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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Deskman on Tuesday 06 February 18 15:05 GMT (UK)

Title: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Deskman on Tuesday 06 February 18 15:05 GMT (UK)
Any help with the xxxs, text and related text here is much appreciated.

The bold text is thanks to help here.

"Boy wants it altered, compares very favourably with Mrs Bowkers
  vinegary  sour kind of snaps at poor old B. I think
old B thinks I’m rather upsetting his household getting xxxxxx
 to my rooms & out to football so often, so for the
"

Fine folks here are brightening my transcription from dark uncertainty to wonder. Thank you.
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 06 February 18 18:23 GMT (UK)
 For xxxx sour   my eyes read it as vinegar sour  ???
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Deskman on Tuesday 06 February 18 19:32 GMT (UK)
That's sparkling observation bbart. Thank you.

That makes total sense as these lines from the diary show; "Still likes & appreciates Old B. tho’ like me and everybody else can’t bear Mrs B." and "Mrs B, who for all her sanctity I believe has a horribly sour temper, she got quite in a fine wax last night because Old B. didn’t answer her at all about a lamp."

 
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 06 February 18 21:27 GMT (UK)
Hi again,

I'm starting to think that snaps is correct, and what he is meaning is that the boy, much like Mrs. Bowker, talks to Mr B by snapping in a sour vinegary way.

As to the getting xxxxx part, take another look at "getting".  To me, it looks like an L and a T, so perhaps he reversed the letters, and meant "greatly", as in, he is upsetting the house greatly, by xxxxx = stalling in his room and going out often to football. Perhaps he hid out in his room and went out often, when they expected him to contribute to household chores?

By the sounds of Mrs. Bowker, I think I would hide out in my room too!

Anyways, food for thought!
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Karen McDonald on Tuesday 06 February 18 22:06 GMT (UK)
I think you have a point, bbart! It could well be "greatly".
The word after it is bugging me. As we know, his handwriting often leaves a lot to be desired, but somehow it's not a typical "s" at the beginning, even by his standards. And what's all the squiggling at the end?  ???

As regards the first section, I think I see:
Boy wants it altered, compares very favourably with Mrs Bowkers
vinegary sour kind of snaps at poor old B.

Just my two penn'th...  :)

Karen
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 06 February 18 22:41 GMT (UK)
As we know, his handwriting often leaves a lot to be desired, but somehow it's not a typical "s" at the beginning, even by his standards. And what's all the squiggling at the end?  ???

Karen, do you think perhaps, in regards to the S, that he first wrote a small s, then added a line to make a capital?  ???  It does look odd!
I figured the squiggle at the end was from him trying to fit the word in at the edge of the paper, although I can't actually tell how much more room there was.
The word bugs me as well, as if it is "stalling", he should be stalling "in" his room, not "to" his room, in today's language.  Who knows what it meant back then!

This fellow's writing is difficult, as he is so inconsistent with how he makes letters, lack of punctuation, etc.  I suppose he was just jotting notes quickly at the end of the day, not knowing many years later, poor Deskman would be having to decipher it!
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Deskman on Tuesday 06 February 18 22:55 GMT (UK)
Dear bbart and Karen McDonald thanks for your thoughtful analysis and suggestions.

It does look like vinegary.

The text may infer that the author is boarding in the house but he is not. His rooms (not room) are at nearby house with another landlady.

The author does not have the excuse of a tight margin, this is one of the most relaxed pages with only 315 words. See pic.

I should make it clear that the Boy wants it altered, is not about the Bowkers. That refers to the Wood household. This text compares Miss Wood with Mrs Bowker.

The text after getting could be a reference in some way to the younger members of the household including those who played football in the same team as the diarist.
Their names include
William E
Ashley H
Constance M
Arthur Gerald
Henry W

Thanks again, Deskman



Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 06 February 18 23:29 GMT (UK)
Deskman, thanks for the clarification; I did think that he lived in the same household.

Do you know if the football team had a name?  Maybe the word we are struggling with is a team name?
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Karen McDonald on Wednesday 07 February 18 08:19 GMT (UK)
Karen, do you think perhaps, in regards to the S, that he first wrote a small s, then added a line to make a capital?  ??? 
The word bugs me as well, as if it is "stalling", he should be stalling "in" his room, not "to" his room, in today's language.  Who knows what it meant back then!

I wondered that about the "s", too. The lack of full stop is nothing unusual for hm.  :)

I see it the same way as you with "stalling", too. The squiggle at the end reminds me of something in one of Deskman's other snippets. I am (supposed to be  ;D) working at the mo, so I'll take a closer look this afternoon.

All very mysterious.                     

Karen
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Deskman on Wednesday 07 February 18 09:49 GMT (UK)
Yes mysterious.

I don't think any possible team name works here,

Could the second word be  fcalling?

I offer the 'calling on' below as support.

The first word is so mysterious. Freely? I attach a free and freedom in hope they might be comparable.


Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Karen McDonald on Wednesday 07 February 18 10:45 GMT (UK)
Hmmm... I don't know.  ???

I had been wondering whether it was "filthy", but I can't see as that would fit. Also, I can't see an "f" there. OK, so his letters vary wildly, but it looks like a "g" to me. Compare with our jolly girls  :):
(http://up.picr.de/31752959su.png)

What about guilty/guiltily (?)

Second word:
I agree that stalling/calling/whatever does look as though it has been amended, but it really does look like a beautifully clear "t" and 2 x "ll". Having said that, his "t" is NEVER as clear as that!  :D

I wondered about "stealing" (guiltily stealing to my rooms...), but the letters don't fit. (Not that that means much..!  :o ;D)
 
The squiggles at the end are occupying my time. There is something similar in Chapel:
(http://up.picr.de/31752960gk.png)

With that one, we never did manage to come up with a suggestion. The most obvious word would be "and", but why would he write a "d" like that?

The head-scratching continues...

Karen


Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Deskman on Wednesday 07 February 18 19:09 GMT (UK)
Dear Karen McDonald,

Yes, head scratching.

I think we need inspiration. Are there any word forms you would like to see?
I can't find a guilt in the diary but there is a guinea (in my Tubbs posting) and lots of greats; here are the first two examples and the last two examples.


Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: arthurk on Wednesday 07 February 18 20:02 GMT (UK)
'stalling' was sometimes used to mean 'living' or 'dwelling', but also 'stopping' or 'sticking' - see OED and Wright's Dialect Dictionary. So I wonder if what Bowker was thinking was that the writer was upsetting the household in two separate ways - first by keeping to his room, and second by going out to the football:

...old B thinks I'm rather upsetting two household _______ stalling in my room & out to football so often

So might the mystery word be something meaning 'rules' or 'conventions'?
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Deskman on Wednesday 07 February 18 20:14 GMT (UK)
Now that's a new light arthurk. Thank you.
I don't think it is a two. Two is one of the few words that is written clearly!
Examples below.

 
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Greensleeves on Wednesday 07 February 18 20:20 GMT (UK)
Been following these threads without contributing, but I think he was upsetting the household greatly   stalling (staying) in his room & out to football etc.

Regards
GS
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Deskman on Wednesday 07 February 18 20:45 GMT (UK)
Thanks Greensleeves,

Thanks for contributing.

Greatly has been discussed and not forgotten.

However there are problems, the diarist is not lodging at the rectory, rather at another nearby household.

The S like character I don't think is an S by this hand. Here are three examples of staying whi has some commonality with stalling

Feeling stuck.
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Deskman on Wednesday 07 February 18 21:45 GMT (UK)
Hi, Just in case it helps any of you fine folk the diary sentence ends

...out to football so often, so for the present am “living low & sayin nuffin”

BTW 'living low & sayin nuffin' is a reference to Brer rabbit of Uncle Remus, His Songs and His Sayings: The Folk-Lore of the Old Plantation, by Joel Chandler Harris, 1881 which the diarist had been reading in recent days.

Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: bbart on Wednesday 07 February 18 22:08 GMT (UK)
Thanks for adding the ending, Deskman.  It does help, as I was starting to wonder if the "stalling" part was a new thought and not related to the Bowker issues.

More thoughts on the word that looks like "stallxx" :
He always seems to just put "g" for "ing", so what if the final squiggle that looks like a "y" is a second "abbreviation".  Assume the first part of the word is stall, just to clarify what I mean:  with two shortened sections, he is spelling out Stallingxxxy. I can't think of a word that it would make, but perhaps it's a name?

Also, could the first letter (the weird S)  be a capitol E?
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Deskman on Wednesday 07 February 18 23:48 GMT (UK)
Thanks bbart,

I am working on your ideas.

Meanwhile here is a new image of the two mystery words - taken with very bright light and at high res.

Would images of words ending with 'lling' be useful?
'Calling' already appears in an earlier reply above.
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Deskman on Thursday 08 February 18 00:45 GMT (UK)
bbart's interesting suggestions have led me to look at all the possible names in the diary but with no potential matches.

The 129 capital Es in the diary vary considerably.

One is Etc in the  1889 diary p15 Chapel 1 topic.
Others are here.

Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Deskman on Thursday 08 February 18 01:56 GMT (UK)
The first mystery word must be getting

There 9 'gettings' in the diary.

These two examples evidence.


Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: bbart on Thursday 08 February 18 02:22 GMT (UK)
If the first word is getting, it shows that some letter t's are uncrossed and loopy, like a small L.

This would mean one or both of the L's in the second word could be t's.   ::)

Looking again at the first letter of mystery word 2:
 I followed (with my cursor) how he wrote it.  If you do that to almost all the known small s's, you will see how he writes it much like handwriting the numeral "2", and that is the same as the letter in question, except he put a C over it.  It seems odd that he would correct an error, when it all seems to be hurriedly entered text.

I'm trying to figure out what he could be doing in his room to lie low.... reading, writing, etc,  and nothing is coming near to that word.  How old is this fellow?  Maybe it is some game to pass time, as in cards??

I'll look again with fresh eyes tomorrow; maybe I will have an epiphany and get it!
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Karen McDonald on Thursday 08 February 18 08:36 GMT (UK)
I woke up thinking about this thread this morning..!  :o

Still no epiphany for me, unfortunately.

I'm working on it, though!  :D

Thanks for clarifying "getting", Deskman.

Karen
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Deskman on Thursday 08 February 18 13:11 GMT (UK)
Epiphany!

"...getting G calling to my rooms..."

The writer's capital Gs are varied. See below.

G would be Arthur Gerald - known to the diarist as Gerald. Gerald (aged 14) was a member of the writer's literary society which met in his rooms and a member of the football team.

Thanks to arthurk, bbart, Greensleeves and Karen McDonald. Your persistence has been so powerful.

Unless anyone has the will to look further topic completed  :)


Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Karen McDonald on Thursday 08 February 18 13:32 GMT (UK)
Aha! :D

Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: arthurk on Thursday 08 February 18 13:54 GMT (UK)
Now that's a new light arthurk. Thank you.
I don't think it is a two. Two is one of the few words that is written clearly!

OK, I'm behind the times and you've cracked it, so well done everyone.

Anyway, just returning to the word before 'household', which I don't think anyone has mentioned since Deskman's comment: I didn't think it looked like the (2nd letter not tall enough), so my next guess was two. Looking at it again today, I now think it's his.
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: josey on Thursday 08 February 18 14:11 GMT (UK)
Spot on arthurk, have been watching these threads but haven't yet had anything to contribute  ;D
Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: Deskman on Thursday 08 February 18 15:35 GMT (UK)
Thanks again one and all.

I have just realised that Gerald was not member of the literary society but he was in the same cricket and football teams.

Time to move on...

Title: Re: 1889 diary p26 Bowkers
Post by: bbart on Thursday 08 February 18 17:49 GMT (UK)
Well done!

Bring on the next puzzle!