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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: Lisajb on Wednesday 07 February 18 12:44 GMT (UK)

Title: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Lisajb on Wednesday 07 February 18 12:44 GMT (UK)
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/science-environment-42939192
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: mowsehowse on Wednesday 07 February 18 12:54 GMT (UK)
Isn't it remarkable that genome analysis can tell eye colour? 
I wonder if his siblings had blue eyes too - he might have been the only child of the parents that had blue eyes.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Wednesday 07 February 18 17:28 GMT (UK)
I must admit I did wonder exactly how they can decide on the actual eye colour! Fascinating, though.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: mowsehowse on Wednesday 07 February 18 17:53 GMT (UK)
I must admit I did wonder exactly how they can decide on the actual eye colour! Fascinating, though.

Yes. Fascinating....
I have been thinking about it, perhaps he was seriously unusual to have such dark skin with blue eyes - the two don't normally go together surely?
If he was, he might have been regarded as a demon, or used for a sacrifice, or perhaps respected as a leader and chieftan.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Lisajb on Wednesday 07 February 18 17:57 GMT (UK)
There does seem to be a possibility he met with foul play, according to this report.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Erato on Wednesday 07 February 18 18:05 GMT (UK)
Thanks, interesting article.

It took me back to 1959.  One of the few clear memories I have of visiting the English relatives is the trip to Cheddar Gorge.  I remember the caves and the cheese but not Cheddar Man.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: KentishChris on Wednesday 07 February 18 22:49 GMT (UK)
Great article, a fascinating read!

Although, I have to say, my favourite bit is definitely the tweet from 'TheRandyCheddarman', "If they don't call this Cheddar Man 'George', I'm not playing anymore".

 ;D
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: nowornever on Thursday 08 February 18 01:22 GMT (UK)
and last night on tv they interviewed a direct descendant of Cheddar Man , who still lived in the area,.  traced through. DNA. Remarkable!
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: pharmaT on Thursday 08 February 18 05:34 GMT (UK)
I must admit I did wonder exactly how they can decide on the actual eye colour! Fascinating, though.

A person's eye colour is determined by a number of genes with some genes modifying the expression of others.  Eye colour can therefor be determined by examining exactly what combination of these genes the person has.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: mowsehowse on Thursday 08 February 18 09:35 GMT (UK)
and last night on tv they interviewed a direct descendant of Cheddar Man , who still lived in the area,.  traced through. DNA. Remarkable!

 :o That IS remarkable!
What programme was it on?
I would love to try and find it.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Flattybasher9 on Thursday 08 February 18 10:03 GMT (UK)
Dark skin = "Smoked Cheese"  ::) ::)

Malky

Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: nowornever on Thursday 08 February 18 10:37 GMT (UK)
and last night on tv they interviewed a direct descendant of Cheddar Man , who still lived in the area,.  traced through. DNA. Remarkable!

 :o That IS remarkable!
What programme was it on?
I would love to try and find it.

As usual I was flitting through channels but certain it was a News report, and think it was BBC
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Gillg on Thursday 08 February 18 11:26 GMT (UK)
Yes, it was the BBC News at 6 and 10 pm last night (Wednesday 7th).  The chap reckoned he had a certain facial likeness to Cheddar Man, but I couldn't see it, though they did both have blue eyes!
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: groom on Thursday 08 February 18 11:33 GMT (UK)
Forthcoming tv programme

First Brit: Secrets of the 10,000 Year Old Man will air on Channel 4 on 18 February
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Alex Edge on Thursday 08 February 18 12:31 GMT (UK)
Is this man what was originally called the “Red Lady of Pavaland” or something similar?

Alex Edge
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Jill Eaton on Thursday 08 February 18 12:36 GMT (UK)
Is this man what was originally called the “Red Lady of Pavaland” or something similar?

Alex Edge

No. I believe Paviland is in Wales. The skeleton was about 33000 years old and was actually male.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: mowsehowse on Thursday 08 February 18 14:42 GMT (UK)
Brilliant.
Thanks All.
I shall book my seat for the 18th Feb.  :D

You can listen to an interview about it here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w172vr0slsv5z1f


Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 08 February 18 16:41 GMT (UK)
I remember watching a program a few years back where they talked about doing the DNA test to see if they could find living relatives, they decided to test a school class, they had 20 test kits but on the day there was only 19 children in the class so they tested the teacher as well and he turned out to be the one related to Cheddar Man.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Redroger on Thursday 08 February 18 17:19 GMT (UK)
There does seem to be a possibility he met with foul play, according to this report.

Does the big hole in the top of the skull have nything to do withe this possibility?
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: LizzieW on Thursday 08 February 18 17:32 GMT (UK)
Ha, ha.  On the programme I saw, they were making a large hole on the top of his head to extract DNA.  I'm not sure why it had to be such a large hole though.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Redroger on Thursday 08 February 18 17:37 GMT (UK)
It looked to me Lizzie as though an existing hole had been extended!
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: LizzieW on Thursday 08 February 18 17:41 GMT (UK)
You could be right.  I like the theory that if he was dark skinned and really did have blue eyes that the other people might have thought he was a demon or something.

It's amazing what DNA can tell you, I hadn't realised it could tell the colour of your skin, the colour of your eyes and even - looking at the model that's been made - how long his hair was.  ::)

Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Sinann on Thursday 08 February 18 18:14 GMT (UK)
Did I misread that link, I thought one of the points they made was that everyone would have had dark skin at that time.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: groom on Thursday 08 February 18 18:23 GMT (UK)
Did I misread that link, I thought one of the points they made was that everyone would have had dark skin at that time.

That's what I understood, in which case he wouldn't have stood out as looking any different.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: mowsehowse on Thursday 08 February 18 22:15 GMT (UK)
But isn't the evolutionary purpose of dark skin to protect against the UV rays from the sun? Which is also the reason that most people with dark skin have brown, not blue, eyes.  In which case, surely blue eyes and dark skin would not be usual?
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: youngtug on Thursday 08 February 18 23:19 GMT (UK)
Blue eyes are a mutation that is without a reason.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: groom on Thursday 08 February 18 23:38 GMT (UK)
It will be interesting to see what is said on the programme, whether they think all dark skinned people at that time had blue eyes or whether it was just him. If so, how can they be absolutely sure that all people living at that time were dark skinned? Looking forward to watching it - I must set it to record.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: youngtug on Thursday 08 February 18 23:43 GMT (UK)
Quote
"Originally, we all had brown eyes," said Professor Hans Eiberg from the Department of Cellular and Molecular Medicine. "But a genetic mutation affecting the OCA2 gene in our chromosomes resulted in the creation of a "switch," which literally "turned off" the ability to produce brown eyes." The OCA2 gene codes for the so-called P protein, which is involved in the production of melanin, the pigment that gives colour to our hair, eyes and skin. The "switch," which is located in the gene adjacent to OCA2 does not, however, turn off the gene entirely, but rather limits its action to reducing the production of melanin in the iris -- effectively "diluting" brown eyes to blue. The switch's effect on OCA2 is very specific therefore. If the OCA2 gene had been completely destroyed or turned off, human beings would be without melanin in their hair, eyes or skin colour -- a condition known as albinism.
From here; https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080130170343.htm
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Thursday 08 February 18 23:54 GMT (UK)
Fascinating stuff, will defo be watching the programme!

Think there is lots more in future years that will be revealed in DNA research, past & present. 

Cas
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Sinann on Friday 09 February 18 00:42 GMT (UK)
Do come back and tell those of us that won't be able to see the program. Please.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Cas (stallc) on Friday 09 February 18 00:46 GMT (UK)
Do come back and tell those of us that won't be able to see the program. Please.

Will do, am sure lots of Rootschatters will be up for discussion  :o  :)

Cas
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: mowsehowse on Friday 09 February 18 08:00 GMT (UK)
Quote
"Originally, we all had brown eyes," said Professor Hans Eiberg from the Department of Cellular and Molecular Medicine. "But a genetic mutation affecting the OCA2 gene in our chromosomes resulted in the creation of a "switch," which literally "turned off" the ability to produce brown eyes." The OCA2 gene codes for the so-called P protein, which is involved in the production of melanin, the pigment that gives colour to our hair, eyes and skin. The "switch," which is located in the gene adjacent to OCA2 does not, however, turn off the gene entirely, but rather limits its action to reducing the production of melanin in the iris -- effectively "diluting" brown eyes to blue. The switch's effect on OCA2 is very specific therefore. If the OCA2 gene had been completely destroyed or turned off, human beings would be without melanin in their hair, eyes or skin colour -- a condition known as albinism.
From here; https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080130170343.htm

OK. Thank you. Really interesting.... but after this "creation of a "switch," which literally "turned off" the ability to produce brown eyes."  What happened then? Because on a global scale now the vast majority of humans have brown eyes, I think?

Not sure how reliable this information is:
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-distribution-of-eye-colors-in-the-world
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Friday 09 February 18 15:25 GMT (UK)
That's what I meant earlier on in this post ... so much of the surface appearance of these reconstructions seems a little speculative, is it really possible to establish firmly the colour and tone of skin, and the texture and colour of hair, from dna samples? Could it be that the specimen, known and handled for so long, may even have held on it dna from other, later people in museums, etc.?
Mind you, I'll be there watching the programme, with the rest of you!
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Lostris on Friday 09 February 18 15:38 GMT (UK)
That's what I meant earlier on in this post ... so much of the surface appearance of these reconstructions seems a little speculative, is it really possible to establish firmly the colour and tone of skin, and the texture and colour of hair, from dna samples? Could it be that the specimen, known and handled for so long, may even have held on it dna from other, later people in museums, etc.?
Mind you, I'll be there watching the programme, with the rest of you!



Great care is taken about 'contamination' - and in this case, they retrieved DNA from one of the tiny bones in the inner ear cavity, so should be good ....
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Friday 09 February 18 16:32 GMT (UK)
Ah, thanks for that - it's quite unlikely the inner ear bone's innards could be contaminated, then, isn't it?
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: pharmaT on Saturday 10 February 18 17:52 GMT (UK)
Quote
"Originally, we all had brown eyes," said Professor Hans Eiberg from the Department of Cellular and Molecular Medicine. "But a genetic mutation affecting the OCA2 gene in our chromosomes resulted in the creation of a "switch," which literally "turned off" the ability to produce brown eyes." The OCA2 gene codes for the so-called P protein, which is involved in the production of melanin, the pigment that gives colour to our hair, eyes and skin. The "switch," which is located in the gene adjacent to OCA2 does not, however, turn off the gene entirely, but rather limits its action to reducing the production of melanin in the iris -- effectively "diluting" brown eyes to blue. The switch's effect on OCA2 is very specific therefore. If the OCA2 gene had been completely destroyed or turned off, human beings would be without melanin in their hair, eyes or skin colour -- a condition known as albinism.
From here; https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080130170343.htm

OK. Thank you. Really interesting.... but after this "creation of a "switch," which literally "turned off" the ability to produce brown eyes."  What happened then? Because on a global scale now the vast majority of humans have brown eyes, I think?

Not sure how reliable this information is:
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-distribution-of-eye-colors-in-the-world

This mutated gene is recessive which means that if someone carries the non-mutated gene then the switch to produce brown eyes will be on.  ie the individual has to inherit the 'blue eye gene' from both parents.  So someone with brown eyes could carry BB or Bb.  I have brown eyes, my ex had blue eyes, our daughter has blue eyes.  This means I have the Bb gene and she inherited b from me, my other daughter has brown eyes  so inherited my B gene. 

Note before anyone comments: this is a missively simplified explanation, I am aware that eye colour is overall a muti-allele characteristic.  Just attempting to explain in simple but scientific terms why brown eyes still outnumber blue.

Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Erato on Saturday 10 February 18 21:24 GMT (UK)
"If you have brown eyes, you'll be happy to know that researchers have found the higher melanin content in your eyes is associated with a number of health benefits.  ...   But it's not all good news for people with brown eyes."

http://www.allaboutvision.com/conditions/eye-color-brown.htm

[Full disclosure:  I have brown eyes.]
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: brigidmac on Sunday 18 February 18 07:10 GMT (UK)
I dont have a TV and am going to comedy festival tonight so cant watchbit at someone elses house . so will be very grateful if you comment on  what you think of program


Thanks forcadding radio link mows
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: davidft on Monday 19 February 18 09:22 GMT (UK)
Well there was a lot of speculation in that that wasn't backed up satisfactorily IMO.

I was disappointed they did not reveal what his haplogroup was seeing as the female who did the drilling on the skull (forget her name. Its Selina Brace, thanks to the link provided by alpinecottage ) said the results they got were very good.

I do not believe the Natural history Museum has 350 scientists working on things. Did I mishear?

The £200,000 DNA evaluating machine was interesting and led me to thinking it would be good to have a documentary programme taking a genealogy DNA test through from taking the test to evaluation of the results and presentation to the "owner" and what assumptions they draw along the way.

Oh and I see Ancestry were involved in the DNA analysis too. Don't know if it was wise to advertise that!

As for him being black so what, we all know we originally come from Africa (unless you are a creationist) and what colour do you think they were.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: groom on Monday 19 February 18 10:10 GMT (UK)
Quote
.  Oh and I see Ancestry were involved in the DNA analysis too. Don't know if it was wise to advertise that!
         

I noticed that, they made a point in showing the box didn’t they? Is that now going to make everyone who buys the Ancestry DNA kit think they will get back that far?
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: davidft on Monday 19 February 18 10:13 GMT (UK)
Quote
.  Oh and I see Ancestry were involved in the DNA analysis too. Don't know if it was wise to advertise that!
         

I noticed that, they made a point in showing the box didn’t they? Is that now going to make everyone who buys the Ancestry DNA kit think they will get back that far?

Well you just know its only a matter of time before Cheddar man turns up on someone's Ancestry tree .....
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: alpinecottage on Monday 19 February 18 10:36 GMT (UK)
Here is the link to the abstract of the pre-print of the paper that describes the work - Cheddar man was just one of 73 Mesolithic and Neolithic individuals studied.  (Pre-print means it has not been peer-reviewed yet, but all the people who worked on it or advised are listed).  From the abstract you can download the pdf of the whole paper, free of charge and no signing up for anything.  https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/02/18/267443

It is a clear accessible report, with some diagrams - any specific technical words or phrases that I didn't understand are clear (enough) from the context. 

The most significant points are 1. All Mesolithic hunter-gatherers across the whole of Europe were very similar genetically.  2. Farming was introduced to Europe by waves of migrating peoples from Anatolia, who were genetically different. 3. When the Neolithic (farming) started in Britain, it did so about 1000 years after it had started in N France, Belgium etc. and the genetic make-up of the Britain changed quite abruptly at that point. 
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Jill Eaton on Monday 19 February 18 12:39 GMT (UK)
I found the program oddly incomplete.

Chedder Man isn't "The First Brit". There is evidence for Neanderthals (apparently) in Britain and even if Chedder Man IS the most complete skeleton there is enough evidence from earlier finds, such as the Red "Lady" of Paviland, to be able to tell a lot about their build and what they ate.

Even in the program they said they'd tested older DNA from Britain as they know Cheddar man isn't a direct descendant.

Strange that they didn't clarify where the earlier humans came from exactly and if they also had blue eyes and dark skin.

I realise they only had an hour but there was so much more I wanted to know
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Alberbury on Monday 19 February 18 13:25 GMT (UK)
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/learn/story-of-england/prehistory/


EARLIEST HUMANS

Flint tools found in 2010 near Happisburgh in Norfolk have been dated to about 900,000 years ago, pushing back the earliest identified human occupation of Britain by up to 100,000 years. Their users were among the hominids (early humans) who periodically visited Britain (which was then not an island, but joined to mainland Europe), sometimes over long periods, in warmer eras between successive Ice Ages.

The oldest human remains so far found in England, at Boxgrove in Sussex, date from about 500,000 years ago, and belonged to a six-foot tall man of the species Homo heidelbergensis. Shorter, stockier ‘Neanderthals’ visited Britain between 300,000 and 35,000 years ago, followed by the direct ancestors of modern humans.

These Ice Age humans created the earliest known cave art in England at Creswell Crags, Derbyshire, about 13,000 years ago.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Skoosh on Monday 19 February 18 15:49 GMT (UK)
The Ice-Age wiped that slate clean, the Cheddar Guy is the first Brit (hate that expression) post the big freeze. He's now the big cheese post the big freeze!  ;D

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: pharmaT on Tuesday 20 February 18 10:27 GMT (UK)
Big cheese  ;D
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Llwyd on Tuesday 20 February 18 12:48 GMT (UK)
He's now the big cheese post the big freeze!  ;D
Skoosh.

It's enough to make you truckle -  ::)
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Flattybasher9 on Tuesday 20 February 18 13:36 GMT (UK)
Having watched the program 3 times (recorded) I am unimpressed with it. Too much speculation. They stated first man, then went on to say that they had human bones from hundreds of years previous. Blue eyes evolved as a reaction to sunlight in the upper hemisphere. Therefore, was this persons parents a blue eyed Scandinavian and a dark skinned Spaniard? The "cannibalised" bones showed tooth marks. Perhaps, as is now with rodents etc and deer antlers, they gnawed them for minerals, ie calcium. I will watch it again, but I think that the program makers were very amateurish in their production. It may have been better if it had been screened over 3 or 4 episodes, showing far more detail, such as the American input, and less of the Dutch. The face was reconstructed using current forensic algorithms. How do we know that they are relevant to a person who would have a totally different diet to ours, or a totally different way of life.

I may return to this subject.

Malky



Ps, this Cheddar man was a Mason.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: silvery on Tuesday 20 February 18 14:00 GMT (UK)
I found it a very unsatisfying programme, going and on about the face reconstruction, which we have all seen before.   I felt it was done primarily for the American market.  There was no analysis of bones, for his diet, occupation etc.     
It was quite shallow I thought.   Basically a half hour programme extended with padding and adverts. 
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: ThrelfallYorky on Tuesday 20 February 18 15:09 GMT (UK)
My thought too was that it was 30 mins worth, well padded out, and with several rather sweeping statements that were not really explained. Not as good as I had hoped.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Erato on Tuesday 20 February 18 15:11 GMT (UK)
"I felt it was done primarily for the American market."

ROFL.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Skoosh on Tuesday 20 February 18 15:48 GMT (UK)
I thought the Cheddar man looked very like the Dutch brothers who made him up, deffo some connection!  ;D

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Jill Eaton on Tuesday 20 February 18 18:10 GMT (UK)
Did anyone else find the cartoon people both irritating and patronizing?

And I don't care whether our early ancestors had luminous green skin with purple spots but I wouldn't expect a scientist to imply that all early inhabitants of Britain had that particular colouring from just one individual example!
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: davidft on Tuesday 20 February 18 18:25 GMT (UK)
Did anyone else find the cartoon people both irritating and patronizing?

And I don't care whether our early ancestors had luminous green skin with purple spots but I wouldn't expect a scientist to imply that all early inhabitants of Britain had that particular colouring from just one individual example!

I thought they were the highlight of the programme and quite funny.

Perhaps I am too easily impressed  ;)
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: silvery on Wednesday 21 February 18 04:10 GMT (UK)
"I felt it was done primarily for the American market."

ROFL.

I didn't think the comment was quite that amusing.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Sinann on Wednesday 21 February 18 07:43 GMT (UK)
I'm crossing this program off the must see someday list, it sounds like a how we did it rather than what we found and what it means program, pity.
Thanks for letting us know.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: silvery on Wednesday 21 February 18 11:38 GMT (UK)
I'm crossing this program off the must see someday list, it sounds like a how we did it rather than what we found and what it means program, pity.
Thanks for letting us know.

That's a good summary of the programme.    There was no analysis at all.   
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Ruskie on Wednesday 21 February 18 12:27 GMT (UK)
I thought the Cheddar man looked very like the Dutch brothers who made him up, deffo some connection!  ;D

Skoosh.

Your comment, Skoosh, brought to mind the facial reconstructions in the series "History Cold Case" of which the majority bore a remarkable resemblance to their creator Caroline Wilkinson:
https://www.ft.com/content/cffb15ea-a742-11e4-8a71-00144feab7de
 ;D
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: jc26red on Wednesday 21 February 18 14:44 GMT (UK)
I thought the Cheddar man looked very like the Dutch brothers who made him up, deffo some connection!  ;D

Skoosh.

I thought that too..  I find it hard to believe that using modern day algorithms they can come up a realistic  portrayal of an ancient human.

Davidft, the haplogroup apparently was first announced in 1996 when the first dna was extracted, but was thought to be contaminated. Now it seems the Natural History Museum is also quoting the same haplogroup, which I assume must be correct as it's from another sample of dna which wasn't contaminated.   (Mitochondrial U5b1)

The NHM website is a little more realistic to the findings
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/our-work/origins-evolution-and-futures/human-adaptation-diet-disease/cheddar-man-faq.html

So they haven't actually found out anything new about Cheddar man  since the first DNA was extracted in 1996, athough the understanding of DNA migration has and still is evolving with each new find.
 
The whole programme  really revolved about the forensic reconstruction of the head with some padding. Totally dumbed down with appropriate padding for extra commercial breaks for the international market (sorry Erato ;D )

Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Skoosh on Wednesday 21 February 18 15:48 GMT (UK)
"Mirror, Mirror on the Wall!" folks!

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: mike175 on Wednesday 21 February 18 16:01 GMT (UK)
While I agree with the comments about lack of serious scientific content in the programme, I do find these forensic reconstructions fascinating. Looking at a heap of bones, or even a well preserved skull, I find it impossible to visualise the living person. I'm sure there is some artistic licence in the finer details but the basic anatomy is fairly well understood, so I believe the general proportions are accurate. One thing we will probably never know is whether they shaved or had a haircut, or had tattos all over their faces, earrings, or other piercings like many modern day hunter/gatherers . . .  :-\

Like a lot of our TV output, it was 15 minutes of interesting information squeezed into an hour  ::)
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Skoosh on Wednesday 21 February 18 21:42 GMT (UK)
We're very lucky that de-coding the DNA has happened in our lifetime & old bones now tell their story!

"The dead will open the eyes of the living!"   Cunninghame Graham.   

Skoosh.
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: silvery on Wednesday 21 February 18 23:28 GMT (UK)
The eyes and skin tone immediately reminded me of this photo -  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Girl

Lots of Near Eastern people have pale eyes.   
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Redroger on Tuesday 27 February 18 15:55 GMT (UK)
The eyes and skin tone immediately reminded me of this photo -  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Girl

Lots of Near Eastern people have pale eyes.

Wasn't that something to do with 1) The Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, and 2) Kidnappings by Arab raiders along the south west coast of England?
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: davidft on Friday 02 March 18 14:48 GMT (UK)
Well what do you know, seems there was not enough data after all to say what colour his skin was

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5453665/Was-Cheddar-man-white-all.html

But now, one of the main scientists who helped create the reconstruction of his 10,000-year-old face says he may not have been black at all.
Geneticist Susan Walsh at Indiana University–Purdue University Indianapolis, says we simply don't know his skin colour.
While her computer model shows being black is his 'probable profile', DNA testing is not advanced enough to say for certain.


And of course if you are comparing Cheddar man's markers with people from Papua New Guinea well what colour did you think they would suggest .....
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: youngtug on Friday 02 March 18 17:43 GMT (UK)
From this article;https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23731673-200-does-cheddar-man-show-there-is-such-a-thing-as-bad-publicity/

Quote
According to the state of knowledge at the time, the genetic analysis did suggest that Cheddar Man’s skin was dark. But science progresses, and since the analysis was done last year, many more genes affecting skin colour have been discovered. Understandably, the new science did not make it into the documentary.

To add insult to injury, the story has now been seized upon by alt-right activists on social media. Many denounced the original conclusion as propaganda, with the “liberal media” and their cronies in academia twisting the truth to justify multiculturalism. This is blatant and hysterical nonsense, but it is the kind of fake news that can be halfway around the world before the truth has got its boots on.

Scientists are understandably hungry for the funding and publicity that a TV documentary can bring, but they need to be more savvy about what they are getting themselves into. TV companies want people to watch their shows; science news outlets cannot resist a juicy story; trolls will be trolls. Whenever science is done by press release, it is science that usually comes off worst.

Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Redroger on Saturday 03 March 18 14:52 GMT (UK)
On the issue of skin colouration there is apparently (or was during the 1960s, techniques may have iimproved) a situation where a person undergoing a form of chest surgery may accidently have their skin colouration changed. Perhaps someone can confirm the existence of this condition?
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Redroger on Saturday 03 March 18 14:55 GMT (UK)
In his series "Meet the ancestors" Julian Richards had a face constructed usingthe skull of Cheddar Man as a basis. He then showed the product to people in the area some of whom said they knew people who looked like him in the immediate vicinity. Has any DNA testing been done on these people?
Title: Re: Cheddar Man's DNA
Post by: Kimbrey on Saturday 03 March 18 15:25 GMT (UK)
 As I understand it Cheddar Man's DNA results ( his Haplogroup was not made public) have yet to be released, the Scientific paper is currently out for "peer reveiw" before publication.

Kim