that this part may well be pretty standard and I might find a likely transcription and even a translation if I knew where to look. Can anyone help? Thanks, Toby.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: goldie61 on Sunday 04 February 18 21:21 GMT (UK)
Can't help with finding a standard form Tony, but why don't you post it on here - someone will be able to help.  :)
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: Old Bristolian on Sunday 04 February 18 22:15 GMT (UK)
It will be the probate which was formulaic and in latin at this time. The useful things to recognize are the executor's name and relationship, if any to the testator
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Sunday 04 February 18 22:22 GMT (UK)
Taking the advice of Goldie61, yer tiz ( as they say down in the west)

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61333/47286_p5_02reg_00068_a_tcl/58318?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dWiltshireWills%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsln%3dhornblow%26gsln_x%3dNP_NN_NS%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3dz95%26ti%3d5538&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 04 February 18 23:11 GMT (UK)
Probat(um) fuit testame(n)tu(m) suprascriptu(m) Roberti Horneblowe
defunct(i) nup(er) p(ar)ochie de Hurste Juris(dicio)nis peculiaris
decanalis Sar(um) cora(m) mag(ist)ro Joh(ann)e James in legibus
baccal(aurea)t(o) offi(cia)li d(omi)ni decani Sar(um) xvo die mens(is) Julij
Anno D(omi)ni 1570 Ac p(er) ip(su)m app(ro)bat(um) &c com(m)issaq(ue) fuit &c
Executric(i) &c in p(er)sona Ricardi Powell p(ro)cur(atoris) sui
l(egi)time constitut(i) &c iuratí &c Salvo iure cuiuscu(m)q(ue) &c


The above-written will of Robert Horneblowe, deceased, lately of the parish of Hurst in the Peculiar Jurisdiction of the Dean of Sarum, was proved before Master John James, Bachelor of Laws, Official of the Master Dean of Sarum, on the 15th day of the month of July in the year of the Lord 1570, and approved by him etc., and granted etc., to the executrix etc., in the person of Richard Powell, her lawfully constituted procurator etc., sworn etc., saving the rights of whomsoever etc.

=====
Generally, when asking for help with transcribing, it's best if you can post a snippet rather than a link, so that everyone has access, not just those with subscriptions.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Monday 05 February 18 16:14 GMT (UK)
     I really must thank you so much for that transcription and translation. Much more than I ever hoped for.
     I take your point about strings and subscriptions but felt I was going to be in trouble with copyright if I had shown the actual text. Not at all clear about my position.
    Thanks once more, Toby.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: Bookbox on Monday 05 February 18 17:03 GMT (UK)
You're welcome. My understanding is that small sections can be posted to help with deciphering, but not entire documents.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Wednesday 07 February 18 12:26 GMT (UK)
I have a few words which would help me to make better sense and would be grateful for help. This is the first.Thanks, Toby.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: Bookbox on Wednesday 07 February 18 12:29 GMT (UK)
ffyrst (= First)
Two small fs are often used for a capital.
The final character is a st ligature.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Wednesday 07 February 18 12:48 GMT (UK)
Wonderful. Many thanks. I am learning something. How about this. The second highlighted word is in actual fact the next line. Toby.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: Bookbox on Wednesday 07 February 18 12:54 GMT (UK)
sycke (= sick)

It's a 'long s' at the beginning.

The letter that looks like r is actually c.

I'll try to find you an alphabet to work from.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: Bookbox on Wednesday 07 February 18 13:03 GMT (UK)
This one might be close enough, but if I can find a better one I'll post it ...

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/doc7_popup/alphabet.htm
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Wednesday 07 February 18 16:34 GMT (UK)
Thanks. 'Sick' makes sense but the words of the first phrase are quite possibly not common words and so are more difficult. The alphabet is helpful but nowhere do I see anything remotely like  Robert Hornblowe of Hurst, Berkshire which was the title of the will. More homework required. T
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: horselydown86 on Wednesday 07 February 18 16:46 GMT (UK)
The line before (with the section in the red boxes) is:

...Horneblowe of the p(ar)ishe of hurst...

hurst is the word immediately to the left of the second red box.

In relation to the word p(ar)ishe, the descender of the p is crossed over itself.

This indicates letters have been omitted, usually -er or (as in this case) -ar.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: Bookbox on Wednesday 07 February 18 17:31 GMT (UK)
To add a note to HDís explanation above ...

In handwriting of this period, the letter h has a long looped descender, making it look more like a g or y. This is what you see at the beginning of hurst. Relatively little of the letter is above the line, unless itís joined to a preceding long s, as in p(ar)ishe.

This sort of hand is not easy reading if you're new to it, but recognising the letters does come with practice, and if you need more help Iím sure people will oblige.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Wednesday 07 February 18 21:16 GMT (UK)
Thanks Bookbox & horselydown86. Getting like a tutorial and I am starting to look at things differently. The lack of capital letters in so many cases makes things more difficult.
Line 6 in this will contains many repeated letters but even then the most I have got out has been
 "afforesaid" & "and". Pretty pathetic really so would be pleased for more help.
Thanks, Toby.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: Bookbox on Wednesday 07 February 18 21:56 GMT (UK)
... w(i)thin the Church yerde of hurst aforsaid It(e)m I geve and ...
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: goldie61 on Thursday 08 February 18 06:01 GMT (UK)
Just to say, you are allowed to post SECTIONS of a document on here - don't think you are restricted to  just the odd line. Just not supposed to post the  whole document, (though that has been done sometimes! although the moderators might remove it as it breaches copyright.)
If you want to post a 'chunk' to get into the swing of it, there will be people who can transcribe this. As Bookbox says, once you get to recognise the letters, this handwriting you have here is not too difficult.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Thursday 08 February 18 09:46 GMT (UK)
Glad to hear that goldie61 but I will try not to be too lazy so will have a good go before I return for more help/ T
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: formysons on Thursday 08 February 18 12:10 GMT (UK)
Hello Toby

Martyn Webb here, do you have Webb ancestors living in Tipton Staffs around 1927ish in particular one called William??
If so I would be very interested to know because i have hit a dead end with his parents all i can find is two marriages with "Father = John" my branch went up to West Yorkshire Coal mining, first into Monckton, and then Brierley, between Cudworth and Hemsworth.
My parents met at the end of WW2. Mum being a Devonian decided to stay here, our generation is now scattered all over the country.

I look forward to you reply.

Regards
Martryn C Webb
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Friday 09 February 18 20:59 GMT (UK)
Sorry Martryn but Toby Webb comes from a ballad about a highwayman. You have my sympathy and best wishes for some good luck. Like many others, I know what brick walls are like. T
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Friday 20 July 18 14:22 BST (UK)
Thought it about time I enlisted more help. I must try to complete this Hornblow Will as there are more in the queue.

" my wife.........."
Thanks, Toby.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: Bookbox on Friday 20 July 18 15:44 BST (UK)
... my wife my howse att myryhill so longe ...

* = Merryhill ?
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Friday 20 July 18 19:27 BST (UK)
Thanks Bookbox. Your suggestion of Merryhill seems a good one. There is a Merryhill Green fairly close to Hurst.
Goldie61 suggested that I put a chunk of the will up. Perhaps to make more sense to others who are trying to learn the skill. So here goes. Many thanks T
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 20 July 18 22:27 BST (UK)
bequeath unto Jone my wife my house att myryfill so longe
as she lyvith And after her decease to Jone my daughter
Itm I geve my howse at wades crosse with all the landes belonginge
thereunto unto Jone my wife duringe her liffe And after her
decease to remayne to Rycharde my sonne  and his heires for
ever Itm I will that Jone my wife shall paye unto Ph(ili)p (?) my
sonne and Margaret my daughter betwene them when they


I think it's 'Philip'. A contraction of a name. Do you know if he had a son Philip, Tony?
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: Bookbox on Saturday 21 July 18 00:47 BST (UK)
I read the son's name as John. I think the last letter is distorted by interference from a very long f in the line above. Admittedly, there is an unexplained stroke below the first letter of the name. But looking at the whole will (from the link given above, reply #3), son John appears again a few lines below. I don't think it's a contracted Philip. There are capital Ps elsewhere (in the probate clause) which look different from this.

I can see why the location in line 1 might be read as myryfill, but comparing the quite distinctive letters f and h in this hand, I would stick with myryhill (as suggested above).
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: goldie61 on Saturday 21 July 18 08:11 BST (UK)
Ok Bookbox. John it is then.
My mistake in 'Myryhill' - I did think it was that and not really an 'f'!  :)
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Saturday 21 July 18 12:55 BST (UK)
Thanks to you both. Unfortunately I don't know anything about  Robert but he is certainly the earliest Hornblow I have found in that part of the world. I certainly want male Hornblows in order to keep the name going. John is a family name although Samuel is much more popular. I have not seen a Philip. On the other hand I have come across a Jeronimo!
I really am most grateful for that chunk and so will renew my own efforts, but will probably come back with more.
T
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Friday 27 July 18 09:51 BST (UK)
I think I have bitten off more than I can chew. Whilst I can make out individual words, I find I cannot make connecting sense. I think I must turn to more recent wills to get a sense of words used and then try something harder. Meanwhile I would be most grateful if someone could finish off this will and let me put it to bed. Many thanks, Toby.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Friday 27 July 18 10:00 BST (UK)
I omitted, goldie61, to say that the O.S. 25 inch map of 1889 shows
       "Ward's Cross"
 just over a half mile north of Hurst where Hornblow had lived. T
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 27 July 18 11:39 BST (UK)
Lin13.
sonne and Margaret my dawghter betwene them when they
come to the aige of xxj yeres & xli of lawfull englishe money
out of my howse at Wades Crosse And if itt fortune that my wife
dye before the my children come to xxj yeres of aige then I
will that Richard my sonne shall paye the x li aforesaid to my two
children John and Margaret. The Residw of all my goddes not
bequeathed nor geven my detts pade and  my body honestly browghte
unto the grownde I geve and bequeath to Jone my wife whome I make
my whole Executrix of this my last will and testament thes beinge
witnesses John Cawkquell curate Ralffe goswell michaell towesse (?)
with others


Bit difficult to see if the wife is Jone or Jane - you may have it already in a different bit of the will.
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Friday 27 July 18 12:33 BST (UK)
Thank you so much goldie61. I am convinced it is "Jone" there being one very clear entry in the text. Other names, particularly witnesses, I don't know and do not have to hand at this moment any Hurst parish records. Job for my next trip to Reading. T
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: Vance Mead on Friday 27 July 18 13:44 BST (UK)
Here is a slightly earlier Hornblowe (or the same man?), in Hilary term 1548, not very far away, in Falley/Fawley, Bucks.


Bucks
Bucks. Robert Hornblowe, of Falley, husbandman, attached (goods or property seized) to answer John Doyly for trespass breach of close at Falley.


http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/E6/CP40no1135/bCP40no1135dorses/IMG_2229.htm
Title: Re: Berkshire Will of 1560
Post by: toby webb on Friday 27 July 18 14:16 BST (UK)
That is very interesting and I shall make a note of it although I hope it is a red herring for I am trying to link Hornblows with Thatcham, Berks and then to Cirencester and Broad Blunsdon in Wiltshire. There were some in London too. T